| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/6/2006 11:25:38 AM | One of the calls for punative action against Iran via UN economic sanctions or possible military attacks against its fledgling nuclear program, is based on the premise that Iran must not be allowed to develop even peaceful nuclear capability, because of its radical stance. As evidence they point to Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as having "threatened to wipe Israel off the map."
Turns out that the accusation is more debatable than fact.
In a recent article written by Juan Cole he says:
I object to the characterization of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as having "threatened to wipe Israel off the map." I object to this translation of what he said on two grounds. First, it gives the impression that he wants to play Hitler to Israel's Poland, mobilizing an armored corps to move in and kill people. But the actual quote, which comes from an old speech of Khomeini, does not imply military action, or killing anyone at all.
The second reason is that it is just an inexact translation. The phrase is almost metaphysical. He quoted Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." It is in fact probably a reference to some phrase in a medieval Persian poem. It is not about tanks.
So it was not even an original statement but a quote from the past.
He made an analogy to Khomeini's determination and success in getting rid of the Shah's government, which Khomeini had said "must go" (az bain bayad berad). Then Ahmadinejad defined Zionism not as an Arabi-Israeli national struggle but as a Western plot to divide the world of Islam with Israel as the pivot of this plan.
The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."
Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope-- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government.
Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that "Israel must be wiped off the map" with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people.
On the matter of how this statement has been amplified beyond proportion as a proof that the Iranians can not be trusted with nuclear technology.
As for the matter at issue, Ahmadinejad is a non-entity. The Iranian "president" is mostly powerless. The commander of the armed forces is the Supreme Jurisprudent, Ali Khamenei. Worrying about Ahmadinejad's antics is like worrying that the US military will act on the orders of the secretary of the interior. Ahmadinejad cannot declare war on anyone, or mobilize a military. So it doesn't matter what speeches he gives.
Moreover, Iran cannot fight Israel. It would be defeated in 72 hours, even if the US didn't come in, which it would (and rightly so if Israel were attacked). Iran is separated by several other countries from Israel. It has not attacked aggressively any other country militarily for over a century (can Americans say that of their own record?) It has only a weak, ineffective air force. So why worry about it?
What is really going on here is an old trick of the warmongers. Which is that you equate hurtful statements of your enemy with an actual military threat, and make a weak and vulnerable enemy look like a strong, menacing foe. Then no one can complain when you pounce on the enemy and reduce his country to flames and rubble.
It is obvious that powerful political forces in Washington are fishing for a pretext to launch a war on Iran,
And far from being worried about Ahmadinejad
they are just delighted to have Ahmadinejad as cartoon villain and pretext.
On the inherently radical nature of the Iranian people that can not be trusted:
.... they had a moderate, reforming president in Mohammad Khatami for 8 years, and ( the US) just blew off all his overtures to the West. Iranians organized big candle-light vigils for America after September 11, in sympathy!
Washington never gave the reform movement the slightest encouragement, perhaps in hopes that the Iranians would be forced to turn right again and form a proper object of US hatred. If so, they got their wish last summer, when Ahmadinejad used the same dirty techniques to get elected as had George W. Bush.
I'd bet most American citizens didn't know that was the case post 9-11, they would have no way of knowing those things because it doesn't fall in with the propaganda line that America has all of these 'enemies' that we need to 'defend ourselves from'.
No matter that .... the usual suspects fan the flames for war. To which Jaun Cole gives the following advice.
All the warmongers in Washington, should get this through their heads. Americans are not fighting any more wars in the Middle East against toothless third rate powers. So sit down and shut up.
One, two, three, four! We don't want your stinking war!
So sit down and shut up, American Enterprise Institute, and Hudson Institute, and Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and American Heritage Institute, and this institue and that institute, and cable "news", and government "spokesmen", and all the pundit-ferrets you pay millions to make business for the American military-industrial complex and Big Oil.
We don't give a rat's ass what Ahmadinejad thinks about European history or what pissant speech the little shit gives.
Just as I don't give a rats ass what Patrick Clawson thinks about European history or what little pissant speeches the odius **** gives in response.
Just opposite sides of the same coin.
darjeeling | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/6/2006 5:34:52 PM |
did it matter that iraq had or did not have wdm? same story here. if it's not true, we will bend it until it become true.
I'm not so naive to believe that my posting on these issues will persuade anyone from changing their minds. Perhaps it may at best plant a nascent seed of doubt to counterbalance the continual call to arms contained in the official propaganda line being promoted in the US media:
On the necessity that we prevent Iran from aquiring nukes, at any cost.
Still, I want it stated publicly on the record, at what risk, and at what cost, and for what reason .... we eventually do so.
Setting the record straight may also serve to later erase the anticipated standard defense of those who obediently aquiese to government control: 'We did not know.'
I'll be able to look at those of future generations, who are grapling and struggling with the predictable future results .... that I did what I could to expose the present irrationalities, that I did what I could to stop them.
darjy | |
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NateC
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Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 6 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/6/2006 7:25:22 PM | This is also not the first time Iran has been misquoted. While their leaded is a world-class a$$hole, there was another misquote that stated that Iran was denying the holocaust, when in fact they were denying Israel the right to use that as an excuse for their warcrimes. Huge difference.
Being the uber-Jew I am (although a non-practicing one; pork is my friend and god doesn't exist and all that jazz), I get pretty sick of my relatives using that as a justification for hit s and helicopter attacks, too. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/8/2006 8:40:59 AM | | I am having a hard time trusting anything that comes out of Iran, no matter who translates it. When they had that bogus election the whole world gave them undeserved props for it. Undeserved because they forced the man elected out of office just to keep the militants from going nuts and killing more people. That caused them to lose any credibility whatsoever as to even caring what their own people want. Seems like quite a barbaric dictatorship no matter what they call themselves. After so many years of them trying to exterminate jews, I will never believe that they are going to leave them alone now. | |
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NateC
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Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 8 | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 9 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/8/2006 3:03:25 PM | After so many years of them trying to exterminate jews, I will never believe that they are going to leave them alone now.
Actually, Iran has a long standing Jewish minority, some of whom trace their ancestry in Iran back over 1,000 yrs. The Jewish population of Iran enjoys legal protections and even have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament. Kind of lends credence to the notion that the Iranian president was refering to the oppression of Muslims in Israel rather than the extinction of the Jewish population of the middle east doesn't it? | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/8/2006 5:01:05 PM | Kind of lends credence to the notion that the Iranian president was refering to the oppression of Muslims in Israel rather than the extinction of the Jewish population of the middle east doesn't it?
Standup point. However I believe the Jews would rather welcome back the Romans than deal with Muslems in Isreal, and the Muslems just wish WWII never happened and Isreal was never made a Jewish state. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/9/2006 7:51:01 AM | "Kind of lends credence to the notion that the Iranian president was refering to the oppression of Muslims in Israel rather than the extinction of the Jewish population of the middle east doesn't it?"
NOPE. See above post where I stated I don't believe anything they SAY anymore. Actions speak louder than words at this point. | |
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| Ahmedinijad, mossad put a fatwah on you the day you became president
Posted: 5/9/2006 9:48:38 AM | To Ahmedinejad a.k.a Shitler the 2nd-
You were not too quick to correct any alleged misquotes about wiping Yisrael off the map, were you.
You weren't too hasty to dispell any confusion about your holocaust revisionist commentary.
You have the world's 3rd largest oil deposits in the Caspian but for some reason you need enriched uraniam to provide energy for Iran? very logical indeed.
Just as Yassir Arabfat used the transliteration complexeties of Arabic to spew his mantra of *the death of a child shahid (suicide bomber) in a jewish neighborhood is beautiful* to rally his terroristic thugs in Fatah and appease jihad islami and Hamas, while preaching peace to the world; so too Ahmedinejad , you will always have a handful of fools, purporting your Farsi has been falsified as part of a greater zionist conspiracy.
Ahmedinejad, your every whereabout is known; the new eros satellite can zoom in on 75 cm spaces & send real time digital camera quality photos of every letter you sign in Natanz, Tehran or Shiraz back to Tel Aviv Intel HQ.
mazel tov for making yourself no 1 on Mossad's hit list
i'm sure this serves your naricissism nicely
 PS. enjoy your ascension to 72 virgin male Sherpas when your nuke program is *wiped off the face of the earth*  | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 14 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/9/2006 1:44:27 PM | NOPE. See above post where I stated I don't believe anything they SAY anymore. Actions speak louder than words at this point.
Let's see, the Jewish population of Iran holds GUARANTEED seats in the Iranian parliament, Iran has minority protection laws SPECIFICALLY protecting Jews in Iran, Iran has NEVER attacked Israel or made a declaration of war on Israel. Those sound an awful lot like ACTIONS rather than words to me. All points posted in this thread so far.
but I guess literacy and logic aren't graduation requirements at Bill & Ted's Most Excellent On-line University. | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 15 | |
| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/9/2006 2:12:35 PM | Frankly, everyone down there is sick of Israel using the holocaust to justify their actions. It happened and happened by Germans and definitely not by Persians.
The Jewish community in Iran actually goes back to over 2500 years and of all of the human empires that affected the people of Israel, the Persians did something rather unique - they permitted the return of the people of the southern kingdom of Judah to Israel 70 years after their exile by the Babylonians under King Nebuchadnezzar. | |
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| Ahmedinijad, mossad put a fatwah on you the day you became president
Posted: 5/11/2006 6:09:07 AM | @ Wilber
Just as Yassir Arabfat used the transliteration complexeties of Arabic to spew his mantra of *the death ...; so too Ahmedinejad , you will always have a handful of fools, purporting your Farsi has been falsified as part of a greater zionist conspiracy.
Professor Juan Cole is a recognized scholar of mideast studies by almost any criterea and as a matter of course, understands 'the transliteration complexities of Arabic' and Farsi.
What are your credentials in that regard? Do you speak or read Farsi?
In other words, why should anyone trust your judgement, on this (or any other) matter, over that of a recognized scholar in this feild?
Ahmedinejad, your every whereabout is known; the new eros satellite can zoom in on 75 cm spaces & send real time digital camera quality photos of every letter you sign in Natanz, Tehran or Shiraz back to Tel Aviv Intel HQ. ...mazel tov for making yourself no 1 on Mossad's hit list
You are, entitled to your personal opinions, of course, no matter how biased, or skewed.
PS. enjoy your ascension to 72 virgin male Sherpas when your nuke program is *wiped off the face of the earth*
Obviously the incendiery hate rhetoric doesn't only cut one way, I find similar insulting diatribes scattered across the web everyday, always vilifying their latest Arabic hate object du juor .... what ever is currently being served ... the flavor is always the same.
Is it any wonder that the Iranians might someday wish for a deterent defense against the most strident voices like yours from being the sole nuclear power in the mideast?
darjeeling | |
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| Ahmedinijad, mossad put a fatwah on you the day you became president
Posted: 5/11/2006 11:37:28 PM | To those who do not know:
Iran is the world's greatest sponsor of terrorist activites. They are the backbone of Hizbullah and the serpent's head of jihad Islami -better known as Islamic Jihad. Recently two batallions of revolutionary guards posing as nomadic bedouins were airlifted to Khartoum to make their way up through the transparent border with Egypt and Sudan to finally penetrate the Rafiach border in Gaza where terrorists and arms smugglers have freedom of movement, in anticipation for eventual penetration into the negev and to solidify terrorist activity against Israeli towns north of Gaza like Sderot and Nahal Oz.
Eretz Yisrael is already at war with Iran,
so any alleged pre-emptive strike by Israeli F-15I's against nuclear facilities in Iran could hardly be of any surprise to their fascist regime. The US holds the element of surprise....Yisrael will provide the logistical support to the coming raid. Ahmedenijad wants a head on war with Yerushalyim, not the US. That is why he is trying to evoke harsh responses from the IDF with his repetitive calls for Israel's destruction. He also wants to worsen US-muslim ties by linking his comments about Israel to subsequent US pressure to relinquish his nuclear plans (an attempt to try and expose the US as an unequivocal supporter of zionism) even to the most moderate of muslims -the Indonesians. What he doesn't have is an exit plan. He does not know how he will dodge the consequences of his radical actions. He knows he wants war, but he doesn't have an escape route.
Ahmedenijad, once war begins, you will lose your presidency, and you will become a free range chicken for Mossad to pluck out of a pen and cook up in time for next Pesach.
like I said before...Mazel Tov to the hotheaded shitler impersonator
you do not know what you are up against | |
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| Ahmedinijad, mossad put a fatwah on you the day you became president
Posted: 5/12/2006 6:19:26 AM |
you have to agree the US must do everything it can to stop the proliferation of Nuclear weapons.
Yes, I do, No One needs nuclear weapons. If everyone could get on board with that, the world will be a far better place. Because as long as one nation has them others will feel threated and the only way for them to ensure their saftey is to get their own. And then the next guy wants them. And sooner or later someone will get caught between a rock and a hard place and deciede,
"what the heck!....... Push the button. I've got nothing to lose, so screw everyone else!"
Thus I think the US should set an example and shut down their nuclear weapon building, to show the rest of the world that a true Super Power, don't need no stinkin nukes. | |
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NateC
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Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 20 | |
| Ahmedinijad, mossad put a fatwah on you the day you became president
Posted: 5/13/2006 4:53:11 PM | Hey will25ber, can you fly an f-15? If not, shut the hell up. Leave the tough talk to the people who are actually capable of acting. Even then...do yourself a favour and read more than Israeli rhetoric.
There's something you need to know, will. We (Canada) had peacekeepers in Israel and Palestine up until the 60's. We pulled them because our commanders used the "conscientious objector" clause because they were sick of the hate rhetoric coming from BOTH sides, and basically refused to die for either Israel or Palestine anymore.
However, that Islamic Jihad crap...no, that's Saudi Arabia who funds most of that, actually, iirc. It's Saudi Arabia that funds most of those groups. Not Iran, Iraq, Syria or Jordan. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 21 | |
| Ahmedinijad, mossad put a fatwah on you the day you became president
Posted: 5/13/2006 6:27:10 PM | | For crying out loud, it's bad enough having the the ultra-right white-supremacy fascists crawling out from under the rocks in the language threads. Now we have the national-messianic revisionist zionism fascists poking their heads out too? Achimeir is dead, leave his fascist crap in the grave with him already. | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/14/2006 12:00:36 PM | After reading this whole thread I sat back and thought about what I could do to help us all just get along and stop all the hate and war in the world. So I placed in a John Lennon CD and an OZZY CD in my CD player, turned up the volume and played one song from each CD. Imagine by John Lennon And then Dreamer By OZZY.
Ummm why are there still hate and wars and no one still doesnt get along after I played these two songs?  | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 24 | |
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| Setting the Record Straight on Wiping Israel Off the Face of the Map
Posted: 5/14/2006 4:53:01 PM | 'PEACE NOW' cannot occur in the midst of relentless homicide bombings by Islamic Jihad, sponsored by a pseudo-sovereign Palestinian leadership of Hamas terrorists. Your idealsism will go nowhere without pragmatism.
The Palestinians bring their own suffering upon themselves. There would be no checkpoints constraining their lives, had they not initiated terrorist activities; the same can be said about the 6 arab initiated wars over the past half century. They had the chance to choose peace repeatedly...they chose war with Yisrael.
If they want peace; they must come to the realization that Yisrael will never succumb to islamo-fascism as they perceive America to be doing right now in Iraq.
PEACE NOW- is desirable, but practically, it is unachievable when Yisrael is flanked by 22 arab dicatatorships and theocracies, many of which are funding the terror attacks that take place within Eretz Yisrael. | |
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