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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/1/2006 2:03:53 PM | In a related thread ( christians using poltical means to influence society) I asked why in a pluralistic society christians feel they have the right to use political means to impose their views/values on society....
As one of my fellow fishies summaried... they believe they have the right...to defend their beliefs and moral code"
My fello fishy went on to state a more interesting topic for debate is not Why they feel they have the right.... but rather DO THEY HAVE THE RIGHT ???
So... that will be my new question....
In a pluralistic society made up of many beliefs and values (from atheists to wiccans, buddists to hindu's, to the whole ranges of liberal to conservative christians) do christians (or any religious group for that matter ) have the right to impose (through the use of the political process) their religious views, values, and behaviors on the larger society....???
Remember this is a different question (thanks to Seriouslyfunnylady pointing it out to me) from my previous post...
DK | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/1/2006 2:16:06 PM | No. They only have the right to keep others from opressing their belief. However that applies to all beliefs. So thus no belief can be favored in such a socieity and no belief can be degraded in such a socieity so long as it does not interfere with the rights of others.
(ie. If say... a satanist steals little girls and kills them, that is to be condemmed even if it's part of their religion) | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/1/2006 2:29:43 PM | Right .. I'm not talking about theological beliefs... I'm referring to more like "beliefs played out in action or social policy" such as... lets say... prohabition in the past, school prayer, discrimination/ against gay and lesbian folks.... creationism being taught in schools, ect...
and I've never heard of christian beliefs being oppressed(in modern times)... I've heard of the supreme court setting limits on christian intrusions into the public arena... which violate separation of church and state and the rights of other groups... I think many christian groups feel this is oppressing them , when in fact it was they who had overstepped their bounds and were not entitled to those rights in the first place...
Some (I said some) christians ultimate goal is a christian society (or thier version of a christian society)... As one lady put it... societies stance towards them in the larger society " is an abomination to the values of her God"
My response to her was that in the in the larger society... she is not entitled to have the "values of her god " represented....which would be discrimitory towards other groups you have the same rights as her... and have the right not to be imposed apon by the "values of her god"
The constitution does two things regarding religion... it protects the rights of all religious groups to worship as their please... it also protect the society from any groups attempts at imposing religous doctrine, values, or behaviors on others ans the society as a whole | |
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obliq
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Joined: 6/16/2006
Msg: 4 | |
| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/2/2006 10:50:09 AM | The real bee in christians' bonnets seems to be that Christmas thing. Many municipalities for years ran a Christmas parade using city funds. Nowadays, it seems that christians can't get it through their heads that if they want a Christmas parade, their churches will have to pay for it themselves.
Then there's that prayer in school bit. Obviously, the protestant method of prayer is the prayer of choice and since public school is a socialist environment, everybody has to participate. Catholics were just as upset as atheists about their children praying in school because catholics don't pray the same way as protestants. And now, with huge muslim populations in places like Detroit, do you think those parents would appreciate their children praying like protestants? Apply No Child Left Behind on this one *shudder*
Oh, yes, and the Commandments in the courtroom. Commandments are for christians. Civil law is for everybody. Considering that the Commandments state a deference to idolatry and stepping out on God (and your spouse), does this mean being an atheist would somehow garner a harsher sentence from a judge? Although I don't like adultry, can you imagine going to jail for sleeping around on your spouse? In Iran, you get put to death. But somehow, that doesn't stop people there.
They are allowed to worship as they see fit in the privacy of their private church organizations. They have the right to advertise their services and to invite people to join their club. And they have every expectation to live their own personal lives according to the Commandments set for by the jewish god and the platitudes of their other god, Jesus Christ.
But they cross the line when they think they know what's best for me. They cross way over the line when they say I'm a hell-bound sinful heathen and that my only path to salvation is through their church. And they stomp and spit on the line when they imply that I'm some irresponsible detriment to the betterment of society for not seeing things their way that they have to pass civil laws to make me fall into their line.
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Dancing is forbidden. It could lead to dancing. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 12:22:38 AM | "...setting limits on Christian intrusions into the public arena..." Excellently said but in my opinion you missed an extremely important point (though you used it) of the word "intrusion."
It is the religion of non-belief by an extreme few that has slowly made it's intrusion upon an age old way of living in the last 50 years. People found out they could speak up about not believing in a god and would not get tarred and feathered. Some took it farther and decided that those mixing religion with society in the public area were going to stop doing that. What they believed became more important than what society as a whole wanted done. You know, the democracy thing. They found out that by rallying a small crowd, through the legal system, they could over ride what the majority did not mind having around.
Religious values have been interwoven into the very core of almost any society on earth and existed in the public area with the majority liking it there. This extreme group of non-religious folk have decided that what is important to them is what matters now. They are unraveling those threads because they do not like it. Remember, most of society has no problem with whether you believe in a God or not. They don't care if you pray in a school, church, a park or a car. They don't care if the ten commandments are on a plaque in a building. They don't care if the dollar bill says "In God we trust." For the most part religious and non-religious have flowed together. It is an extreme minority that are forcing the change. It is this small fraction that has decided to change what is.
If all these changes had been left to a democratic vote, the inter woven threads of religious values and society would still be a strong thing. It was a good thing to think and act by your morals at one time. If you try to tell me we are still a moral society, give me some examples and I'll give you more to show we are less moral than we were 40 years ago. If being without religious views and influences is such a great thing, why are we more now than ever before such a sexual, drunk and drugged, violent, disrespecting, disobediant, rebelling, crime ridden, self centered society? | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 4:54:39 AM | I see understand your argument but disagree on several core levels
As a society we have come to hold/ have evolved to hold... individual freedom as the core of our constitution....and the basis of human rights... Freedom to.....
Freedom to worship whatever God, diety, phiilosphy you want....
Freedom to reject any belief system as well...
We also live in a pluralistic society... and now realize that when you institutionally force people to be subjected to a belief that is NOT RIGHT
THe framers of the constitution recognized that..... Is that the "small group" of people you are referring too...
The only difference is the choke hold, power, and control the "church" once had is now being challenged... People are standing up for their rights not to be bombared with religion in the public sector....
And while religion has always existed in all societies... don't forget the world's original belief system that we see all over the world... without the need for evangelism were earth based beliefs... ... The christians had to incorporate them just to convert people.... the majority of our chirstimas celebrations are pagan
Now lets address your God issue... The majority of american do believe in God... but is it the God of the bible... no... Is it the God of the fundimentalist/ or evangelical christian... definately not... Many people who say they belive in god don't even to to church or affiliate with a particular religion... It is an abstract God.... A higher being... I see God when I look at a tree...
And don't forget... while we have in God we trust on our money... what god.... (I need to do a little google and get back to you but I think most of the framers were masons) The Eye in the prymid on our money is certainly not christian
Polls... Polls are funny and constantly contridict themselves... people also pick and choose data to support their views...
The same people who said it is ok to pray in school also said it is not right for a hindu, atheist, buddist two have to be exposed to christian intrusion in schools
And don't forget... the constitution is not based on the majority... If one persons rights are being violated by 5-10 people... well thankfully that is not ok...
Bottom line.... You are working from the perspective of a theoacracy... a christian society... looking at it that way... you would feel threatened
But if you work from a constiutional perspective thet says... there are many on this playground.... and you have to play fair... one group does not get to call the shots. and no one get to use religion to call those shots.. well then what is happening is just a CORRECTION to the way things ought to be...
America is a great experiement... what makes us WORK is that first and formost we are americans with open, inclusive values that everyone can embrace... Our ethinic and religous heritage and beliefs enrish our personal lives... but in a macro level they have to take a back seat
Now addressing morality... I might agree with you to a degree... but it doesn not have to be a one or another... people can live very moral lives without christian morality ruling society... some of the most moral "good " people I know are wiccans and buddists, even atheist... Christianity does not hold any cornerstone on morality
And when I and many other people think of christianity morality I think of hatred, decrimination, intolerance... not the kind of values I want guiding this country...
declines in morality have more to do with failures on the part of parents to instill values, people not embracing their belief system to guide them and teach their childen... Social control is not needed if people are doing their job in their personal lives and families..
you can teach your children to he honest, respectful, have integrity, be responsible, respect their body and their sexuality without the need of christianity... Again I know plenty of non-believing folks who raise moral well adjusted kids who have never stepped foot in a church...
The society in the bible was pagan... christians knew they were "stranger and aliens" in the world... that was the norm... Their belief system focused on building their faith to cope with that world... that is all you get to do... you don't get to have your brand of morality ruling society...
Live your beliefs, raise your kids in those beliefs, prepare them to live in the world, prepare them to get along with diversity of views and beliefs... that is your role...
And that is where your rights stop... Because other people of different views have the same rights...
DK | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 8:26:33 AM | In response to the OP:
Assumption:
- Every person has the right to their own religious belief system. This (inherently) includes the right to reject other belief systems as well.
This is included in our constitution, which serves as the foundation of our society. Constitutional and civil law (ideally) exists to protect the rights of all of the citizens while providing a balanced mechanism to keep the peace. It is the governments job to enforce this law.
So:
- If the Government favors or forces (...either by biased legislation or by flawed enforcement practice...) believers of one religious viewpoint over another, then the right of the people who hold an alternative viewpoint to reject the favored belief system has been infringed.
A Hypothetical Example:
I have the right to believe that potatoes are actually Gods who have come down to earth to be among us. If I held this belief, I might find it horribly sacreligious that people were to cook and eat potatoes everyday. I can protest, yell, scream, b%^&* and moan all I want that this is wrong and needs to be stopped. I can make public announcements to try and 'educate' people to the horrible sin that they are committing. But I cannot have the government force people to agree with me, or force them stop eating potatoes on my behalf, no matter how wrong I felt this behavior was. That would give my religious viewpoint preferential treatment, and infringe on the rights of others. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 8:33:18 AM | | I dont care about religion, I dont really think about "god" or "hell" . People can believe whatever they want, makes no difference to me. However i cant stand being preached to and i think its b/s to try and force prayer into schools. I also dont think children should be tought a religion, i think they should be free do believe in or not believe in whatever they want as they get older...make their own choices and views. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 8:59:13 AM | I dont think any religion should force their views on others and i really dont think religion and politics should mix.. again what happend to the whole keep church and state seperate?
I think the best recruitment method churches have to get people to be part of it is to do good deeds in the community such as run soup kitchens and other community events. Marching up and down streets with signs slandering gays and harrassing abortion clinics or demanding schools have prayer time or teach religious studies does not provide particuarly good PR in my books and makes me less inclined to have anythign to do with religion. If you want to teach anything religous you do it in sunday school.
The same goes for the ten commandments, they are part of religious teachings and should be seperated from the state. The fact that they provide good "moral" guidelines is irrelevant to our legal system. We wouldn't want judges to be biased based on the persons religious background. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 7:34:36 PM | ^^^
I didn't see the hyjacking... but thanks for protecting the thread....
Ok... now lets get on with the debate...
I agree... the church should put more effort into caring for the poor and living out christ-like actions in the community... I even see the catholic church getting more and more caught up in political issues... Not saying they have lost sight of the poor and needy... but I do think it has become an unhealthy distraction...
Again the churches role is to evangelize, and take care of the poor... No where in Jesus teaching is there a mandate to forcively use politics to bring about a christian society...
That is not the example Jesus set... that is not Christ-like... Sometimes I think the christians like these have lost sight of the fact that they are called to live a christ like life... not worry about what the rest of society is doing...
DK | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 8:47:16 PM | It has and always will be my belief that legislators, senators, congressman, etc., are not acting upon the wishes and demands of society as a whole. They are to influenced by the mighty dollar and special interest groups. Certain things should have been left up to the vote of the people of this country. Like abortion/prayer in school/material items representing religions within the public govermental area. So first, religious people have never totally inposed their views and values on any one given society in our modern times here in the USA. Society has never allowed it and never will. Society, the religious and non-religious have not had any problems with the few plaques, statues, crosses, etc., that decorate the here and there. This country was founded on a belief in a God. Mostly a Christian God. We have a small minority of non-religious (not referencing the framers of the constitution, most of them believed in a God) people who usually have no belief in anything spiritual, that are out to change the way this country has been for over 300 years plus. They are not the majority but because of the way the law works, these few, each in their own situation, for their own reason, are changing the way things are for the most who like what is to fit their own selfish agendas. No vote for a change is happening here. The majority is not oking these changes. Therefore this minority of people are IMPOSING, through force, through the law, to change things to please themselves. And they are working on more than just religious themes. They are working on saluting the flag/standing when the flag goes by/the recital of "I pledge my alligance..."/the removal of the flag from buildings.
PO, you said something that I am wondering about. Since when was it a law that we HAD to pray in school? I didn't know there was one. I was under the impression it was something society had been cool with since it was done. If you didn't want to pray than you stood or sat there quietly. It was a choice. No one HAD to pray to my knowledge. That was not a "Christian intrusion" since it had always been done by society. The intrusion was when a few decided standing or sitting quietly was not enough for them. The intrusion was when some non-religious types took offense at a plaque or other religious symbol being in a civic or govermental area. The intrusion was when non-religious types decided that the very word "god" written into anything was now a high offense to them and they want it gone.
Religious folk have never been the intrusion in society. Non-religious folk deciding they know what is best for society as a whole are the intrusion of society. That is the fact. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 10:25:35 PM | No one religious or otherwise special interest group ought have the right or the ability to impose their views or values on society, yet they do. Some examples:
• Roe vs. Wade nearly got overturned in 2000.
• Go to court to testify, you have to "swear" on a Bible (is it a Christian bible? I've never looked, but I'm not swearing on that book. I'll tell the truth because it's the law).
• The Bush government is quashing stem cell research.
• Many States won't allow same-sex marriage or unions. Some Canadian provinces are quite vocally against it.
An interesting article about this:
http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2004/10/27/scherer-christian/ | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/3/2006 10:31:32 PM | No, Alaska, that is YOUR OPINION.
I'm old enough to remember not just "moments of silence" but actual prayer in public school.
As one of those children who was not Judeo-Christian, I still remember how my teachers and classmates tried to shame me because I wouldn't clasp my hands in prayer and bow my head down during their "moment of silence."
I remember the spirit of ostracism directed against me, including being called a commie, because I refused to say "under God" while saying the pledge of allegiance. Then I quit saying the pledge of allegiance altogether. Where were the liberty and justice for all if they could treat me as they did over these issues? When "Negroes" were having to battle and boycott for their civil rights? Even in third grade I refused to be a hypocrite. If I couldn't believe it, I wasn't going to say it.
I remember my fourth grade teacher ripping my book out of my hand, throwing it in the trash, telling me I was going to burn in hell, and sending me to the office because during our free reading time I was reading a book on spiritual practices that scared the crap out of her born-again soul. For reading a book that was written on a university level. In a fourth grade classroom. In a public school.
I remember that teacher torturing me the rest of the year because the head teacher (principal nowdays) sent me back and called for the teacher. Told her that children reading was the intent of free reading period and it didn't matter if it was comic books, as long as it wasn't pornography. She was my great-aunt. I always wondered if the head teacher had been anyone other than my Aunt Hazel what would have happened to me.
I really remember the judge who not only allowed my ex-husband to kidnap my children without reprisal and then keep them, but said from the bench following the custody trial I forced them to hold that, "There is no doubt in my mind that Ms. **** is indeed the better parent, but I must find against her on all counts of the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act in order to justify keeping her children from her, as I fear her religion. I can only hope that Mr. and Mrs. ****, while arguably cold and unemotional people, will LEARN to be good parents through parenting HER children." (emphasis mine) WTF!!! (I got my kids back after 2 1/2 years--after spending the better part of a year in jail for contempt of court.)
I remember taking my case against the judge for years, all the way through the federal courts to the U.S. Supreme Court, only to have them turn down my case and take one from the same city that involved the custody of a 20 year old....Buick....that had been confiscated during a soliciting prostitution sting. Again, WTF!!!
So don't tell me there is no religious intrusion into society.
Alaska, "In God We Trust" and "under God'" are actually relatively recent additions. Within the last century, I believe for money and just over 60 yrs (commie scare) for the pledge, if I'm not mistaken. Any one able to provide that info? And most of our founding fathers did not consider themselves Christian, but rather deists. Big difference. Our country was NOT "founded on a belief in God. Mostly a Christian God." This is a commonly believed fallacy. Do the research.
You are entitled to your Christian beliefs. Practice them how you will. I commend you, as I do anyone following any spiritual path. Just don't try to whitewash what the far right Christian minority in this country is attempting to do. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 12:24:02 AM | Well Pagan, I am trully sorry you went through what you did. But the equivilent of how you acted in the grade school years is comparable to walking in gaza strip with a "up with Bush" sign and you know it. I knew kids like you. They so amazed me. Most like you had the common sense to go through the rituals while not believing in any of them. It kept them out of trouble. It was the "common sense" thing to do. The few like you, that "made a stand" they were a constant source of excitement and laughter. You never knew how they were going to respond from day to day to the set pattern of things at school.
I have did my research on the "founding fathers" of the constitution and you know what? It is a myth that "most" were diests. "Most" believed and attended "Christian" churches and professed a belief in Jesus Christ as God in their personal writings. That is a fact. And if you do a study on religions of early America, you will find though they came under many different names from the 1600's to the 1800's, 90% of all churches in America were "Christian" churches with their base belief in Jesus Christ. Thats a fact.
I have not stated that people have not mis-used a religion to get gain or give denial for whatever reason. I have stated that the Christian religion of America is not an intrusion into that society because if it were, that would mean a different belief or non-belief system existed for it to of intruded upon and to of over came. Which it has not. Religion and goverment for America were born hand in hand. We can begin at the very first colonies to prove it if you don't believe it. They birthed, lived, killed and died by govermental laws and rules that were founded on the idealisms from the Great Church of England which they soon were making changes to as time went on.
As time did go on, the extreme religious ideas were slowly let go of (witch killings/epileptics being possesed by satan/death for adultry/ etc., and in place were common sense values based on moral principles without a religious base. Thus the seperation of church and state. The actual "white washing" you speak of does come from those trying to prove we were actually a near "godless" society in the begining to justify a very "godless" society that is thriving well and healthy now in our day and time.
So I will state again that there is no religious intrusion going on in this American society because...it has always been there....till now. The intrusion happening now is from an extreme few of a non-spiritual belief that are doing their best to change what has been by intruding their belief upon what has always been in existance for this country, call it good or bad.
And yes, that is my opinion, mostly.  | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 1:13:09 AM | We shall have to agree to disagree on the founding fathers and the founding of this nation if we have indeed both done our homework and have come to differing conclusions.
Non-spiritual? Hardly. In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth. I take offense at that. In fact, I find it EXTREMELY insulting. I am a member of the clergy in my faith. Just one more example of a Christian blithely denigrating any belief that is not identical to their own.
Also, your use of "kids like you" and similar phrasing I find offensive. You have no idea who I am or how I acted. For your information, I did not "make a stand," as you said, I simply tried to pray as my faith prays, which is to look upward with my eyes open, not downward with eyes closed, and hold my hands in the position we use for prayer, which is with palms up and out, not clasped together in front of me. This I was not allowed to do, neither when the school called it "prayer" nor when they called it "moment of silence." It wasn't the "right" way to pray. When it became "moment of silence" I tried just sitting quietly in my chair, only to be told that I must again mimic Christian prayer posture in order to do THAT right.
And, finally, if your belief system teaches you that it is the proper "common sense" thing to "go through the rituals while not believing in any of them," especially rituals that have a religious/spiritual significance to them, then I am so profoundly grateful that we do indeed have very different beliefs. Bright blessings be upon you, and peace in your life. I shall pray for you. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 1:19:07 AM |
(ie. If say... a satanist steals little girls and kills them, that is to be condemmed even if it's part of their religion)
WOAH! stop right there, what makes you think Satanists kidnap little girls and kill them??? A SATANIST (of the leveyan type) does not do such things. and anyone who professes to worship "the Devil" are not satanists, they are CHRISTIANS. I say this, because in order for one to worship the christian devil figure, you must accept the christian cosmological worldview (ie, god created the earth, lucifer fell becoming the Devil, God sent his "only begotten son" to be our saviour, etc) in order to worship the Devil figure of that worldview.
and yet no christian would EVER accept that definition, no matter how accurate it is.
As for Christians having the right to press their moral views on a pluralistic society, they do not. They may do so only in a christian society, in a christian government. even then it is still not a right to do so, but a privelage based on their majority.
The problem with a pluralist society is that there will always be someone claiming that something based on religion x, and is therefore unacceptable.
In any society where ALL religions are correct and have merit, no religion is correct or has merit. equal value is no value. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 3:48:21 AM | AlbertaGirlie..
That is the point of my thead... that these things are happening... That religious groups are using political influence to dictate what direction the poltical process goes...
Gay marriage for instance... Truely.... why are you interested in who marries who... what business is of yours....???
Christians like to act like they have a cornerstone or have some monoploy on marriage...
Marriage does not have to have anything to do with religion... thought history is certainly did not.. if anything it was used as a contracts... uniting families... it was poltical, social,
religion had little involvement...
Even today... you can go to the Justice of the piece or be married by a clown or some guy dressed up like elvis in Vagas...
Atheists are allow to marry... why not gay folks ???
And don't pull the "it will damage children" (if they had any) All the studies show just the opposite... Children raised by gay lesbian parents turn out to be very well adjusted, tolerant young adults....
And these religious "special interest groups" don't seem to care that others may not believe as they do... and the politicians are happy to exploit them...
Alaska... I didn't foget about your comment... I'll respond when I have a bit more time....
DK | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 12:31:39 PM | Pagan your taking offense where you need not to be feeling it. I said nothing of "paganists." You are the one incorrectly assuming that I think a pagan believing person is non-spiritual. When I refer to "non-spiritual" I am refering to the atheistic crowd who believe in nothing but a day to day existance. I am speaking of those who are against any kind of belief in any form of a god, visible or invisible.
To clarify something you said earlier, yes, many founding fathers of the constitution were deists. But their deistic beliefs came from the Christian Bible. Most did accept Christ as some kind of a person with a devine nature and or the son of God. Like B. Franklin. You should do some reading of his writings. He speaks of how oft the authors of the constitution were on their knees in group prayer. He was an advocate of prayer. He helped establish prayer in many instances during political gatherings. Like the Constitutional Convention. An athiest (or pagan as you have so stated) does not fall upon their knees with folded hands. He himself was aligned to the Church of Christ. In 1766 while in front of the Britain House of Commons he was being asked about the Stamp Act. A couple other questions came up. He stated in Pennsylvania the population was about 160,000 strong. He stated he thought 1/3rd of that population were Quakers. Some of the more popular religions of the time were the Church of England, the Angelican Church and than comes a list of smaller denominations of protestant faiths, etc. History shows that Bible based religions were strong and thriving in early America. If amongst all these Bible based religions that most all of the constitutional signers aligned themselves to there were also athestic or pagan constitutional signers, please tell me of them. I would like to learn of them. In the mid 1700's, eleven of the thirteen states maintained restrictions for political officeholdings. They limited office positions to Christians and Protestants.
Regarding what I said of you "making a stand" while a child, feel free to feel offended. I did not mean it that way. When everyone else stood with hands at their sides or clasped and heads bowed, YOU did say you looked up with hands spread out wards. When others recited the pledge, YOU refused to say certain parts. While others read comics and such in free reading time, YOU stated you had your nose in a book of spirituality that gave the teacher hissy fits. YOU said while in grade school YOU refused to be a hypocrite to your beliefs. YOU stated class mates and teachers noted your behavior. Most would call that "making a stand." I am replying to what you wrote of yourself, not of what I don't know of you. You should know that differance.
Lastly, I knew many kids in many schools that did not believe in a god or the pledge to the flag. I attended 12 different schools from 1st to 11th grades. We sometimes moved in the middle of a school year. Of all those kids who did not believe, I watched some do the rituals while grinning and even giggling at times. A few would mock the traditional ways of prayer and the covering of the heart during the pledge by covering their crotch or an ear, etc., when the teacher was not looking. "Most" believed faking the rituals was the common sense thing to do so to advoid trouble and said so at times when I talked to them.
Thanks for keeping me in your prayers.
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 1:46:03 PM | There's great interfaith organizations that work wonderfully in making sure that spirituality is present but is respectful of all faiths. This seems to be the best of both worlds. I went to a weekend retreat with the local Vancouver interfaith society, and was very impressed with the level of compassion with the members of ALL religions - and all the major ones were.
I don't think ignoring issues of spirituality in schools or even politics is the best way - I think teaching tolerance and universality offers the best of both worlds. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 2:18:36 PM | Given the fact that our justice system was based on Judeo-Christian tenets, I don't see how we can't be affected by it.
That being said, I do take issue with any religious group using their power, any kind of power, to further their own agenda which may or may not be in the best interests of all citizens. John Stuart Mill said it best when he said that the rights of the many must be upheld but not at the cost of the few.
For that matter, any group using their power for their own selfish ends is reprehensible to me. | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 2:57:18 PM | Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Unequivocally NO !!! ... Absolutely They Do Not.
If for no other reason than it flies in the face of what Christ by His example taught.
I don't recall anything in the Bible ... in either word or deed, that suggests Christ thought humanity would become redeemed by forcing individual compliance thru decree or coersion of the State.
Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's. Render unto God that which is God's
There is a difference when it comes to the Church or the House of God ... Jesus's rebuking of the Money Changers, Pharisees, and the Jewish Heriarchy, was a personal challenge to them spiritually ... to examine their wicked hearts, and to make a free will decision ... volutarily ... to work toward their own spiritual integrity and to contribute to the Kingdom of God.
It was Not a call to employ the mechanisms of the State.
darjeeling | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 3:07:52 PM | Spelly...
Our justice system is based on roman and english common law... and the constitution... Just because we have some laws that parallel the 10 commandments does not mean judeo-christian belief are the source of these....
The romans and greeks had a very elaborate legal system.
Just because a law is similar to a christian teaching does not gives chistians the right to claim ownership of it or have "special influence in society"
Again... current efforts by some christian groups are descimintory in nature... and promote, hate and intolerance rather than inclusion... we will have none of that  | |
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| Do christians have the right to impose their views/values on the larger society ?
Posted: 8/4/2006 6:27:10 PM | Our money also has the "all seeing eye" on it... Most of the founding fathers were believed to be freemasons... they were deists... but not aggressive fundimentalist christians... Which the constitution makes it very clear society is to be protected from... What christians are doing now is not much diffeent from what the puritans did... they were driven out of england for their ovezealous beliefs... and stated that way in the colonies... it wasn't until other immigrant and religious group came to this country (the beginning of a pluralistic society)
that they lost their choak hold...
And regardless even if this country was founded on christian principals (and whose brand of christianity) by the time the constitution was written the founders were well aware of the potential abuses of not keeping religion in check...
Again... you have only lost privleges you were never entitled to in the first place... | |
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