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 AUTHOR
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 1
Remember this? Excessive Force Page 1 of 1    
Putin: 'Grozny liberated' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/632767.stm
Monday, 7 February, 2000, 00:36 GMT


Acting Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on Sunday the military operation in Grozny had come to an end.

A Russian flag has been hoisted on top of an administrative building, he said.

He said on Russian public television: "The General Staff has just reported that the last stronghold where terrorists were offering resistance - Grozny's Zavodskoy district - was seized some time ago and that the Russian flag was hoisted on one of the administrative buildings.

"Thus, we can say that the operation to liberate Grozny is over."

Summary executions

Earlier Chechen civilians said Russian soldiers have been carrying out summary executions and going on rampaging looting sprees during the operation to take the Chechen capital Grozny.

The Human Rights Watch organisation says it has been given the names of 36 people killed in the Staropromyslovsky district of the Chechen capital.

The group says it has witness statements and even survivor accounts to substantiate the allegations.

Locals had hoped the besieged city would become calm after the Russian operation to take Grozny.

But Chechen civilians say instead, there was fresh terror, as groups of soldiers ran amok, looting and carrying out summary executions.

Battles to the south

And dozens of civilians are reported to have been killed in Chechnya as Russian troops pursue rebels into countryside southwest of the capital, Grozny.

Military sources and displaced people say 50 separatist fighters and many civilians have been killed.

Interfax news agency in Moscow reported on Sunday that 100 rebels were killed after trying to break out of Zakan-Yurt, 18km (12 miles) west of Grozny.

In the mountains in the south, rebels tried to unblock a mountain path near Salikinzhili, which links Chechnya and Georgia. A total of 30 were killed and seven taken prisoner by Russian forces, according to Interfax.

Fierce air and artillery attacks hit Katyr-Yurt and other villages on Saturday, Chechen field commander Akhmed Basnukayev said.

"Those who could, fled straight away," said one refugee, adding that there were at least 200 civilians left behind in her village.

"We don't know what's going on there now," she said. "There will definitely be casualties. I only hope the Russians let the people out."

Harbouring rebels

The Russians suspect the villages are harbouring some of the 3,000 rebels who have broken through the blockade of the capital since Monday.

Refugees from the villages said most rebels had already broken through Russian lines and fled, and that only injured fighters remained.

In a setback for federal forces, Chechen rebel fighters made a surprise attack on Katyr-Yurt, forcing a detachment of Russian interior ministry troops to withdraw.

The Russians say they pulled out after being heavily outnumbered by about 1,000 rebels and after three of the interior ministry troops were killed.

Many horror stories were emerging from the wrecked capital.

Point-blank

One woman who is now recovering in hospital told how she was hiding in a cellar there with five other people, who were all shot at point-blank range after Russian soldiers began looting. She survived by playing dead.

Another woman was arrested with two of her neighbours when they saw troops carrying stolen goods to an armoured vehicle:

"My neighbour and I were clutching each other's hands," she said. The third woman said 'take whatever you want, we have children, just don't kill us.' They made us go into one little room.

"They just shot her in the head. She didn't even have time to say let me go - they just shot her ..."

Meanwhile there is growing concern over the fate of a Russian reporter who The Russian army handed over to Chechen rebels in exchange for two Russian soldiers.

Andrei Babitsky, an employee of the American-funded Radio Liberty, has not been heard of since the handover on 3 February.

He had been detained by the Russians for more than two weeks for allegedly working in Chechnya without accreditation.

The International Federation of Journalists has condemned Moscow for putting pressure on journalists who do not reflect its propaganda.

__________

http://grozny.vrcal.com/images/grozny.jpg

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/chechnya/photo.html

http://www.time.com/time/daily/special/photo/grozny/index.html
__________

Deadly Classroom for Urban Combat: http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/99summer/thomas.htm
__________

Russia targets top Chechen rebels: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3636818.stm


The Russian army's Chief of Staff, General Yuri Baluevsky, said Moscow planned to launch pre-emptive strikes on terrorist bases "in any region of the world".


Chechnya rebels appoint new leader after killing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,,1800657,00.html
__________

Wasn't there a time when the authoritarian using excessive force, was considered the "bad guy"?


Peace
 rks58
Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 2
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 7/31/2006 8:08:47 PM
You haven't heard yet?

The "newthink" is that groups like the Chechens (Hezbollah) are terrorists who can be fought by any means by the gov't forces of their targets like Russia (Israel). Any civilians who don't immediately leave the area must either be terrorist supporters who deserve whatever happens to them or human shields who are unfortunate but unavoidable collateral damage.
 Gorshkov
Joined: 5/25/2006
Msg: 3
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 7/31/2006 10:58:33 PM

Wasn't there a time when the authoritarian using excessive force, was considered the "bad guy"?

Yup. Kinda makes you wonder why so many people are upset about Iraq & Saddam, doesn't it?
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 4
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 5:47:38 AM

Yup. Kinda makes you wonder why so many people are upset about Iraq & Saddam, doesn't it?




Even though Gulf I was built on lies, too, I don't think much of the world would have had a problem with removing him, back in 1991. You know...when he was a threat to his neighbours and was ruthlessly squashing an uprising...that the US called for...then ignored.


Peace
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 5
view profile
History
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 9:49:27 AM

Yup. Kinda makes you wonder why so many people are upset about Iraq & Saddam, doesn't it?


He was trying to trade oil in euros, not u.s. dollars.

If that was to happen, the ramifications would be huge, to say the least.

That's why people were "upset".
 newguyinventura
Joined: 5/18/2006
Msg: 6
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 1:16:29 PM
governments killing people that oppose them? SAY IT ISN'T SO!

this isn't news, never was since the beginning of time. oppose your government and expect to be killed or at least expect them to try and kill you. In most of these cases neither side is the good guy, just some are worse than others.
 edwardw4321
Joined: 1/2/2006
Msg: 7
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 6:29:41 PM
SO SOME GUY OR GROUP IS TRYING TO KILL YOU, WHAT YOU SUE HIM? I'M GOING TO USE EXCESSIVE FORCE TO STOP HIM.
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 8
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 7:07:57 PM
Ummm...they didn't want to kill anyone...they wanted to secede?


Peace
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 9
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 9:35:27 PM
Something glared out at me on this...aside from the atrocities...

The journalist that was traded. If he was Russian, why was he being traded for two Russian soldiers?

The chechens have been trying for self determination for years. What did Putin trade to dampen the world protest against this?
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 10
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 9:46:30 PM

What did Putin trade to dampen the world protest against this?


The "War on Terror" started. Then all it took was one well publicized school bombing, to forget years of opression and mass destruction.


Peace
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 11
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 10:03:37 PM
Yeah. I remember.

Did the chechens ever receive US support at anytime?

The War on Terror started....

Which allowed the powers to be to name their terror, carte blanche.
 Open_Book
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 12
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/1/2006 10:44:58 PM
Did the chechens ever receive US support at anytime?


USAid has been working there. But, at the same time, the US has given Russia credit to help pay for its military. Plus, they've given military aid to Georgia, to fight Chechen "terrorists", Russia claims are crossing that border.


Peace
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 13
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/2/2006 5:41:37 PM
My oh my...without all these freedom fighters...

The US of A's war economy is going to go belly up.
 mencer25
Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 14
Remember this? Excessive Force
Posted: 8/4/2006 2:19:28 PM
Russia is on the right course, their nation is a lot more fragile than the US when it comes to cohesiveness and Putin has no choice but to have a firm grip on his land and borders...I read that they successfully stoped Basayev and Maskadov 2 notorious and hostile terrorists and excessive force is necessary in the face of "excessive terrorism".....Cheychenes terrorists are extremely cruel and brutal, killing and decapitating civilians and I would not like to be a russian soldier and have to deal with this...if the US and the international community can back the russians its a good choice.. since Russia is part of the G8 thats exactly what will happen: he will have support and these barbarians will be dealt with swiftly for the good of the Cheychenes people....
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