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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 MUSICMAYKER
Joined: 4/4/2006
Msg: 1
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?Page 1 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Can everybody please just stop thinking for a moment as Republicans or Democrats!! Pro-war and Anti-war, and just think what our Fore-Fathers would have done in this situation we find ourselves in the middle of with all this turmoil in the Middle-East? Should we in all honesty...just ignore the fact that over 3,000 American People were attacked and killed on our own soil?? Terrorism is not going to just magically stop!! Can we afford to just..."relax" and pull our troops out of all the rest of the worlds "HOT-SPOTS"?? Hope that "they" can work it all out or just kill each other??...How long would it really be, before "The Other", becomes "Us"?? Is not the price of our Freedom, measured by the blood that our people, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE..have shed in the past!!..and the blood that may be spilled in the future?? Now tell me straight-up!!...what should the price of our FREEDOM be?? FAITH/HOPE/LOVE ~DOC~

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 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 2
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 12:13:05 PM
I think we're free enough... when our president isn't eavesdropping on us when we speak our minds...

3,000 American lives were lost as what we like to call "Collateral damages" over there.. when it's not us... in what has to be called a counterattack against the US military for invading the middle east and continually bombing them and occupying their territory since the war was over. That was the purpose of the 911 bombings as stated by the people who did it. Of course, you know the Saudis asked us to leave after the Riyadh bombings, right?


We should have learned we can only bomb people for so long without expecting something to come back at us.

Look at all the bombings in those years we occupied the middle east. Look at all the civilian lives that were taken. Did you actually think nothing like 911 would or could ever happen? Did you think nothing like that would ever come back at us?

It's not so much "right" or "wrong" as it is just what anyone would expect.

How arrogant we are to act as if our nation never did anything to hurt anyone else and they just struck out of a clear blue sky with no reason....

We are and were AT WAR. That's just the way things are when you're bombing other nations on a regular basis, okay?

I think a more important question is "What ARE you talking about?"

Whose freedom were we fighting for in Vietnam?

The cost of freedom to them was 1 million soldiers and about 3 million civilians lives!

We lost 60,000 soldiers lives and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS crippled and wounded trying to keep them from having their own government... We seem to have forgotten that trying to control other nations from afar cost a LOT of the lives of good young men and women... who thought they were protecting their country... but were lied to... the same way Bush is lying now.

We GOT fooled again...
 rgraham666
Joined: 2/10/2006
Msg: 3
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 2:11:00 PM
I wouldn't object to America protecting itself from terrorists. And under the aegis of international law.

Unfortunately that's not what it's doing in Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And that invasion was the first unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation since Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Also to put things into perspective, about 3,000 people die every month from guns in the U.S. Why no 'War on Guns'?

And for further perspective about 6,000 people die every day in all the conflicts currently occurring in the world. And that's been happening everyday since the end of WWII. Why no 'War on War'?
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 4
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 5:07:23 PM
Democrats and Republicans all lie. It's the nature of politics and power anymore.
 Big Red Flag
Joined: 5/22/2006
Msg: 5
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 7:26:41 PM
The cost of freedom I find too high is that I have to endure the mindless blather of ignorant patriots making pleas for unity. I sometimes long for the noble silence of slavery, such as I imagine it to be.
 Indigo Rose
Joined: 12/14/2005
Msg: 6
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 8:38:00 PM
I think this is fitting~
The Cost of Freedom are the actions made by of all those who have given of themselves to defend freedom. This means the Veterans who have fought and all too often died throughout the history of our country so that the rest of us might live in peace.
 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 7
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 9:03:40 PM
I certainly haven't forgotten the cost of freedom, but I haven't forgotten the unnecessary deaths caused by American military adventurism either....
 dbndon
Joined: 7/15/2005
Msg: 8
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/23/2006 10:28:44 PM
.

"American's solemn duty is to constantly renew its covenant with humanity to complete the grand work of human freedom that began two hundred years ago. This work, in its grandness and nobility, is not unlike the building of a magnificent cathedral. In the beginning, progress is slow and painstaking. The laying of the foundations and the raising of the walls is measured in decades rather than years. But as the arches and spires begin to emerge in the air, others join in, adding their faith and dedication and love, to speed the work to its completion. My friends, the world is that cathedral. And our children, if not we ourselves, will see the completed work -- the worldwide triumph of human freedom, the triumph of human freedom under God."
--Ronald Reagan, 1991

.
 Big Red Flag
Joined: 5/22/2006
Msg: 9
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 1:31:24 AM
That is a metaphor for enslaving humanity. Self-governance is about freedom from, not unity under God. RR was a doorknob.
 passionteman
Joined: 3/7/2005
Msg: 10
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 8:14:01 AM
OP: Don't interfere with other country's affairs, create problems for them, fund fundamentalist groups (ie. 7 Mujahideen Parties in Afghanistan, The Taliban) to eradicate and fight established governments, then you wouldn't other people attacking you either. Why isn't anyone attacking Canada, Australia, and all these other countries?
 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 11
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 8:32:10 AM


"American's solemn duty is to constantly renew its covenant with humanity to complete the grand work of human freedom that began two hundred years ago. This work, in its grandness and nobility, is not unlike the building of a magnificent cathedral. In the beginning, progress is slow and painstaking. The laying of the foundations and the raising of the walls is measured in decades rather than years. But as the arches and spires begin to emerge in the air, others join in, adding their faith and dedication and love, to speed the work to its completion. My friends, the world is that cathedral. And our children, if not we ourselves, will see the completed work -- the worldwide triumph of human freedom, the triumph of human freedom under God."
--Ronald Reagan, 1991

Wow!!!

THAT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!

Is that why his administration sold biochemical weapons to Saddam or financed Salvadoran death squads to murder nuns?

... and I thought it was just purely evil...

How ignorant of me...
 VioletSkye
Joined: 1/3/2006
Msg: 12
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 9:43:42 AM

Can everybody please just stop thinking for a moment as Republicans or Democrats!! Pro-war and Anti-war, and just think what our Fore-Fathers would have done in this situation we find ourselves in the middle of with all this turmoil in the Middle-East? Should we in all honesty...just ignore the fact that over 3,000 American People were attacked and killed on our own soil?? Terrorism is not going to just magically stop!! Can we afford to just..."relax" and pull our troops out of all the rest of the worlds "HOT-SPOTS"?? Hope that "they" can work it all out or just kill each other??...How long would it really be, before "The Other", becomes "Us"?? Is not the price of our Freedom, measured by the blood that our people, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE..have shed in the past!!..and the blood that may be spilled in the future?? Now tell me straight-up!!...what should the price of our FREEDOM be?? FAITH/HOPE/LOVE ~DOC~


As it stands the freedom we have is just a facade. We're in a place we have no place being and doing something that GW shouldn't have started (lied about) in the first place.

And no, we shouldn't ignore the fact that 3,000 people died. I'll never forget. Nor will many others. Good ol' George needs to start looking in his own back yard and clean up all the mess he has here. We're going in the toilet, fast.
 VioletSkye
Joined: 1/3/2006
Msg: 13
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 9:44:36 AM

Wow!!!

THAT IS BEAUTIFUL!!!

Is that why his administration sold biochemical weapons to Saddam or financed Salvadoran death squads to murder nuns?

... and I thought it was just purely evil...

How ignorant of me...



They think we forget.


You still rock. ;)
 Thievery Corp
Joined: 11/20/2005
Msg: 14
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 11:02:37 AM
My sense from history classes, which is vague admittedly, was that our founding fathers didn't want to project a sphere of influence, they just wanted to survive and live without control of the foreign influence...and apart from reacting to a direct threat to our soil wouldn't have done anything internationally...but the world is a very different place now...

I really struggle when people talk of strategies which talk about wiping out terrorist regimes in premptive and proactive ways to protect freedom. For one, striking first doesn't seem like a very "Christian" cheek turning thing to do; but mostly because I've lost faith in our ability to understand/categorize these "enemies"...and the disrespect for international law the U.S. has shown. Are sovereign nations free to exercise their own belief and political systems within their own borders? Who are we to be the self appointed UNILATERAL enforcer of the world? People are best lead when they follow leadership, not are ordered around encased in a dictatorship.

The web of history of support for regimes, overthrowing regimes, selling arms to support the enemy of my enemy which seemed like a friend...etc. is complex, and certainly riddled with mistakes and justifications like "if we didn't sell it to them someone else would've..." And it means it is almost always possible to keep digging and find some reason for supporters of each side to justify the escalations...well, if they didn't take this land, sell these arms, give money to____ forty years ago,....

It is said here in the U.S. if you don't like the law, lobby to change it...but you need to follow the law unitl it's changed so let your voice be heard...yet the U.S. seems to have acted unilaterally outside the international law it would seem. (As have others, btw) Could it have been done within the system? Could the system be changed to become relevant again? What future are we working towards if we don't come to an INTERNATIONAL DEMOCRACY??? Can we be indignant when other soveriegn nations also pick and choose what parts of international law to follow?

Everybody likes proactive movers and shakers, proactive is a good word...until you apply it to changing other people through force in what are supposedly "sovereign nations". At the same time, if we, or anyone had direct knowledge that something was brewing, say a plot to attack the U.S. or anyone's home country...the people/organization would certainly desire proactive/pre-emptive action. I don't want to stick my head in a hole in the ground (or any other hole for that matter) and ignore problems.

The failure of intelligence re: WMDs, the Big Brother culture, the disregard for International Law and Coalition Building to act the bully on the world's playground is backfiring horribly. Without lawful conduct at home or internationally we are nothing. Then again, the U.N. has certainly not been even and fairhanded in many issues, and what sovereign nation's peoples will stand by and let the U.N. dictate what is best for a country??

While on the other hand post 9/11 I was totally for dishing out a serving or two of WhoopAss to those parties that were responsible, or those that supported those parties in any way... that were responsible for the attacks...in retrospect I'm not sure where we have and haven't done the right thing. If we've really unearthed and squashed terrorist training camps in Afghanistan or elsewhere that sounds great to me...but when is one man's rebel another man's freedom fighter?

The trend toward terrorism seems to parallel in some ways the shift of fighting from organized lines to "guerilla" style tactics in the Americas when we fought the British for our freedom...we were certainly characterized as animals/barbarians for not fighting by the rules. Today, people who engage in terror are labeled similarly, but I wonder when the U.S. has the nukes, the lasers, the drone aircraft, the constant information surveilance, etc., what other tools are left for these people to fight with? Nobody, or let's say very few people are going to stand up to the U.S. and try and go toe to toe over a piece of land anymore...

Yet another part of me took a step back and said Why were we the subject of those attacks?

So I haven't said much with authority, nor reached any conclusions...just expressed alot of confusions regarding what and why were doing all this....what are we really working towards in the end?? What democracy or freedom for people and the world's sovereign nations are we striving for?
 will25ber
Joined: 4/28/2006
Msg: 15
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 6:29:06 PM
to quote Goethe's couplet:

'Whatever you can do or dream, you can begin it.
: Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.' "

If the US stalls or fails to take initiative on acts of terror such as 911, if they equivocate in any way with them and act tentatively or delay plans to enact punishment on them and thwart their insidious plans, they have already declared they are not willing to defend their freedom and the justice of their people.

The US is taking the correct course of action in afghanistan and Iraq. Regardless of the political backlash and public perception

All action does not resemble the plan in entirety. The US may not be winning the hearts and minds of American voters, but by attempting to instill the values that have made the US great into nations which harbor and reward terrorists, they are upholding the values of their forefathers and honoring those who have fought gallantly for that purpose.

Now the US must not be held hostage to the repressive Saudi regime due to energy concerns.
Nor should political impotence weaken the US' resolve in toppling the tyrranical Baathist regime in Syria or the Iranian government led by fanatical and evil men.
 MUSICMAYKER
Joined: 4/4/2006
Msg: 16
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 7:27:58 PM
The US is taking the correct course of action in afghanistan and Iraq. Regardless of the political backlash and public perception

will25ber, Bam!!...another nail right on the head!! Way to go WWWiiiiLLLBBRRRRR!!!!! LOL!! It's either over there or over here!![that's my opinion!!] catch that 58!!??.. ya' still out here bro?? lol!!
 will25ber
Joined: 4/28/2006
Msg: 17
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/24/2006 8:02:31 PM
right on MUSICMAYKER-

Even though I am not American, I stand with Americans as their brother and friend and strong believer in the ideals of this great nation-

In USA; Faith, Love, Freedom and Justice are not up for sale as they are in the Middle East, with the exception of Israel.
 Hezron
Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 18
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/25/2006 12:30:58 PM
^^^^^^America does stand for faith love and freedom...but only within its own borders...if the freddom to live the lifestyle most are accustomed to means killing millions of people in other countries...well...that is the price for freedom.
 realpedro
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 19
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/25/2006 1:09:28 PM
hey MUSICMAYKER,so the US is taking the correct course of action in Iraq???

you are just one of those stupid,ignorant and craven americans!

why do you not f.uck yourself???

there are many innocent children who are killed by your craven soldiers whilst bombing everywhere.the moron Bush only cares about OIL and not freedom!

stop bragging you ignorant fool,if you and Bush really care about freedom and to free people from tyranny,why do you not attack North Korea,China or Iran??? those regimes are a lot worse than Iraq,in fact Iraq is just a poor country full of illiterate and hungry people

by the way,what does Iraq have to do with 9-11 or Bin Laden??? what do those children being killed have to do with it???

and last but not least,what do you mean by the "fore-fathers"??? do you mean those BRITISH (Washington,Jefferson,Franklin,etc) who fought against their own homeland (Britain) to create a new nation (USA)
 countryslim01
Joined: 10/19/2005
Msg: 20
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/26/2006 5:24:20 AM
Hey Pedro, Get Real Dude.... The US could carpet bomb for six Months and Never Kill as many innocent civilians as Spain has in its time.. Your Country is one of the Main reasons the World is so screwed up Now! The Warring Spanish Conquered, Enslaved and Killed Countless Numbers of people for Centuries, and For What? Land, Gold, Silver?

Your attitude is Hypocritical, don't You think?
 Thievery Corp
Joined: 11/20/2005
Msg: 21
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/26/2006 7:23:57 AM
@ CountrySlim:

if we all were kept from making good / better decisions because people in our past made bad ones, that would be the saddest state of affairs at all.

I agree that the U.S. is very selective, and has ulteriror motives when deciding where to take its freedom campaigns...otherwise we and or the UN would take the laundry list of "unjust" systems worldwide, put 'em on a priority list, serve notice that we're comin' and start whoopin' ass for freedom.

To say Spain is responsible for the why the world is so screwed up now is hard to swallow. Perhaps you believe in reparations for past sins...lets see, how many empires, how many milenia should we go back to decide those exact map lines and the true injustices?

If my parents raised me wrong, and I'm an adult now, should I be able to rely on telling people "that's why I'm screwed up" or do I have to grow up and follow the rules/laws others' do?

I really hope I misunderstood your post and your not implying the fact that because historically some people/countries behaved injustly throughout history is really the basis in your mind for deciding when/how/what "liberties" the U.S. takes now with other countries.
 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 22
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/26/2006 7:47:57 AM
I think this post is unclear on the concept of "freedom", because in Iraq and the Gulf War as well as in Viet Nam, we were not fighting for "freedom" of US citizens, but to keep control of nations OUTSIDE the US. What this has to do with freedom of US citizens... or freedom of the citizens in the countries we fought in has been very hotly debated if not at all a factor in these wars... except for maybe the freedom of our stooges to run the countries?

The question the OP started the thread with is a complex question which assumes we were fighting for freedom at some point in our lives, when there actually hasn't been a foreign military invasion of the United States in at least 150 years... and that's only if you count Texas, which wasn't even a state...

So how can we say we were fighting for "our freedom" unless an outside power was HERE, trying to enslave or restrict or attack us?

Is it restricting our freedom to keep us from installing a puppet government in Viet Nam without letting them have elections? or El Salvador? or killing the president of a nation which isn't friendly enough to us?

I think not.

It's like asking "Have you learned to stop beating your wife?"...

The rules of logic are that only if A AND B are BOTH true is A and B true.

The question itself is faulty logic.
 Always Smiling35
Joined: 7/1/2005
Msg: 23
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/26/2006 8:28:13 AM
^^good post.

Well said.
 TheBigDogg
Joined: 5/25/2006
Msg: 24
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/26/2006 9:20:40 AM
So whom is to say we are fighting for our freedom.
Can we not free other people in other countries who have been enslaved by dictators.

Like Saddam

If we were attack here in the USA would that not be defending freedom.
 Thievery Corp
Joined: 11/20/2005
Msg: 25
view profile
History
Have we as Americans, forgotten the cost of Freedom?
Posted: 5/26/2006 10:06:15 AM
I guess the "Whom" would have to be world courts and political organizations would be the ones to say that...since we acted outside their policies and procedures to build that tremendous coalition we have of support to supposedly "proactively protect our freedom"...might have gone over better if in the end, after however many years, there were some proof of the WMDs we used to justify our unilateral actions.

If you wish to make the case about freeing the enslaved as the real reason, then we have a huge shopping list of enslaved peoples to free worldwide, we better get crackin', or else it would appear to any rational analysis that there are ulterior motives to our freedom fighting liberation forces....




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Coming again, to save the mother f**king day yeah,"


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