| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/11/2005 10:49:03 PM | I know this has been up before, but I'm hoping to raise it to a more philosophical level.
As happend here in San Jose, an obviously pregnant woman pushing a stoller with a child inside and husband beside her, stepped off a curb at a green light and was hit by a speeding pick-up. Her abdomen took the full force of the fender. Laying in a pool of blood, her frantic husband held her as she died and the child in the stoller cried.
As I see it, free will has no meaning in this, one of life's many tragedies. Mama didn't choose to die, husband and child didn't choose it. The driver may have chosen to drive too fast too recklessly, thereby inflicting his free will on her. It wasn't a matter of evil, the driver was very upset. Noone would choose to die with the exception of those who seek euthanasia. So obviously free will is severely limited. If you cannot choose when and how to die, just how much free will do you have?
As happened to thousands here in silicone valley, he/she is happily employed, secure in knowing the rent/mortgage will be paid and the future looks sunny. That Friday he/she is laid off work. Their whole life is now changed. Free will? Nope.
Free will is presumed to be a matter of choice, and also a matter of being in control of one's life. Since many of life's events are a surprise and out of our control, then free will is reduced to being a matter of choice in how we REACT to an event. Otherwise you'd have to explain how you can make some things happen, but not others. And in trying to do this, you are forced to offer up different causes for different situations and free will begins to fluctuate wildly. Everyone wants to believe they are in control. I propose this fear of being out of control is the inventor of free will.
The "it was Gods will" explanation is used arbitrarily and subjectively when no other explanation is rational. "Gods will" fluctuates madly when used as the unexplainable reason for what we had no control over.
Free will and Gods will (destiny) oppose. Destiny/fate/it was meant to be, presuppose there is a higher power in control, that it was known before hand, already determined/decided. Gods will is always the reason only he knows, a reason we're too stupid to understand, or aren't privy too.
I propose all of the above are man-made concepts attempting to deal with the haphazardness of life and none are truth. To say it's Gods will is a cop out. It lets you escape from the sometimes painful process of insight. Worst of all, it's an excuse to not think, question and reason. To say you exercised your free will is an illusion. To say I choose/use my free will implies I am aware of all the options. Someone else, from their view point, will see a possibility I missed. It also implies there are no obstacles to my will. And what happens when an obstacle does pop up? Then it is conveniently becomes destiny/Gods will because I sure as hell wouldn't put that obstacle there. And don't even say God is testing someone with a hardship. That is such a primitive idea it hardly bears explanation.
What is your take? | |
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 2 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/11/2005 11:30:48 PM | free will has nothing to do with accidents.
we have free will, and our inability to control it has made this world a mess.
god isn't causing the accidents...if we perfected our control of our knowledge with perfect love, our strength and ability would increase, even controlling death.
jesus demonstated it. the powers of the universe were working through his perfect love, even controlling death. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/11/2005 11:36:21 PM | craww I've read some of your posts and I know you think deeper than that. What do you say causes the accidents?
And why do you think love is the answer to all problems? How would you define perfect love?
It sounds like you're equating love with control. | |
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 4 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/11/2005 11:51:39 PM | depends what kind of accident. random defects, stupidiy, lack of attention, all kinds of stuff causes accidents.
perfect love for all creation causes the host to control their knowledge in such a manner that it is always used to promote more love for the entire universe.
then knowledge builds, and builds, and the host gets in tune with the natural laws and powers in the universe, and goes on an on gaining more and more knowledge.
selfishness cannot control the knowledge, and uses the knowledge for selfish reasons wich may self-destruct the host and the environment, and so the host eventually dies. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/12/2005 8:15:20 AM | Right on the money,Infinitee.It was questions like that that caused them to separate me from other kids in sunday school.
I don't know.Maybe free will only applies to an individual and then the consequences of their actions cause such reactions and chains of events as you describe.The concept of chaos deals with this and the butterfly effect.Supposedy a butterfly fluttering its wings in Central Park could set off a chain reaction of things to cause rain in California.Or some such.
The "God's Will"thing is definitley a cop out.In Middle Easter countries there are unfinished roads and highways because the construction companies either made a mistake or ran out of money.There is one in Saudi where half of it was constructed by a French comapny,the other American.They come together in an intersection that doesn't meet becasue of a miscalculation.To date the Saudis haven't fixed it saying it was the "will of Allah." | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/12/2005 10:35:34 AM | free will is an abstract idea.
you will never reach a consensus about the definition of free will. However most people will agree that it is limited.( to what degree is the cause for disagreement. )
People influence and affect eachother to no end. in a society, one person's free will conflicts with another's. To preserve macro free will, the individuals freedom must be limited. This is done through governments and social contracts.
the social contract provides a deterrent, but People could still use their 'free will' to limit the 'free will' of others.
You say accidents severly limit our free will.
I say that is the price of living in a society where people affect and rely on eachother in so many ways. I say accidents are ultimately the product of someones free will.
if you don't like it, move to a remote shack in the woods. You have the free will to do that. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/12/2005 11:39:45 PM | wow craww, that was a mouth full. Interesting ideas you have. Did you develop these yourself? I'm not sure what you mean by the host, except the obvious, but do you use it with a christian meaning? You use the word universe instead of god, so it sounds like you have a broader sense of host.
The Butterfly Effect was a great movie. I've tried to read about chaos theory, but it's hard to grasp just by reading. As yet I haven't found a 'chaos for dummies' book but I would like to know more about it. The movie What the Bleep Do We Know, was good also.
No I wasn't saying accidents limit our free will. The point I was trying to make is that accidents show the limitations and illusions of it. If we truely had free will, nothing could be considered an accident. I find it hard to believe someone can effect our life with their free will. Like the driver who hit the pregnant woman, to say it was his free will means she was totally out of control of her life and he was in control.
Physicists are onto something new called string theory, having 11 dimensions that exist at once. That could put a twist to free will and destiny.
But I find the butterfly effect most interesting. It makes me think of us all bouncing off each other in one giant chain reaction. If anyone knows something about chaos theory, please share. | |
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 8 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/13/2005 8:12:12 AM | infinitee,
thanks for the questions. by the host i mean the free willed creature. yes, i developed the ideas on my own, as my beliefs are ever evolving to what i consider more accurate. no, i don't subsitute ''universe'' for ''god''. i think the creator, made this universe, but it is filled with energy that we haven't learned to use. and i think we don't have a clue how the whole universe operates. i belive jesus was who he claimed to be, and he had understanding of the powers.
i think we don't have full use of our brains right now, and won't achieve that it this life,
but at some point we will. but still, unless we control our knowledge with perfect love, we self-destruct ourselfs and everything around us, and eventually god is going to let those who pick that course stay out of existance.
sorry, i don't follow you at all with free-will and accidents. i don't have a clue how come up with what you are saying. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/13/2005 6:52:56 PM |
I say that is the price of living in a society where people affect and rely on eachother in so many ways. I say accidents are ultimately the product of someones free will.
Yes, but..... using the example of the poor pregnant woman, the drivers free will to drive stupidly made her free will null and void. Making the concept of free will null and void. Because the driver does not have an innate right to take anothers life and terminate their free will. If we had a choice, if we were in control of our lives, we wouldn't chose to die. So free will is arbitary and meaningless. It just makes us feel like it's our decision.
sorry, i don't follow you at all with free-will and accidents. i don't have a clue how come up with what you are saying.
If you believe in god/creator, you believe this being had a reason or purpose to create life. But what is the explanation for taking life away? We conveniently call it an accident or gods will, which isn't an explanation at all. If you can define who created and who has free will you must also define
OK let's say the woman chose to get married and have children. She used free will to walk that street that day. The baby inside her had nothing to do with these choices yet the baby died. Try as we might we cannot come up with an intelligent explantion for why the innocents die. So some throw up their hands and say it must be gods will because they can't think of anything else. If it's not gods will to kill innocents, if it's not their will to die be crippled or suffer, then something else is involved. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/13/2005 7:58:57 PM |
I say that is the price of living in a society where people affect and rely on eachother in so many ways. I say accidents are ultimately the product of someones free will.
I stand by what i said. Occasional tragic accidents are an enevitable outcome of imperfect humans interacting in a society.
You have to understand this and be aware that nearly everything u do has a risk involved. If u eat a cookie, theres a chance someone ****ed up at the factory and put peanuts in it(your alergic to peanuts) You walk the streets, you have a mean 1/500,000 chance of getting hit by a car. You take a shit, there a chance some **stard with gonarhea pissed on the seat before you. with everything... there is a risk involved.
then there's the big kahunah, the death/murder(rape,masacre..the list goes on) of innocent children, probably the most inconveniant incident for theists to justify.
its something most religions do a really bad job of explaining.
because:
Every religion proposes the task of living life as closely as possible to a specific set of rules. Children have not yet had the chance to decide whether they will belive and/or follow these rules.
this makes their death unjust in the presnce of a benevolant God.
so...
the simplest explenation is best...
god wanted to create a universe where innocent babies die.
all babies are atheists, so i guess they all go to hell.
...
geeezz people, god doesn't give a shlt about you! all belivers are delusional. when you die, that's it! it's over, no happy land. stop fabricating and worshipping (sometimes dangerous) false idols. religion is a manifestation of people's insecurities about death and living a shitty life.
but whats the use..
and, i don't really give a sh*twhat you believe...it's just that people like craww really piss me off!! | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/13/2005 9:21:38 PM | Mr. Niceguyblue, you really do not understand the Christian Faith. It is not about following a set of rules. Jesus died for us because we could not obey the rules. Contrary to popular belief one does not get to heaven by obeying the 10 Commandments. One gets to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
As far as living in a world where God does not seem to care about what happens to anyone, it comes back to free will. Could God prevent bad things from happening? Yes. Why dosen't He? This has troubled people for centuries so I could not even attempt to be able to answer it here. One guess is that we were given dominion over the earth and all the outcomes are our responsibility. I have heard miraculous stories that appeared to be Divine Intervention. I have also heard stories where you wondered where God was when this happened. If He constantly intervened, then maybe that would be cutting in on our free will. At any rate, for some reason God chooses to work through those who follow Him. On 9-11-01 one airplane which might have been headed for the White House was brought down by some brave passengers in a field in Pennsylvania. One of the leaders of that group was a Christian who became famous for saying "Let's roll". We are quick to blame God for the bad that happens. We are not so quick to give thanks for the good that happens. | |
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 12 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 8:11:27 AM | infinitee,
i disagree that one persons lack of judgment voids out another persons free will...it is only a temorary detour. now i see what you mean though.
free will is not opposed to science....... you can't jump off a cliff and decide by free will that you will not get hurt if you are not capable of manipulating the forces of gravity. free will and it's final outcome is in harmony with the laws of the universe.
god is the chief free willed agent, and has perfected perfect love to control his free will,
he has power to raise the dead, until all his free willed creatures work out their basic choice, love for all in the universe, or selfishness and greed.
selfishness and greed is on the loose in this life, and must be demonstrated, for all to see the results, unless you want god to judge individuals and make a seperation right off the bat...... but then it would require trust in god that was not developed, or learned, which would not be ''free will''.
after free willed creatures perfect ''love for the universe'' and gain complete control over themselves, they will have the ability to manipulate forces in this universe..... that's how jesus walked on water, and healed people, and rose from the dead. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 8:38:52 AM |
Mr. Niceguyblue, you really do not understand the Christian Faith. It is not about following a set of rules. Jesus died for us because we could not obey the rules. Contrary to popular belief one does not get to heaven by obeying the 10 Commandments. One gets to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
thats also a rule | |
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Loukus
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Joined: 2/15/2004
Msg: 14 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 8:44:34 AM | | Yeah, but one rule doesn't amount to dogma. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 1:00:33 PM |
you can't jump off a cliff and decide by free will that you will not get hurt if you are not capable of manipulating the forces of gravity.
Now you're using philosophy instead of dogma. You've made a point!
But free will is opposed to science. Physics does not support free will.
Christianity sets its dogma in cement, rules that must not be questioned. And they are rules.
so here from the dictionary :
dogma
n 1: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
And that would be the fact....without proof makes it an opinion. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 1:11:00 PM | Ohh nice hit infinitee.
Heres a wrench tho...
What if our free will, our choices, happens on a level that we simply are not concious of? | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 1:23:30 PM |
What if our free will, our choices, happens on a level that we simply are not concious of?
then we wouldnt have free will dumbass. stop smokin pot | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 1:26:54 PM | No, just means our existance is more than the physical meatsacks we are currently inhabating.
Well most of us. You might be an exception. | |
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 19 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/14/2005 6:39:42 PM | infinity,
physics does not support free will?.... oh brother.
now you are stating opinions as facts.
you just love to go round in circles..... well, circles are nice. it's all a circle.
buzzards cirlce the carcass, tornadoes circle, the moon circles the earth.
the facts circle the truth, meanwhile, the truth is debatable.
let me go back to my original statement. accidents happen. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 11/15/2005 6:51:03 PM | | This thread is titled well when it comes to free will, I think. We are always saying that God gave us free will but we never give Him the responcibility he as our creator deserves. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 21 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 11/15/2005 9:30:39 PM | Just a slight aside
Have you ever thought that possibly God/Gods are only Creators
They may have started the ball rolling but thats it??
..
. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 11/15/2005 11:49:36 PM | | I think it is a big if to think that an intelligent creator of any kind created a ball and rolled it without direction. By simply creating a ball instead of a cone or cylinder, some direction is implied or purpose is implied. I think that the intelligence of the creator is still evident in the creation and the direction of the creation. The three of these, creator, creation and direction seem so similar that I can hardly tell the difference anymore. The creator creates the creation then the creations path seems destine to somehow seek or serve the creator. It seem to be through the direction of the creation that the creator is revealed once again. | |
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funn1
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Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 23 | |
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:06:33 AM | God just got the ball rolling.
I believe its called naturalistic pantheism.( I could be wrong) | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 11/16/2005 6:16:41 AM | infinitee.
Bottom line: Free will was given to us to decide what side we're going to choose to serve.
But, the point is......We don't know when bad things are going to happen. But if you know Christ..at least you will have comfort in knowing that Gods around and will guide you when bad things do occure.
Another thing is and I BELIEVE this is the BIGGY! None of us know when we're going to die. That's why it's very important for a person to be right with he Lord when the moment comes. Being right with the Lord simply means, trusting and believing in Jesus Christ as your savior. | |
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| Free will vs. God
Posted: 5/24/2006 12:28:01 PM | Religion aside for a moment; if humankind did not have free-will we would be nothing more than robots, something programmed to deliver.
However, if we believe that it is God's design that we have free-will, I say that in itself is too problematic. Why? Because it gives, just like you said, and it takes away. Then the question is, is God an Indian-giver? On this premise it appears the answer is yes. So choice becomes fragmented, on one hand we can do/think what we like, on the other hand we better make the right choices or we are doomed. This is where fate comes in to the equation. But I know there are some religious types who discount fate, under the common denominator of the three that is preposterous. Where does it leave us? I know where it left me, outside of their thinking... I used my 'free-will' to decide. My decision is this... think for yourself and not as others would have you do. I hope this helps. | |
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