| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/1/2006 10:31:48 PM | Okay, the Israel/Palestine threads are getting ridiculous in number so while this might seem like yet another addition to the pile, I have a question for those that think things will somehow be different if they get their way.
-IF you support the Palestinians completely and call for the end of Israel and the proclamation of a Palestinian state, what do you think will happen within it ? More precisely, what do you think will happen to the Jews within it and who will support this state ? Will it somehow act as a catalyst for the disbanding of terrorist organizations ?
or,
-IF you support Israel's victory over those who would see it destroyed, what do you propose should be done to actually see this dream realized ? What can be done to ensure peace in the future ?
This is NOT a thread for those who want to play the blame game and I'll say that I at least am not going to jump down anybody's throat for their views. I simply want to know if I'm the only one who has bothered to think this through and come to some conclusions about the most likely scenarios.
DON'T BAIT ANYBODY ! In this one thread, if somebody starts with the ad-hominem attacks, it's your job to show your own maturity and either ignore the post or ignore the offending parts of it. Now kindly answer the question depending on which one you favour answering (if not both) | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/1/2006 10:45:05 PM | | I just wish they would all make up, and for give and get over everything and get along, and be happy. Is that asking to much. Thats over there, and its their life, just wish it wasn't so skary and they could live happy healthy lives to. I don't really care who did what, and why, its just all getting really old, and I wish it would work its self out already. Maybe one day it will be better over there. We can only hope. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 3 | |
| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/1/2006 10:49:13 PM | Personally, I am in the middle of your two options.
I support the existence of both an Israeli and Palestinian state based on the original UN partition plan with international security guarantees for both.
Some might argue that the Palestinians are getting the raw end of the deal for the same reasons this argument was made in '49 (Israel getting the best land and vast majority of water resources) but the situation has gone to the point that such objections are irrelevant. The agreement can be modified to guarantee the Palestinians adequate water supplies and if Libya can turn desert to farmland it can be done there as well.
The international security guarantee should be maintained by a single unified force with the authority to kick either sides a$$ if they stir up problems and protect both from outside interference.
Is it utopian? Probably. Could it be made to work? Maybe
Short of that, kick them both out and build a 22,175 sq km Walmart. | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/1/2006 11:02:19 PM | | Yeah, this isn't a proper either/or debate you're proposing. You can support the right of Israel to exist while still condemning its treatment of Palestinians and killing of Lebanese. | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/1/2006 11:46:35 PM | | ^No, I think you misunderstood my point. I'm addressing all the people who don't see things moderately. They already have the "either/or" mindset. What I want to know is what they think will happen if they get their way. | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/2/2006 1:10:26 AM | Anyone can reply to any thread they want.
IF you support the Palestinians completely and call for the end of Israel and the proclamation of a Palestinian state, what do you think will happen within it ? More precisely, what do you think will happen to the Jews within it and who will support this state ?
You're not quite portraying things accurately, with your Israel as the victim in both questions. Because, there has been some indication that a two state solution is a possibility. And, that they could live peacefully with a Jewish population.
Hamas: We could one day recognize Israel: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9424469/
"Our policy is clear, we are fighting in an area that is still under occupation in Lebanon. And beyond that area, we are on the defensive." -- Hassan Nasrallah
"On this land, Muslims, Christians and Jews can coexist together, as they have - as they had for the - for hundreds of years in the framework of a democratic state." -- Hassan Nasrallah
"In the end, we are part of this region, and we are affected by its developments. What we may do or not do in the future depends on the nature of what happens here in the region." -- Hassan Nasrallah
"When a peace agreement is concluded between the Lebanese government and Israel, we would surely disagree with the Lebanese government about that, but we would not make any turmoil out of it" -- Hassan Nasrallah
If the two state isn't an option, I'd suggest to Palestinians a non-violent way to reach their goal. Which would be to totally surrender to Israel, then demand the right to vote.
Will it somehow act as a catalyst for the disbanding of terrorist organizations?
"Terrorist" groups have political goals. When they've reached those goals, they'd likely just turn to the polical and social aspects of their organizations. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have taken steps towards politics already, instead of just being militant groups.
Peace  | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/2/2006 1:18:48 AM |
The agreement can be modified to guarantee the Palestinians adequate water supplies
I might suggest guarantees to Israel that would be effective against individuals and groups who would likely still continue to carry out attacks despite any "international security" guarantees. Can you think of any REAL GUARANTEES?
The Walmart option sounds more pragmatic, unless the world is actually willing to enforce what they are willing to write on toilet paper. Walmart sells plenty of toilet paper. The governments and the media apparently are their biggest competitors for the product line. | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/2/2006 2:10:16 AM | What a great thread and about time. It's occurred to me on a number of occasions, if we can't find resolutions and answers on a site like this, how can we expect our leaders to find answers to this ongoing tragedy in the middle east.
I'm not an economist but I keep thinking that when you look at the resources in the area's of conflict, especially water, they are limited. From what little I know of it, a barrel of water will be soon as worth as much as a barrel of oil. I would propose a middle eastern economic union of Israel, Palestine, Syria and Egypt. I would offer those countries, huge amounts of financial and technological support as they merge their economies. I agree with the thread above that the Sinai and proper use of what little water they have is probably the key to locking them all in. In addition, I would offer them fabulous trade arrangements that are dependant on them acting as a economic entity.
Its interesting, I find it far more difficult to discuss the details of peace than it is observing them sliding towards armegeddon. | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/2/2006 5:17:59 PM | Openbook,
Ugh ! Look, I didn't say that nobody could reply to the thread. Go ahead. I'm simply asking what people think will happen if they get their way whether it be the end of Israel as a Jewish state or the end of terrorism against Israel. Those are the sides , I didn't define them. Moderates can reply if they want but if they want to posit on what they'd like to see happen then they aren't reading the question properly.
It's not a "what do you think will happen" question , it's a "What do you think will happen IF" question. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 11 | |
| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/2/2006 6:46:22 PM | While I couldn't support either of these outcomes I will try to address them as "what ifs..." in the spirit of the post
-IF you support the Palestinians completely and call for the end of Israel and the proclamation of a Palestinian state, what do you think will happen within it ? More precisely, what do you think will happen to the Jews within it and who will support this state ? Will it somehow act as a catalyst for the disbanding of terrorist organizations ?
In this situation, I believe a very large percentage of Palestinians, despite the majority preference for peace with a two state solution, would be motivated to see the Jewish population suffer the same marginalization that they feel they have experienced. The Jewish population would become, for the most part second class citizens. The hard-core zionists (the "Achimeirs" of Zionism) would not only adopt the "Palestinian Solution" but would likely do so with even greater vigor than Hamas or Hezbollah ever demonstrated. They may not engage in the suicide tactics but the tactics used would be equally as destructive, if not more so. The current situation would be temporarily reversed. The reason I say temporarily is that the Palestinian gov't would have the full military support of both the remains of the radical anti-Israeli militants and many Middle Eastern states.
In considering the impact on terrorism we have to distinguish between that which is directly associated with the anti-Israel/pro-Palestine movement and those that comprise the radical Islamist movement as they have entirely different objectives. It would certainly lead to an end to anti-Israel/pro-Palestine terrorism but that would be replaced by a resurgence of the Zionist terrorism of pre-1949. The primary difference would the the scale as a result of the population differential It would have little impact on the radical Islamist movement as their primary objective is converting the Muslim states to their form of radical fundamentalist Islam and the suppression of non-Muslim influence over those states.
-IF you support Israel's victory over those who would see it destroyed, what do you propose should be done to actually see this dream realized ? What can be done to ensure peace in the future ?
This question does not really address the same issues as the first but I will address it as if it does. While the mainstream of Israel's population may be willing to accept a two state solution, they are not the ones who are ultimately in control of the agenda. The "make or break" influence for any solution (from the Israeli end of it) lies with the radical Zionists (again, the "Achimeirs" of Zionism). This extreme end of Israeli politics are unwilling to accept any solution that does not recognize at least the majority of "Eretz Yisrael" (meaning present Israel, the West Bank, Golan as well as parts of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the Sinai. Gaza is included in this definition today despite the fact that, historically, it is "Philisitia" or the land of the Philistines, rather than part of "Eretz Yisrael"). While they might be willing to accept the exclusion of lands presently part of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan as well as the Sinai, they would never accept giving up the Golan, West Bank or Gaza (their opposition to this is as big a part of the failure of the Oslo Accords as Palestinian action is). Peace will only happen if the radical Zionist agenda is met. In this situation the Palestinians would continue to be relegated to second class citizens by any excuse possible because the population differential is such that Jewish Israelis will eventually become a minority on par with the English/French differential in Canada and the radical Zionists will never accept anything less than primarily Jewish control regardless of population.
The anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian terrorism may subside significantly but would not disappear, in large part due to the issues mentioned above. It would eventually become a major problem again as the population differential increased on the same basis that conflicts over black majority/white minority governance occured in Africa (or Sunni/Shi'a conflict or any other similar conflict based on population differential). | |
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| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/3/2006 10:36:49 AM | Peace will only happen if the radical Zionist agenda is met. In this situation the Palestinians would continue to be relegated to second class citizens by any excuse possible because the population differential is such that Jewish Israelis will eventually become a minority on par with the English/French differential in Canada and the radical Zionists will never accept anything less than primarily Jewish control regardless of population.
This is true rks58 but the reason why is because radical Islam is spreading across the middle east, minorities and those that are not followers of Islam in countries where it is dominate are descriminated against or worse.
The only place in the Middle East where there is democracy and respect for minorities & freedom is in Israel and a couple of it's nieghbors.
A free, democratic country with religous freedom cannot exist peacefully beside a Muslim /Islamic dominated country. That is why there will never be peace as long as Israel exist's, nor would it be the case with any country that had religous and political freedom if it was in Israel's place.
I think there will be a cease-fire next week in Lebanon it will last for a week....maybe two, just long enough to bring aid to those that need it and finish evacuating the rest of those that want to leave southern Lebanon.
Hezballah and Syria will not co-operate with attempts at either disarmenment or leaving southern Lebanon and allowing the Lebanese army or a peacekeeping force to control it's own border with Israel..... negotiations to end this tragedy in Lebanon will fail.
Hezballah wants both Lebanese and Israeli civilians to die because in their view it makes Israel look bad and weakens their resolve. Brings their dream of destroying Israel one step closer.
After the failure of the UN to resolve the reason for this crisis Israel will have in their view no choice but to declare all out war against Hezballah.
This will sooner or later involve Syria because that is where their support base is.
Israel knows it can't afford to lose.....It must see this through to the end.
It's existence depends on it. | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 13 | |
| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/3/2006 4:25:53 PM | Paulse
You know my views. I think the solution is for Israel to go back to 1967 borders. They can keep everything they won till then and let the Palestinians have a life.
Despite the yakking from Ahmadenijian, Iran has demonstrated over and over that they would support that and would assist in disarming Hezbollah and Hamas, allowing them to become purely political parties.
To achieve this goal, first .. we have to open a dialogue. We can't just brand the other side terrorist or rogue nation and ignore the problem.
This attack on Lebanon is also meaningless. It's a no win situation for Israel. Killing or poking at Palestinians has also proven to be a no win strategy.
No matter what deal is made, there are always a few extremists that are not going to be happy with it and would try to poke a hole in the agreement. Israel has to sit back and not over react and let the moderates deal with it. | |
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bobby7
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Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 14 | |
| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/3/2006 5:00:25 PM | "You know my views. I think the solution is for Israel to go back to 1967 borders. They can keep everything they won till then and let the Palestinians have a life."
While this is a viable solution, there shold one condition here that assures Israel, at least, one measure of security..
The Golan heights should be ceded to Israel.. Too many times this area has been used to launch 'attacks', due to its strategic location..The rest of the disputed terrorities...
Give 'Em Back! | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 15 | |
| Enough...let's try this then :
Posted: 8/3/2006 5:04:52 PM | Bobby ..
those days are over. Syria is no challenge to Israel and those security claims are not necessary anymore.
If they are going to do it .. just do it. No conditions .. show good faith | |
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