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 passionteman
Joined: 3/7/2005
Msg: 1
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caughtPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Here is Pakistan, the number one ally in war of terrorism and they don't want Osama in custody.

Osama bin Laden, America's most wanted man, will not face capture in Pakistan if he agrees to lead a “peaceful life,” Pakistani officials tell ABC News.

The surprising announcement comes as Pakistani army officials announced they were pulling their troops out of the North Waziristan region as part of a “peace deal” with the Taliban.

If he is in Pakistan, bin Laden “would not be taken into custody,” Major General Shaukat Sultan Khan told ABC News in a telephone interview, “as long as one is being like a peaceful citizen.”...
 Larissan04
Joined: 4/28/2004
Msg: 2
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/6/2006 8:36:23 PM
i think you are quite right. pakistan, or at least, many powerful factions in pakistan, namely, thier secret police, do not want him captured, and actually sympathize with al qaeda. you may want to check out "who killed daniel pearl," by bernard henri levy. Levy actually refered to pakistan as "the rogue of all rogue states," and reports that known al qaeda members mill about pakistan openly and freely. mushariff is doing what he can, at least he appears to be anyway, but with many powerful individuals in the gov with al qaeda sympathies he ends up walking a dangerous fine line... how many assasination attempts has he managed to survive now? if he took a hard line and actually went after many of these individuals, how long would he last? would pakistan erupt into riots?

lar
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 3
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Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 8:57:41 AM
Look the guy who used to run the Pakistani secret intelligence service, in an interview just after 9/11 pretty much said he thought Mossad had done it - and that Bin Laden was a decent human being.

If that's the guy IN CHARGE of Pakistani intelligence at the time, it's a good indication of where the problem might lie.

Weird thing about Pakistan, if you think about it.

1) There's Al Queda running around all over the place there, as proved by arrests of lower level operatives.

2) Pakistan's leader took over the country in a military coup.

3) Pakistan has WMD's , as they themselves have admitted.

4) Pakistan has also assisted state supported terrorism against India, in Kashmir.


Pakistan has been accused by India, Afghanistan, and other nations (including the United States and the United Kingdom ) of its involvement in the Terrorism in Kashmir, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan . Satellite images produced by FBI which show the existence of terror camps data produced by India's Research and Analysis Wing clearly suggest the existence of many terrorist camps in Pakistan with at least one militant admitting the help given by Pakistan in training them. Pakistan has denied any involvement in the terrorist activities in Kashmir, arguing that it only provides political and moral support to the secessionist groups. Many Kashmir terrorist groups also maintain their headquarters in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, which is cited as further proof by the Indian Government. Many of the terrorist organisations are banned by the UN, but continue to operate under different names. Even the normally reticent UNO has also publicly increased pressure on Pakistan with regards to its alleged terrorist sponsoring activities. The recent 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot is also blamed by various sections in the media as being a handiwork of elements of Pakistan administration. (See Pakistan's role in the plot) Press editorials from around the world have consistently and strongly condemned Pakistan's "terror exports"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism


The government is also quite brutal, and has been accused of various human rights abuses.


Human Rights Concerns
Amnesty International has long been concerned about the persistent pattern of human rights violations occurring in Pakistan. Arbitrary detention, torture, death in custody, and extra-judicial execution are rampant. The government of Pakistan has failed to protect individuals - particularly women, religious minorities and children - from violence and other human rights abuses committed in the home, in the community, and while in legal custody. It has failed to ensure legal redress after violations have occurred. Since 9-11, individuals suspected of having links with "terrorist" organizations have been arbitrarily detained, denied access to lawyers, and turned over to U.S. custody or to the custody of their home country in violation of local and international law. In addition, Pakistan continues to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of crimes.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/pakistan/index.do


They are also a place of shelter for the Taliban, which regroup there to fight in Afghanistan.

Hmmm......

Lat's see now, a brutal military dictator, who supports terrorism, and has both Al Queda and Taliban forces freely roaming within his country, and who has WMD's at his disposal.

O.M.G !!!!!!!

The wrong country got invaded !!!!!!!
 SoTexMan
Joined: 8/23/2005
Msg: 4
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 9:40:18 AM
Hey, all:

This can easily be seen as an attempt by President Pervez Musharraf to make peace with some of his enemies so there are no more, or at least fewer, assassination attempts. As a military dictator of a highly Muslim country he has to balance power carefully if he wants to stay in power himself. If the Muslims extremists running around can't all be killed or rounded up, what would be the next best step?

David


Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 5
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 10:04:29 AM
So, Pakistan is the peanutbutter between the sandwich so to speak.

Muslim extremists on one side.
Bush and the US interests on the other side.

Kind of an ironic balancing act. What's the payoff for Musharraf to bow to either side?
 dmotz
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 6
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 10:35:01 AM
Here comes the tin hat brigade again.......sheshhhh....

Look...Pakistan is walking a fine line folks...not knowing which way to turn...they have Al Quaida in their own backyard...the US and coalition forces in Afghanistan...and the mortal enemy of Pakistan next door(India)...Seems like a cluster fukk if you ask me....
 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 7
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 10:48:24 AM
This is another think that raises further questions about the Bush administration's credibility:

1) The Bush administration has all but admitted they're not after Bin Laden anymore
2) It took afew days for this administration to fix blame for 911 on Bin Laden to begin with. Bin Laden denied having anything to do with it at first.
3) Many have argued that the WTC collapse wasn't even caused by the jets. WTC7 building was not even HIT by a jet. They are the only steel and concrete structures in the history of the world to ever collapse "from a fire" and the pictures of the collapse look JUST like it came down from a planned implosion. The WTC was a money loser before the buildings collapsed, but the owner made over a billion after collecting the insurance.
4) Al Qaida did it? The man who discovered "Al Qaida" quit the FBI and died in the collapse of the building. Isn't that convenient for people who say "he knew"?

..... "War on Terror"?

We've seen so many other instances where the administration has lied. Everything from falsifying satellite photos they showed to the Saudis before the FIRST gulf war to lying in front of the UN about nuclear cleanup trucks and fixing big enough blocks of votes in the last two election, and in the first one, when even THAT failed, they got the republican appointed supreme court to APPOINT their guy.

Do YOU think they wouldn't have the balls to pull off a stunt such as blowing up the WTC themselves?

Think again.
 dmotz
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 8
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 10:53:37 AM
ANTICON....
The only thing I agree with is the fact that George is no longer concerned with Bin Laden...This is a mistake...
As for the rest of your post...Sorry my friend..you know I respect your opinions and insight...but on these I call your conspiracy bluff.....
 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 9
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 11:02:55 AM
rightwing:

If we were cops and had a suspect in custody that had lied about things surrounding a vicious murder that we were investigating... and we'd caught the suspect in a number of lies... but still hadn't been able to frame a theory that fit.... but were damned sure he wasn't totally innocent... would you be for cutting him loose? or trying to find another theory that fit?

think: What would Jerry Orbach do?

I knew you wouldn't....

So that's my position... You can disagree, but I hope you don't think we're crazy...
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 10
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 11:03:33 AM
So...

LEt's get back to Pakistan.

What are the payoffs by playing both sides of the game (if they are)?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 11
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Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 11:14:20 AM
He doesn't have to play both sides of the game at all.

Capturing Bin Laden would be a fatal mistake, for him. I bet that Pakistani intelligence knows where he is right now, and always has. Were he an enemy of Pakistan's government - he'd already be bagged and tagged.

All Pakistan has to do is to offer up some lower level operatives now and again, and shrug their shoulders about Bin Laden. As such the Americans will still give them the money and miltary support they need for their "role" in the war on terror. They really have no cards, since their is no real pressure against Pakistan to hand Bin Laden over. The people in charge are probably as aware of the situation in Washington, as they are in Islamabad.

American forces are not going to be moving into Pakistan, unless the Pakistanis agree. And they will not. They keep the peace with the extremist Muslims, and that ensures that they are not caught up fighting an insurgency in their own country.

They've learned a lesson from the Saudis about how you can play Americans for everything you can get away with, and seem to be following the same path as them. Let's not forget who paid a billion dollars for the Pakistani nuclear weapons program, and who probably have nukes themselves - at that brand new missle base that no one wants to talk about.

Least of all the Americans....
 Looking646
Joined: 2/20/2006
Msg: 12
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 11:15:59 AM
The main payoff for Musharaff is that he stays alive and in power a little longer. He may very well want to help the west in dealing with Al Qaida, but he knows that one misstep and the country will explode. As for going after Bin Laden, if Bin Laden is in the tribal areas on the border with Afghanistan, nothing will happen, because it is a no go area for Pakistani authorities. It is populated with the same type of Pashtun people who make Afghanistan such a difficult place to control. Pakistan has done some of the things wanted by the US since Sept. 11. He allowed American forces to use Afghanistan for a staging area for the October 2001 invasion, and has tried to keep the Madrasses which produce so many suicide bombers and extremists under a bit of control. This has been a difficult few years for Musharaff. To use another metaphor, he is astride a tiger, and he knows the consequences of falling off.
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 13
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 11:31:45 AM
Oh, LET's MG:

Let's do talk about it!

:p

So, the question then becomes:

Why is there no pressure to capture Bin Laden? Why is it more benefical for the US to have him free then to capture him?

Looking 646:

Excellent metaphor (astride a tiger)...

One can't help but think that the 'cowboys' are pretty dumb when they come charging up against the arab subtlety of moving the chess pieces.
 SoTexMan
Joined: 8/23/2005
Msg: 14
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 11:59:36 AM
Hey, all:

Montreal Guy and Looking are accurate in their analyses, but there is another metaphor that screams to be used. Given that Usama bin Laden is the BushCo., neocon, corporate oligarchy's Emmanuel Goldstein, it is important that he be kept alive as a focus for distraction. (Don't remember Mr. Goldstein? Well, lil' podnahs, ya need ta do some readin' !) Knowing who he is puts a lot of the PNAC's plans into perspective. In terms of propaganda, Bin Laden/Goldstein
is a goldmine. They would probably love the irony of morphing those 2 together.

Bin Laden is also unused capital to the neocons. Everybody has heard of or thought of an October surprise, and it is perfectly plausible, given the neocons' track record.

Also, I just read a Wikipedia item that said that UK and US money accounts for 80% of foreign investment in Pakistan. A Muslim extremist country there would mean billions of lost investments for the west.

As Late sez, follow the money!

I would bet that on any given day Musharraf's life expectancy could be measured in hours, only staying alive up until a successful assassination. So he really is doing a balancing act to stay in power and keep as many people happy as possible. And in the meantime, get rich.

David


Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!
 Panagonia
Joined: 7/7/2006
Msg: 15
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 12:24:48 PM
Mr. Noisypop...

I thank you for your posts. In some ways, you are preaching to the converted.

I'd actually like to go a little deeper and delve into the nuances:

Osama is the face of terror, created by the US.

By capturing him, they would have eliminated their best pseudo reason for invasion of countries.

Edit:
Ah, So Tex Man. You and I are on the same wavelength.
 Looking646
Joined: 2/20/2006
Msg: 16
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 12:37:17 PM
Panagonia, I agree. If Bin Laden was cooling his heels in Diego Garcia or Guantanamo Bay, the White House would have to go looking for another bogeyman to scare the US public into line, and there's not much chance of that happening soon with the Republicans needing all the bogeymen they can find for November. What I do find interesting theough is Bush's recent comments that he doesn't think about Bin Laden much anymore. I know his plate is pretty full lately dealing with the messes he has created, but I remember his "wanted dead or alive comment." Maybe Bin Laden's usefulness as a propaganda tool is waning.
 dmotz
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 17
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 2:11:32 PM

So that's my position... You can disagree, but I hope you don't think we're crazy.



Hell no Anticon...Your not crazy...I just dont buy into you way of thinking all the time...No biggie...

Hell....I am beginning to wonder if ol dumbass George wants him caught....I dont buy into the whole CIA operative BS...but there has to be a reason...just nobody out here has the answer...
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 18
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 2:59:53 PM

Here is Pakistan, the number one ally in war of terrorism and they don't want Osama in custody.
Here is a new twist for you, neither does the United States anymore. Think about, if we kill him, he becomes a martyr. If he's captured...well he won't be captued alive, again martyr. The best the USA can do is kill his support base, and hope we make him uncomftorable as possible.

I think he as been in the USA this whole time too, but try to tell that to the US government.
The fact they think he's over in the mid-east has also worked in his favor.
 passionteman
Joined: 3/7/2005
Msg: 19
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 7:29:09 PM

Why is there no pressure to capture Bin Laden? Why is it more benefical for the US to have him free then to capture him?


Bin Laudin is a symbol of fear and intimidation that the American government uses on its own People.
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 20
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 8:01:15 PM

Bin Laudin is a symbol of fear and intimidation that the American government uses on its own People.
I disagree, nobody cares anymore. They couldn't use that if they wanted too.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 21
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Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 8:23:23 PM
There's also the importance of family, and tribe, in the Arab mindset - which has no parallel in the Western world. Bin Landen's family is a very rich and powerful force in Saudi Arabia. Even after 9/11, there were reports that family members visited him and had contact with him.

The Saudis gave the Pakistanis a billion dollars to get their bomb, and I'm pretty sure they received some nukes for that sum of money. They are good businessmen, and a billion ( even for the Saudis) is still a lot of money. The missiles the Saudis later purchased, with their limited accurracy ( CEP) , mean that putting a conventional warhead on them would be rather pointless.

This importance of the family and tribe mean that one does not turn over someone like Bin Laden without risking a very important economic relationship. It would be seen as one of the greatest insults possible in the Arab world, even given Bin Laden's record.

Also, Bin Landen's stated first goal is the overthrow of the Saudi government. You'll notice that he's not on a full court press to do such a thing, even though Al Queda still has members inside Saudi Arabia. In such a small country, which has rather weak security ( compared to somewhere like the USA) that would be fairly simple task to do.

Targeting members of the royal family would be rather simple, and would work towards his eventual goal. You'll notice that's not happening.

All and all, it seems to be a logical arrangement between partners. There is that mentality of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" at work here between all parties.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 22
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Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 9:09:11 PM
I hink Bin Laden has been under a bunch of granite for a bunch of time. Either that or on ice next to the little green men in Virginia. I'm a conspiracy theorist and I'm OK, I simply demand accountability each and every day...
 creative73
Joined: 6/18/2006
Msg: 23
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/8/2006 10:23:00 PM
Bush doesn't want Osama caught coz then his War on Terror is officially over. Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught coz as long as the War on Terror continues he is a valuable US ally but once that's over then attention will turn to the fact that he is running an illegal military junta.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 24
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Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/9/2006 12:52:11 AM
Source: Mullah Omar in Pakistan

POSTED: 12:48 a.m. EDT, September 9, 2006

KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- The one-eyed Taliban leader Mullah Omar, who heads the religious militia fighting U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, is living in Pakistan, though not in the same area where al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is thought to be, according to a U.S. intelligence source.

The elusive Taliban leader is believed to be in Quetta or its environs, a city of one million that is the capital of Baluchistan province in southwestern Pakistan.

The intelligence source said of Mullah Omar's location: "At one point we had it down to a particular section of Quetta."

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf did not address specifically the question on his visit to Kabul Thursday, but said "Please do understand the Pakistan government (is not) behind anything that is happening in Afghanistan."

The last known location for Mullah Omar was in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar, which he fled in December 2001 as U.S. forces closed in on the city. The U.S. government is now offering a reward of up to $10 million for information leading to his capture.

The intelligence source says that Mullah Omar continues to supply "high level guidance" to his movement of religious warriors, although he is not involved in the day-to-day operations of the movement, a role that is largely played by military commander Mullah Dadullah.

Specific location

U.S. officials have been saying for some time that another of the world's most wanted men -- Mullah Omar's close friend and advisor, bin Laden -- is believed to be in the Pakistan-Afghanistan border area, and the intelligence source who spoke of Mullah Omar offered a specific location for bin Laden, as well.

The source said that bin Laden is likely in Bajuar, a sparsely populated remote tribal region on the northern Afghan-Pakistan border, bordering Chitral. That is a region that a U.S. military intelligence official has identified to CNN in the past as a strong possibility for the location of al Qaeda's leader.

Meanwhile, NATO's top military commander, U.S. Gen. James L. Jones, has called on the 26 member nations to provide more troops for Afghanistan, which is facing its deadliest spate of violence since the Taliban regime was ousted in late 2001.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/09/09/pakistan.mullahomar/index.html


I love that " Please understand...." line, as it's so telling.

This guy's inside their borders, like Bin Laden probably is. He's the leader of the Taliban, who are creating huge problems fighting as insurgents in Afghanistan.

That's two of the top men on the list ( minimum) with a safe haven from our "friends" the Pakistani government.

Please understand.... .... and send us more aid.
 Larissan04
Joined: 4/28/2004
Msg: 25
Pakistan doesn't want Osama caught
Posted: 9/10/2006 6:17:23 PM
>

the problem of islamic terrorism existed long before bin laden.. i am convinced that we know where bin laden is, but can't do anything about it right now... besides, if he were caught, which i am convinced he will be eventually, there are plenty of other individuals who are complicitous in the islamic terrorist movement... there is hamas, hizbollah (which has been around a lot longer than bin laden), there is the islamic brotherhood, where bin laden's number 2 man came from...i forget his name... the egyptian physician who was involved in the assasination of sadat..etc.

the bush administration would have much to gain if bin laden were captured... it would raise thier credibility... that being said... the man who is the "founding father" of pakistan's nuclear program met with bin laden and was sympathetic to the cause of islamic terror... pakistan was also the only country to recognize the taliban gov in afghanistan, and also suported the taliban gov... there are a lot of sympathizers in pakistan... i think musharrif is simply trying to keep things from blowing up, literally... he's got india on one side... the islamic terror groups that are active in his own country, with support from many IN the gov... he's got the U.S. placing pressure on him as well... he's just trying to keep it together... if he appears to side tooo much in the effort to capture bin laden and other terrorists he would lose much credibility and pakistan could erupt into major unrest.... i am amazed he has been able to remain in power... the world has to deal with pakistan delicately becuase they are a nuclear power....

lar
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