| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 4:54:37 PM | I just recieved my papers from the FRO, For those outside of Ontario they are the organization who handle the transfer of funds between support payers and recipients. I feel a little railroaded by the way my particular situation unfolded and am struggling for answers.
To give a little background on this and i will try to be as brief as possible is my ex and i lived together for a couple of years and we had suffered a miscarraige of our first child while still unmarried, got married and had put together a plan to try again once we had managed for me to get a more stable job. She was just finishing extra courses at George Brown to enhance her career and had managed to pay off her outstanding school loans knowing it would increase our chances of getting a bigger mortgage. If any of you know real estate in Toronto is unrealistically high and unless you are willing to move to the outskirts of the city and commute it's tough to own these days. I was in the hospitality and tourism industry and really took a lot of hits when SARS and 911 happened but with no real education had a tough time switching to something else. We had our son and did what we had to do. We moved to a bigger place and had still managed to pour money into her rrsp's knowing we could eventually borrow against that to put a downpayment on a house. My Mom passed on three months after my son was born and that was tough on me but I got little sympathy from her and she felt that I was reneging on my responsibilities our son. Did I mention that we stopped having sex as soon as she was pregnant for fear of another miscarraige and that was also tough on me. We basically bacame roommates, no touching no love no relief for me what so ever ( that may sound selfish ) but it maddened me to hear from other men that I knew that their wives were never as horny as when they were pregnant. Needless to say the stress I was experiencing was unreal. One day she just sat down and said this isn't working. I personally feel it was post partum depression and financial worries on her part and no matter what I said fell on deaf ears and I got no support from her family on this either. Her father had always teased us that he was going to retire back to Equador and leave my mother in law with us and said he was going to seel some of the land they owned there to healp us out to buy a house large enough for all of us. She wanted out and I was still looking for work so I accepted a position in Kitchener. Just as I had managed to get set up with an apartment three months later she called crying that I should come home because a father should be with his son and she felt bad for treating me this way and that she still loved me. So now unemployed again I was forced to start all over AGAIN, managed a job but in no time at all she told me that she was leaving because she had lost respect for me and didn't love me anymore. We had just poured even more money into her rrsp's just recently too. Just prior to this I had intercepted a call from her bank, in reference to some loan but I didn't pry but it just didn't sit well. She left a couple of months later and took our son. She and her parents moved into a house together and she told me they were just renting. I always visited with my son as often as i could and always left at least a hundred dollars a week for her and my son. I accepted the separation but always thought that we could find a way to reconcile. I was still looking for more work and was offered a job in Kitchener again so I left.
Just as I was going to get hired after my probation period i was laid off two days before Christmas and a week later was hand delivered my divorce papers from my wife. I was broke and if anyone else knows the legal system is not really set up for men and was left with the decision of just not being able to fight her for custody. I had no job, I was living with my borither and his wife and things looked bleak. In my divorce papers she was obligated to enclose a financial picture of assets and she had purchased the home she and her parents were living in. She used the money WE had put into her rrsp's to afford her half of the house.
Also the judge ordered that i pay 432 dollars a month based on my so called annual income of $40,000. She was awarded full custody as i didn't want to fight it and i have access which i was believe is overnights but have never been allowed to have my son as of yet because my family smokes and she didn't want him exposed to that. I have been working as much as i can but wasn't given any credit for any money i had sent and now am in arrears for roughly 2500 because the FRO is understaffed and just yesterday finally registered the court order. During that time i was not allowed to send her money because it would cause inaccuracies that could lead to charges against me. Also I guess if I don't pat the inflated amount and the arrears I may land in jail. Now you tell me wouldn't going to jail be better than what I have now. In jail I have access to free education, cable tv , three square meals a day and a gym membership. I'll always have someone to play cards with and I will emerge a couple years down the road with a diploma and will be a non smoker because that's been removed as a privledge for inmates. It can't be any worse than my present life now could it?????
HELP!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 5:23:54 PM | | Kinda sounds like you got suckered a little bit with the funds into her account but that is all irrelevent now it already is a done deal...a lawer would help now with the child support situation if you could not pay because of their understaffing...if you have a job now yes I think jail would be worse...you will have limited or no contact with your child and keep in mind child support and visitation are 2 seperate issues your ex must let you see the child no matter what but jail can be a reason to suspend visitation ( not smoking)...keep the good fight the child is what matters...wish you luck | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 5:32:12 PM | You're looking the wrong direction. When things are at their worst, they can only improve. You don't want to also lose your freedom after everything else. Believe me, it is not an answer to your problems.
I want you to consider the possibility that there is a wonderful woman, job, family, home and life out there for you that has nothing to do with your current situation. Then, pick yourself up one more time, and go claim that.
You now know and see the situation with clear eyes. It's not the time to lay down and die. It's time to get up, no matter how tired, hurt, spent, disillusioned, and angry you are, and fight---for *you*. You deserve better, your child deserves to see, spend time with, and know that you care, and the people whose lives you belong in deserve to get the opportunity to be with the strong, caring, kind-hearted, resilient, persistent, steadfast man that this experience should make you in to.
Prison won't do any of that for you. Don't lie down and roll over now. Stand up, look up, and make your own plan. I'll say a prayer for you too. All the best. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 5:36:18 PM | The experience I have is that education is only given to those who have long sentences (this is in the states though). It changes from state to state but my impression is that jail is nothing but alot of time to think about what you did wrong. Cigarettes may be banned but that doesn't mean they aren't available. It would be easier to quit on the outside with nicotine gum and patches.
You'd be better off spending the time you would in jail just sitting there or earning $1/hour on getting out of the hole or fighting the system to get credit for what you have done. It may seem bleak but there is no bleaker place on earth than locked up.
Cable tv channel is determined by the biggest guy. The food is terrible and you want to stay away from the gym.
Dude, if you went to jail you would be sorry. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 5:50:59 PM | | Take your situation to a Paralegal and see what they say. They are a lot cheaper than a lawyer and more accomodating. Apply for a support adjustment as you aren't making $40000 per year. She has to allow visitation and it is against the law to deny access. Her whole family is screwing you and there is no harm in fighting back. Talk to a Paralegal first or Duty Counsel, if you qualify for legal aid. But if you are so hard done by what are you doing on a dating site and how can you afford the computer and internet? | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 5:52:25 PM | | Here in the UK jail is as bad, having spent a straight 8 years in them, for giving in and letting them win, I came out to find my life was over, I have nothing cant even get work, so I would say don't quit, fight it and you will survive, elsewise youll end up like me, alone and a broken man. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 6:11:08 PM | @crane man be thankful you have a job that pays probably close to 50 bucks an hour. I imagine you operate a crane? Just think how you landed that job honestly was through your hard work or did you get lucky? Be truthfull with yourself and thank your lucky stars.
My computer is six years old winME and have for the last year been living with mybrother and his wife and they have a connection and this site is free and what the hell does that have to do with anything. Since moving to THis area the only sectors that are growing are high tech. Everyone else is suffering from the rise of the looney. I am not a stupid person and given the chance could easily attain a degree but i just don''t seem to have a few thousand dollars. oh I left it in my other pants. Some people fall through the cracks as opposed to having life easy . Maybe I am one of those and don''t deserve a life I have sent out or hand delivered i don''t know how many resumes and the work that i have been getting is through temp agencies that pay a whopping 10 bucks an hour, I guess if i didn''t get laid off maybe my life would be rosier but man i am frustrated and unless i get a decent job i can''t afford to go to school parttime. When my wife left she took everything accept this computer and a lazyboy chair. Being married I poured everything into the marraige, I wasa the one who payed for her last calsses at school and if wasn''t for me shw would still be in debt of her school loans. And I came into this relationship debt free albeit without a credit card or any credit for that matter and we always made sure that hers was squeaky clean. I didn''t feel the need to enhance my credit rating because unless you have a secured card waiters only get credit according to the banking system for 6.25 an hour and you can''t get a gold card with that. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 6:18:27 PM | Oh man that sucks bud.......
But jail is not all its cracked up to be. I worked in the jails for a long time...Firstly you would end up in a Provincial facility...not "Club Fed". There is one television for every 30 or so people and everyone watches what 'bubba' wants to watch. These same 30 people will be crammed into an area that was meant for about 10 people.
When everyone takes their shoes off at lock-down....eeesh. I dont know how good you look in orange...but it would be something to consider if you are at all discerning about your appearance. The food sucks...you will have little 20 year old..fresh out of law and security trainees dictating your every move....(but believe me...whatever THEY ask you to do will be much better than what BUBBA WANTS YOU TO DO...if you know what I mean...)
Or worse...you will be supervised by an old school officer that has been there for 30 years and is pretty much a piece of toast with legs because he is so burnt out and bitter. There is a smell in the jail that is like no other smell in the world, and its not nice. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 6:22:49 PM | OH I forgot....and the cigarettes you DO get in jail, probably arrived there in the rear-end of one of the weekenders.....food for thought....
I know I am being a smarty...but know that I do feel for your situation...its not easy. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 6:45:11 PM | umm that’s only if you go to a federal prison in Canada u get all that if u wana know about provincial jail my sister was in there at Vanier and she called me crying everyday about how all she wanted was to be able to hold her niece when we went to see her or how she wanted to be able to kill her husband good bye or hold his hand our jails r not that bad but it is to a sense you have times during the day you are forced to sit in your room cuz of a lack of staffing my sister spent 6 days in lockdown because there wasnt enough guards sometimes you cant even go outside.. and when you do go for a visit or to do basically ne thing they r strip searching you.. personally id rather pay even though it is unfair maybe take her back to court to get the payments lowered
as for bitching about how hard life is guess what life is hard its real damn hard and only you have the power to change that when i had my daughter her dad never had done ne thing for either of us i asked him to buy her a crib he bought himself a motorcycle but guess what i worked my ass off got her everything she needed.. i took out this thing called an osap loan and guess what now im college educated that put me from making 12gs a yr to the potential of almost 78gs ( for your average 1st class constable) but guess what i still work my dead end job right now but it pays my bills not much more but hey.. again life is hard but you know what keeps me going throughout it all is i know my daughter will have more respect for me knowing i at least tried my hardest to give her the world moon and stars on my own.. you need to change your way of thinking cuz ur not gona get anything being like i cant ...
someone told me this and it helped me alot... you choose everything that’s in you life.. the good the bad and the ugly.. everything good is because you worked hard and chose 4 it to be there the bad cuz u made a dumb choice but guess what each day is going to keep going r u gona sit on ur ass and do nothing but feel sorry 4 yourself or r u gona go get what u want
sorry if i sound like im busting ur ass but u need it NOw get off ur ass and go after what u want cuz nothing is handed to u in this life hunny | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 6:58:03 PM | Yewmoyd, I don't make $50 per hour, but you are right that I am damn thankful for everything that I have. My Employer treats me very well and I am very thankful for it. I have worked very hard and huslted very hard to get where I am now. I am in Sales and I make $60K per year. I was only asking you a question as something sounded a little off.
My advice is going to sound harsh but listen up. Quit feeling sorry for yourself. It isn't doing you any good. Have you looked for a job in construction as it is booming. Laboueres are making $30 per hour, can you do that? Waiters do make min wage but what about tips? Get a paralegal or legal aid to advice you on how to get a reduction in support as you can't affordto pay more money. But mostly quit the self pity and get tough and stand up for yourself, that's what I do when things get tough I figure out how to get ahead and then DO IT! | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 7:04:58 PM | depends on the jail. With all the psychological things they do to break you down after staring at the same wall for 2 or 3 days with nothing to do many people start thinking ways to kill them selves....
Don't belive the hype on how great jail is....
Personally given enough notice I would kill myself rather than spending a lenght of time in jail. You will never be the same after you get out. A the scary thing is that the people do get out after being totally screwed up at the publics request. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/4/2006 10:14:03 PM | yewmoyd
Your barking up the wrong tree when you post something about you and could be faceing jail because some of these people will shut you out or downsize you just because of what you have already mention in the orginal post, but i do not think jail would be better because at least you still have a LITTLE bit of freedom in there you'r have none......Nobody wants to really be in that place but if you do wind up there on MISTAKES than thats different.
GL TO YOU HUN. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/5/2006 2:33:40 AM | I wouldn't recommend jail. Once you are in the system, the chances of you staying in the system or returning to the system go up exponentially. Jail time goes on your record, its tough to explain away. It would limit your job options in the future. Also you have no idea what could happen to you in jail, too many variables.
Sounds like you made some bad financial decisions. Nothing you can do about it now, but seems like the woman took advantage of you because you in part let her take advantage of you. I'd sit down with a financial planner (many are not that expensive) to discuss your situation and also about managing your money in general.
If you just can't pay child support and you have to go to jail for a decent stretch, I'd say run. As long as your children will be provided for by their mother, just run. Leave the country and work under the table somewhere else. If you've never had your freedom taken from you, trust me, you never want to. Not even for a day, not even for a minute, not even for a second.
There are books and guides on how to run. They are often incomplete for liability and poor research reasons. But they will give you the basics on what to do and not to do.
My suggestion now is to save up as much cash as possible, liquidate as much of your stuff as you can into cash and learn a hands on trade like carpentry or plumbing that you can apply anywhere. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/5/2006 7:11:01 AM | ^^^^^^^^ THE ABSOLUTE WORST ADVICE EVER^^^^^^^
Please Op do not listen to that. If you need to get a lawyer. Seek out Legal Aid. Someone somewhere should be able to help you.
Besides I think there are inherent problems with parents who don't pay child support taking up space in the prisons. I wonder how serious it is. I mean we don't have the room for hardened criminals where are we going to find the room for every single parent who can't or refuses to pay child support? Nope our government isn't too bright. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/5/2006 7:28:26 AM | Jail is a bad place to be why do you think people try and escape all the time? Go see legal aid they will help you in your situation.
Also read peoples profiles and other threads before heeding their advice as you will likely see the twisted personality behind the advice and move on to someone who actually has constructive advice to use.
Some people on here post to make a stand against everything under the sun without any prior knowledge or experience other then their own personal bias, throwing out random facts without any thought or research at the very least. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/5/2006 8:31:37 AM | sounds like you have been a bit more then a "little railroaded" you have been flat out lied to and taken advantage of imho if what you say is the absolute facts. first off, i feel for your child.
second, get yourself a GOOD LAWYER. i am not a lawyer but i know a bit about this. as pointed out custody, access/visitation and child support are 3 separate issues. in other words, if you dont have/get one of those privledges the others can't be denied. that is why so many people get into trouble when they say you can't see the baby because you didnt pay or i have sole custody. second, unless you have sat in front of a judge or mediator chances are you HAVE joint custody. it is pretty hard to get sole in ontario even when a second parent is a deadbeat. fact is, you were married and living together when baby was born. mother may be the primary residential parent, but you still have joint unless someone has ordered otherwise. and they need a damned good reason even if you can't prove you were giving support. i HOPE you can prove it though.. even if it is weak proof like abm withdrawls on days you visted. btw.. i hope you know to write cheques or give money orders! "custody" simply refers to the person/s who make LEGAL decisions for the child. most commonly medical care, education and religious upbringing. primary residential parents make everyday decisions such as diet, bed time, clothing etc etc. in theory the parents regardless of custody status are supposed to work together to co parent and provide a consistent healthy environment for the child.
also, disclosure and division of assets from your marriage including the rrsp's has yet to happen. get your paper trail in order and start keeping notes of any and all communication via phone, email or writing.
yes, the system is flawed. from what i understand the FRO will work with you provided you are honestly trying and reasonable. that and the general guideline for support is 1/3 of pre tax income. so have heart, next year you should be paying less. granted i know it sucks now and you are really tight. my advice is to live on a shoestring until you can get ahead. try to pay the arrears, document that you have in fact paid before and eventually have the 1/3 put aside so that its there (earning interest) ready for the next taxation year.
and yes.. going to jail will NOT help you. get yourself educated and FIGHT! just take the highroad even if mother doesn't. you will both have to know each other as long as your child is alive and rotton as it is you owe it to the kid to think long term and be civil and do the right thing even if it isnt popular with the other party. you can figure out a way to say i am the father and im taking my proper role for the benefit of OUR child with a smile.
also.. i would seriously consider moving back to toronto and making sure when the papers are done that she can't move away without your permission. fact is this bs about "quality time" is just that.. quality moments in life stem from spending quantities of time. i would be seeing baby in person as much as possible. do whatever it takes.. really, no one ever says "i wish id worked more"! on days you can't visit, even just to pop in and say hi for a few minutes i would call. buy mom a speaker phone and let baby listen to your voice even just saying hi its daddy i love you and im thinking about you or whatever- every day. if she won't broker that, then get that intention in the custody documents when your divorce is settling.
chin up and best of luck. i actually think you have pretty good chances of having it work out to benefit everyone if you do the right thing. chances are it is a tough and long road ahead- and really i would avoid a judge if i could as mediators are generally much more child focused. fact is, she hasn't to date. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/5/2006 10:34:00 AM | The reason I suggest that running is an option is look at the situation.
The guy pretty much as no money. Do you think a very good attorney would take his case? The guy pretty much admitted he made some serious financial miscalculations by personal choice. Do you think a good attorney would want to take a case where the odds are extremely low that they would get paid at all? And even if you could hire a good attorney, what would that cost you on top of the child support you already owe?
And if you go to jail because you can't pay child support, guess what, your debt to that support accrues. So you are in jail, not earning any real money, and having your debt pile up on you. So when you get out, what happens? You are less marketable in the job market, you have a criminal record, you are older, and you debt is bigger. Then guess what happens if you can't find a job to keep paying off that support when you get out, even in reduced amounts? You guessed it, you GO TO JAIL AGAIN.
Yes, I think people should try to work out their legal and financial problems as best they can within the scope of the law first and foremost. But if your options are JAIL and MORE JAIL with no hope of recovery either financially or emotionally, then the worst advice you will ever get is NOT TO RUN. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/5/2006 10:46:52 AM | wow you must be really really depressed/mad/frustrated to think that jail would be better for you at this point!!??
I feel for you but I think you are stuck in your problems and it's hard to see a solution at this time. I live in Toronto, and I know there is legal aid available and that you can fight your current situation and also the settlement.
You should be allowed to owe a part of that house she bought with the money you saved while you were together.
Find yourself a lawyer, prove that you can't make those payments, sue her for failing to follow the custody arrangements and don't give up on your life... There is always a solution. You have nothing to lose, especially since you're considering going to jail... try the other less drastic options first.
See Legal Aid and get some help. You can also go to Community Centres for help.
Good luck. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/6/2006 4:50:48 PM | Jail is bad...very bad. I'm in the correctional field and I would not recommend you resort to this. You wouldn't be serving a long sentence so you would serve provincial time. The free education you are referring to are usually specialized rehabilitation programs (ie. anger management, domestic violence groups, parenting skills etc) and usually they will work to help you attain your GED. Again, depending on the amount of time you serve. Yes, you are entitled to three square meals a day, but it's not your steak and lobster. You are on lock down for most of the day so you get to sit there and rot. You think it's difficult to get a job now, wait until you have a criminal conviction on your police record.
You're saving yourself a lot of headache and bum ache by appealing to the FRO. Go to legal aid, explain to the lawyer what your situation is and go back to court. If you have nothing to hide then everything will be fine. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/6/2006 6:38:49 PM | well i think the OP is looking for a soft touch to shoot him the coin he needs!
as for the ontario provincial system.
we were standing in line to get a meal, two guy's get into some words the one guy picks up
a hard unbreakable cup and starts beating this guy twice his size in the head with it, the big
guy starts going down the guy drops the cup and starts punching the guy over and over.
the big guy gets up grabs the little guy and starts beating on him, with bone crushing
punches bloods everywhere. a few inmates had to stop the big guy from killing the guy.
the entire time a guard was watching and did nothing ( it was close to shift change and he'd
have to do paper work).
and just so as you know institutional murder is 5 years max so 3 years with good behavior.
a ciggarette is 50 bucks and a lighter is 100.
don't go in unless you have to dude!
it's not pretty!
pay a lawyer. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 7/20/2006 5:41:56 AM | | Do not know about Ontario ,,, but the United States has a father's group that has lawyers that help fathers in your situation ... Also, in the USA, child support and child visitation are 2 different things and mom can NOT hold back visitation. Do an on line search for father's groups in your area ... see if they can help. Jail is always worse, it will affect you more on paper, career advancement opportunities and your credit. Good Luck. | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 10/2/2006 9:18:17 PM | Hey, bud....
Don't be a ****ing idiot. As much as I realize that posting this will probably scare away women en masse- I've done time- 13 months to be precise, for computer crime in MN. So I feel eminently qualified in telling you to pull your head out of your ass.
Jail and prison suck. You can whine all you want about how bad your life is in the free world, but there's no problem so bad that a stay in jail can't make it worse. They tell you when to eat, when to shit, when to sleep, when to wake up. Have you ever longed to see the sky, bro? Do you enjoy sleeping on a concrete slab? Taking a dump in front of your cellmate in a 6x9 cell? What did you have for lunch, bro? was it good? Was it recognizable as food? If so, it had to be better than jail. Do you look good in a jumpsuit? How's the concept of community underwear, shared with a few hundred of your closest friends grab you? Sound like fun?
On top of that, there won't be anybody in there with you that has the slightest interest in listening to you whine about how hard and unfair your life is. In fact, intelligent conversation of any kind is gonna be mighty hard to come by. It doesn't matter how intelligent, sensitive, or erudite you are- when you're locked up, you're just a piece of meat to be kept in a concrete box. You can kid yourself about the "education" you'd get- but take it from me- unless you're functionally retarded, I'd be really surprised if you learned anything useful from your average prison curriculum. You will however (if you don't know already) learn how to keep your gob shut and suffer, eat shitty food and like it, and how to walk everywhere you go in plastic sandals.
So, bluntly put- maybe your ass should quit smoking, get a job, make some real money, and get your kid back. If you could make enough money for a real lawyer, you could buy yourself some justice (one of the things I learned in prison) in the form of your kid back.
Sorry if I sound harsh. It's not often I get so incensed by someone who has no clue what the hell they're talking about.
Count your blessings, such as they are. Peace be with you.
-jon | |
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| How BAD could jail be??????
Posted: 10/2/2006 9:57:33 PM | Crane said it best if it sounded harsh. He is right, you have two choices, do something about your situation or don't.
The FRO will review payment schedules, you can have payments reduced or increased as your circumstances (yes they are notoriously slow and have taken between 3-6 MONTHS to respond to a fax)
There is legal aide. Look for men's rights groups aswell, they may have resources or information that will apply to your situation. Pester the hell out of your MP and MPP.
And lastly it may not be easy but you really do need to separate the issues, being screwed over on a home purchase right or wrong doesn't affect child support. Only a lawyer will be able to advise you of your rights and whether you can recoup any of your investment or will have to chalk it up to a costly life lesson
And what Jon said on the lawyer sometimes legal aide isn't so bad, my case was the ex hadn't worked since she moved in and my money was all gone in providing for her then later her and our kids, yet I was over the line for legal aide. Long story short the lawyer I could afford wasn't worth asmuch as the one the taxpayers provided for her. But knowing my rights and responsibilities and doing what I could to affect the outcome...... I could have gotten a much worse judgement. | |
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