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 Author Thread: Is there Proof for evolution being true? [Read OP - Stick to the topic]
 radioflyer911

Joined: 11/13/2005
Msg: 1
Is there Proof for evolution being true? [Read OP - Stick to the topic]
Posted: 8/23/2006 3:50:22 PM
In this case we are going to speak of Macro Evolution and the changing from one creature to another. If you have proof...let's see it.

Note the topic of this thread, do not hijack the topic
Off-topic WILL be deleted/Forum Moderator
 Lord Dave

Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 2
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 3:55:58 PM
Well... assuming the human like but not current primate fosslies aren't applicable evidence for you, then how about... appendix.
You have an appendix. It's a totally useless organ that has a tendency to get infected and kill you if not removed.

If we had not evolved then God made us with that useless organ that occasionally gets infected and kills you (unless removed). That implies an imperfect design OR it implies that it once had a function, but has not been needed for many millions of years and so degraded, genetically, to almost nothing.
 JacksSmerkingRevenge

Joined: 4/16/2005
Msg: 3
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:06:49 PM
Lets not forget the vitamin C gene. It helps the body of lower animals such as squirrels manufacture the vitamin. As for humans and all other primates, we indeed have this gene too, but it is defective. This is why we need to get vitamin C from outside sources, like our diet. This implies we are descendent from a form of animal that at one time at this gene fully operational.
 xzanthius

Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 4
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History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:08:22 PM
Is there proof that the earth is 6400 years old? How about that there are no dinosaur heiroglyphics in the pyramids? To me this is a non-issue, but I respect that others wish to reexamine the question.

Let's see:
Fossils
Vestigial organs (like the appendix)...good points Lord Dave
The observable adaptive qualities of short-lifecycle organisms (cockroaches, fruitfly, bacteria)
Carbon dating
I'm sure that there are literally hundreds of other factors pointing in this dirrection.

What would be the proof against sometype of evolution?
 diarydistinction

Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 5
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:09:18 PM
Well, it must; in some very strange and obtuse way.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 6
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:11:15 PM
- All living creatures must have a living parent, they do not occur spontaneously;
Self Evident

- Some living creatures are very different from some others;
Self Evident

- Simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones:
Self Evident

Q.E.D.
 diarydistinction

Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 7
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:11:24 PM
Although the creationist perspective is just as ingratiating.
 seriouslyfunnylady

Joined: 5/10/2005
Msg: 8
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History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:11:34 PM
Scientists have made one of the most important fossil finds in history: a missing link between fish and land animals, showing how creatures first walked out of the water and on to dry land more than 375m years ago.

that is copied from an article found at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1747926,00.html
 Angelfacelo

Joined: 3/1/2006
Msg: 9
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:18:57 PM
ok people listen
im catholic and im gonna say this
between evolution and god making the earth , there is NO hard actual evidence that either did
but people believe what they believe
i believe in god making the earth u may not , but who really cares
just let people believe in what they want to
period
 JacksSmerkingRevenge

Joined: 4/16/2005
Msg: 10
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:21:52 PM
The jaw not being big enough to support our wisdom teeth.
 radioflyer911

Joined: 11/13/2005
Msg: 11
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:23:21 PM
seriouslyfunnylady...... so when fish were fish...they had gils right? When they came on land...they instantly developed lungs and the gils just disappeard ? We will see how long it takes to disprove their apparant "proof" on that article.

Nearly all experts agree Lucy was just a 3 foot tall chimanzee...

Heidelberg man was built from a jawbone that was conceded by many scientist to be quite human.

Nebraska Man was Scientifically built up from one tooth, later found to be the tooth of an extinct pig.

Piltdown man was a Jawone that turned out to belong to a modern ape.

Peking man was supposedly 500,000 years old, but ALL evidence has disappeared.

Neanderthal man at the int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) was shown by Dr. A.J.E Cave to be a skeleton in France of an old man who suffered from arthritis.

NewGuinea man dates way back to 1970. This "species" has been found in the region just north of Australia.

Cromagnon man was on of the earliest and best established fossils was established as at least equal in physique and brain capacity to modern man....so what's the difference?

And why is it still called a Theory....and not a fact?? Because it isn't!!!!

To all others that posted.....my appoligies on not originally stating MACRO evolution. Let's start over...lol
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 12
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 4:26:40 PM

To all others that posted.....my appoligies on not originally stating MACRO evolution. Let's start over...l


Sure!

- All living creatures must have a living parent, they do not occur spontaneously;
Self Evident

- Some living creatures are very different from some others;
Self Evident

- Simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones:
Self Evident

Q.E.D.
 albethere

Joined: 7/24/2006
Msg: 13
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 5:21:45 PM
To veer off .... just a little ... what good are the sinus cavities? They seem useless in a healthy individual, useless in someone with allergies. I'll be glad when they finally disappear completely.
 CountIbli

Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 14
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History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 5:46:20 PM

Neanderthal man at the int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) was shown by Dr. A.J.E Cave to be a skeleton in France of an old man who suffered from arthritis.


I'm sorry but you've been lied to. The skeletal structure of Neanderthal does not resemble a person with arthritis. A common variation on this lie is that the man had rickets, but rickets doesn't explain the fossils either. See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_neands.html

As for direct evidence for macroevolution:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Speciation.html

The following link is interesting because it's a Creationist article which gives an example of speciation and then tries to claim that this is somehow evidence against evolution and in favor of creationism. The idea is that evolution isn't supposed to go this fast, yet we know from the above examples macroevolution can happen over a single generation. On the flip side the Bible says that God created animals that reproduce after their own kind.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i2/biters.asp



And why is it still called a Theory....and not a fact?? Because it isn't!!!!


Actually evolution is both a fact and a theory. The facts of evolution are the raw data. For example, the observation of micro- and macro-evolution, the fossil record, the distribution of species, etc. The theory of evolution attempts to explain these observations. For example the fossil record is explained as the result of micro- and macro-evolution. The theory makes predictions about what we can and cannot find in the fossil record.



between evolution and god making the earth , there is NO hard actual evidence that either did


Evolution didn't make the Earth and evolutionists don't claim that it did.
 Stonestongue

Joined: 5/18/2006
Msg: 15
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 6:01:51 PM
Why do men have nipples?
 JacksSmerkingRevenge

Joined: 4/16/2005
Msg: 16
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 6:04:42 PM
^^^

With the plumbing intact no less!
 shwa112358

Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 17
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History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 6:25:23 PM
You could check wikipedia's article on evolution, in particular the section titled "Evidence of Evolution" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution).


Evolution has left numerous records which reveal the history of different species. Fossils, together with the comparative anatomy of present-day plants and animals, constitute the morphological, or anatomical, record. By comparing the anatomies of both modern and extinct species, paleontologists can infer the lineages of those species. Important fossil evidence includes the connection of distinct classes of organisms by so-called "transitional" species, such as the Archaeopteryx, which provided early evidence for the link between dinosaurs and birds,[13] and the recently-discovered Tiktaalik, which clarifies the development from fish to animals with four limbs.[14]

The development of molecular genetics, and particularly of DNA sequencing, has allowed biologists to study the record of evolution left in the organisms' genetic structures. The degree of similarity and difference in the DNA sequences of modern species allows geneticists to reconstruct their lineages. It is from DNA sequence comparisons that figures such as the 95% similarity between humans and chimpanzees come.[15][16]

Other evidence used to demonstrate evolutionary lineages includes the geographical distribution of species. For instance, monotremes and most marsupials are found only in Australia, showing that their common ancestor with placental mammals lived before the submerging of the ancient land bridge between Australia and Asia.

Scientists correlate all of the above evidence, drawn from paleontology, anatomy, genetics, and geography, with other information about the history of Earth. For instance, paleoclimatology attests to periodic ice ages during which the world's climate was much cooler, and these are often found to match up with the spread of species which are better-equipped to deal with the cold, such as the woolly mammoth.

Morphological evidence
Fossils are critical evidence for estimating when various lineages originated. Since fossilization of an organism is an uncommon occurrence, usually requiring hard parts (like teeth, bone or pollen), the fossil record is traditionally thought to provide only sparse and intermittent information about ancestral lineages. Fossilization of organisms without hard body parts is rare, but happens under unusual circumstances, such as rapid burial, low oxygen environments, or microbial action[17].

The fossil record provides several types of data important to the study of evolution. First, the fossil record contains the earliest known examples of life itself, as well as the earliest occurrences of individual lineages. For example, the first complex animals date from the early Cambrian period, approximately 520 million years ago. Second, the records of individual species yield information regarding the patterns and rates of evolution, showing for example if species evolve into new species (speciation) gradually and incrementally, or in relatively brief intervals of geologic time. Thirdly, the fossil record is a document of large scale patterns and events in the history of life, many of which have influenced the evolutionary history of numerous lineages. For example, mass extinctions frequently resulted in the loss of entire groups of species, such as the non-avian dinosaurs, while leaving others relatively unscathed. Recently, molecular biologists have used the time since divergence of related lineages to calibrate the rate at which mutations accumulate, and at which the genomes of different lineages evolve.

Phylogenetics, the study of the ancestry of species, has revealed that structures with similar internal organization may perform divergent functions. Vertebrate limbs are a common example of such homologous structures. The appendages on bat wings, for example, are very structurally similar to human hands, and may constitute a vestigial structure. Other examples include the presence of hip bones in whales and snakes. Such structures may exist with little or no function in a more current organism, yet have a clear function in an ancestral species of the same. Examples of vestigial structures in humans include wisdom teeth, the coccyx and the vermiform appendix.

Molecular evidence

Comparison of the DNA sequences allows organisms to be grouped by sequence similarity, and the resulting phylogenetic trees are typically congruent with traditional taxonomy, and are often used to strengthen or correct taxonomic classifications. Sequence comparison is considered a measure robust enough to be used to correct erroneous assumptions in the phylogenetic tree in instances where other evidence is scarce. For example, neutral human DNA sequences are approximately 1.2% divergent (based on substitutions) from those of their nearest genetic relative, the chimpanzee, 1.6% from gorillas, and 6.6% from baboons.[18] Genetic sequence evidence thus allows inference and quantification of genetic relatedness between humans and other apes.[19][20] The sequence of the 16S rRNA gene, a vital gene encoding a part of the ribosome, was used to find the broad phylogenetic relationships between all extant life. The analysis, originally done by Carl Woese, resulted in the three-domain system, arguing for two major splits in the early evolution of life. The first split led to modern Bacteria and the subsequent split led to modern Archaea and Eukaryote.

The proteomic evidence also supports the universal ancestry of life. Vital proteins, such as the ribosome, DNA polymerase, and RNA polymerase are found in the most primitive bacteria to the most complex mammals. The core part of the protein is conserved across all lineages of life, serving similar functions. Higher organisms have evolved additional protein subunits, largely affecting the regulation and protein-protein interaction of the core. Other overarching similarities between all lineages of extant organisms, such as DNA, RNA, amino acids, and the lipid bilayer, give support to the theory of common descent. The chirality of DNA, RNA, and amino acids is conserved across all known life. As there is no functional advantage to right or left handed molecular chirality, the simplest hypothesis is that the choice was made randomly in the early beginnings of life and passed on to all extant life through common descent.

Molecular evidence also offers a mechanism for large evolutionary leaps and macroevolution. Horizontal gene transfer, the process in which an organism transfers genetic material (i.e. DNA) to another cell that is not its offspring, allows for large sudden evolutionary leaps in a species by incorporating beneficial genes evolved in another species. The Endosymbiotic theory explains the origin of mitochondria and plastids (e.g. chloroplasts), which are organelles of eukaryotic cells, as the incorporation of an ancient prokaryotic cell into ancient eukaryotic cell. Rather than evolving eukaryotic organelles slowly, this theory offers a mechanism for a sudden evolutionary leap by incorporating the genetic material and biochemical composition of a separate species. This evolutionary mechanism has been observed. Heneta, a protist, is an extant organism that is undergoing endosymbiotic evolution[21][22].

Further evidence for reconstructing ancestral lineages comes from junk DNA such as pseudogenes, i.e., 'dead' genes, which steadily accumulate mutations. [23]

Since metabolic processes do not leave fossils, research into the evolution of the basic cellular processes is done largely by comparison of existing organisms. Many lineages diverged when new metabolic processes appeared, and it is theoretically possible to determine when certain metabolic processes appeared by comparing the traits of the descendants of a common ancestor or by detecting their physical manifestations. As an example, the appearance of oxygen in the earth's atmosphere is linked to the evolution of photosynthesis.

Evidence from studies of complex iteration

"It has taken more than five decades, but the electronic computer is now powerful enough to simulate evolution" assisting bioinformatics in its attempt to solve biological problems.[24] Computer science allows the iteration of self changing complex systems to be studied, allowing a mathematically exact understanding of the nature of the processes behind evolution and providing evidence for the hidden causes of known evolutionary events. The evolution of specific cellular mechanisms like spliceosomes that can turn the cell's genome into a vast workshop of billions of interchangeable parts can be studied for the first time in an exact way.

Christoph Adami et al., for example, make this point in Evolution of biological complexity:

To make a case for or against a trend in the evolution of complexity in biological evolution, complexity needs to be both rigorously defined and measurable. A recent information-theoretic (but intuitively evident) definition identifies genomic complexity with the amount of information a sequence stores about its environment. We investigate the evolution of genomic complexity in populations of digital organisms and monitor in detail the evolutionary transitions that increase complexity. We show that, because natural selection forces genomes to behave as a natural "Maxwell Demon," within a fixed environment, genomic complexity is forced to increase. [25]

David J. Earl and Michael W. Deem also make this point in Evolvability is a selectable trait:

Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve. That is, correlations within protein structure have evolved, and mechanisms to manipulate these correlations have evolved in tandem. The rates at which the various events within the hierarchy of evolutionary moves occur are not random or arbitrary but are selected by Darwinian evolution. Sensibly, rapid or extreme environmental change leads to selection for greater evolvability. This selection is not forbidden by causality and is strongest on the largest-scale moves within the mutational hierarchy. Many observations within evolutionary biology, heretofore considered evolutionary happenstance or accidents, are explained by selection for evolvability. For example, the vertebrate immune system shows that the variable environment of antigens has provided selective pressure for the use of adaptable codons and low-fidelity polymerases during somatic hypermutation. A similar driving force for biased codon usage as a result of productively high mutation rates is observed in the hemagglutinin protein of influenza A. [26]

"Computer simulations of the evolution of linear sequences have demonstrated the importance of recombination of blocks of sequence rather than point mutagenesis alone. Repeated cycles of point mutagenesis, recombination, and selection should allow in vitro molecular evolution of complex sequences, such as proteins." [27] Evolutionary molecular engineering, also called "directed evolution" or "in vitro molecular evolution", involves the iterated cycle of mutation, multiplication with recombination, and selection of the fittest of individual molecules (proteins, DNA and RNA). The process of natural evolution can be reconstructed, showing possible paths from catalytic cycles based on proteins to ones based on RNA to ones based on DNA.[28]


I didn't copy their sources, you can go to the site if you want to look at them.
 diarydistinction

Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 18
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 6:34:28 PM
Is my feeling of being free to shape my future just an illusion? Philosophical examination of the illusionary capabilities one transfers to thought when imagining freedom in future examinations lends only to the subjective nature we all possess as entities. It might be considered determinism; in that, we all subject ourselves, although sometimes momentarily, to the notion or idea that we process in our minds that an action has existed in itself as a precedent thought. It might be considered worthwhile to examine it biologically, as polymorphic in nature. Further then, one might jump for a moment and turn to the dragonfly for examination, hoping for some offering of justification when traveling that distance to exercise our freedom. This type of perspective will ultimately provide perceptive speculations beyond a human assimilation, imparting a more animalistic approach to solidify its own understanding by bringing together a more holistic viewpoint of freedom.
The dragonfly is an insect, represents illusion, and is considered a predator that assists in the life cycles of the insect families. Noted strangely for their unique eyesight, they are recognized as definitively capturing an optical illusion, also postulated to have 360 degree vision. In ancient medicine wheel teachings, the dragonfly offers medicine of the dreamtime and the illusionary exterior we accept as physical reality. Legends even suggest that dragonfly once came from dragon.
When we see the dragonfly during the right season, in close, its wings provide an iridescence that exemplifies magnificent colour co-ordinates; differentiating itself from a more primary understanding of colour.
The elemental, or evolutionary, ideology captures again the notion that, yes, human existence is integral as a speech-oriented, transferable body of knowledge. But where does this knowledge come from? Further introspection might allude what others say in their own capacities to understand human interaction, whether it be empirical or magical in nature and this tends us to question what we have already learned from past experience. Can we impart that there is a learned method to accept and understand spirits beyond our own assimilation then? Is it fair to suggest that the dragonfly might offer some frame of intelligence to support what we as humans are capable of in terms of knowledge and evolution. In fact so it shall. In some way it can be a truth in its own determination, with our hope to make comparative, elemental relationships in our course of action in the universe and its study of our very own life cycles. To draw further conclusions in this understanding is then to impart other teachings already examined that allow us to co-ordinate our existential being.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 19
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 6:39:44 PM
Another article on the discoveries made from digital modelling.

http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/03/pr0351.htm

Give it a test drive:

http://dllab.caltech.edu/avida/

In the realm of mathematical probability, evolution works perfectly.
 Lord Dave

Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 20
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 7:16:40 PM

seriouslyfunnylady...... so when fish were fish...they had gils right? When they came on land...they instantly developed lungs and the gils just disappeard ? We will see how long it takes to disprove their apparant "proof" on that article.


Ever heard of amphibians? They usually start in an aquadic environment for the first part of their lives then move to a terestrial environment for the latter portion. They also need to keep their skin moist for gas flow (respiration).


To all others that posted.....my appoligies on not originally stating MACRO evolution. Let's start over...lol

Macro evolution is mearly alot of micro evolutions, atleast as far as I see. Just like a novel is alot of little words. A computer program is just alot of bits. A table is just alot of atoms.
 tarot123

Joined: 7/24/2004
Msg: 21
view profile
History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 7:52:11 PM
here it is in a nutshell. the sex of a baby is not decided right away. it is decided later on as the fetus grows. it essentially starts out more or less neutral. therefore, all babies in the womb are endowed with roughly the same configuration. this includes nipples. when the sex is finally decided through testosterone(male), or estrogen(female), some features which are already present either fade or are left as is. the nipples are one such item. if the sex is female, well, you already have the parts. if male, your nips become obsolete and you're stuck with them.
 Pyke

Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 22
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History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 8:17:55 PM
If memory serves; the island where Darwin first theorized evolution actually has experienced it with one of the birds on the island.

I remember reading about it on CNN, which is pro-right wing.

Consequently, evolution is obvious.

People forget that changes occur over millions, upon millions of years. The idea of creationism is absolutely ludicrous.

Look around the world. Proof is all around you, people have posted a ton of it in this thread....
 Stonestongue

Joined: 5/18/2006
Msg: 23
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 8:41:43 PM
Ummmmm....The sex of the baby is not decided by testosterone and estrogen levels. I've always heard it's decided by the Y chromosome. If you got it, you're a dude.


therefore, all babies in the womb are endowed with roughly the same configuration. this includes nipples. when the sex is finally decided through testosterone(male), or estrogen(female), some features which are already present either fade or are left as is. the nipples are one such item. if the sex is female, well, you already have the parts. if male, your nips become obsolete and you're stuck with them.


So.....What happens to the women? Why don't they still have penises?
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 24
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 9:04:40 PM

The sex of the baby is not decided by testosterone and estrogen levels. I've always heard it's decided by the Y chromosome.


The chromosomes are the "coding", the hormones do the work.

So.....What happens to the women?


That same bunch of cells develops into a clitoris.
 bushsucks

Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 25
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History
Is there Proof for evolution being true?
Posted: 8/23/2006 9:06:55 PM
Lord Dave, if Macro evolution is a series of micro evolutions then why when we find dinosaur bones do we find Tyranosaurus, or Brachiosaurus, or any distinct species? Instead wouldn't we find a continuing slowly changing progression of creatures that do not fit neatly in to categories with names. For example, instead of finding triceratops that all look the same we would find some with small horns, some bigger, some bigger, etc. Do you see what I mean?
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Show ALL Forums  > Religion  > Is there Proof for evolution being true? [Read OP - Stick to the topic]