Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 1
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural? Page 1 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
From the birth of mankind we have been at war in one way or another. We have fought against nature for food, or each other for land and resources. Its interesting when you look back and ask yourself, why?

I have heard people say that nobody wins a war! Is this true, do both sides lose? I agree that it is painful for both sides, both the loser and victor alike will carry scares for the rest of their lifes.

Take a step back away from politics and religion, and imagine a earth without mankind on it.
Is the earth a peaceful place? Now before you say yes, take a closer look. Our blue planet is still bursting with life, there are many types. There are fish in the sea, animails walking on the earth and birds in the shy. Now look even closer, do you see how they are divided into two basic groups? Yes all the different types of life are either predetor or prey. Entire species are at war for the resource of flesh.

Now, lets look away from the earth and into the cosmos. Its as if the universe itself is at war in too many ways to get into here. I don't think god only created life on earth if you belive in angles you also belive in extraterrestrials, and if you belive in evolution...don't fool yourselfs into thinking we're alone in the universe.

Now back to earth, every good thing we got was won in competition known as war, the United States Won WWII that is what made us a super-power, that is what gave us the atomic bomb. How many Nuclear power plants would we have, if we didn't develop the bomb?
If it wasn't for war, would you have ever heard about the internet? Most of inovation happens in times of war.

I know this is conjecture, but would if our waring nature saves us in the end? Would if it stops us from being invaded by another civilization from the stars? Here is an ethical question for you. Would if we become the invading civilization, do we have the right to if it means saving the human race? If so, would you agree that wars can be won, and that maybe war is part of human development?

Ok, just my thoughts, feel free to add more or tear holes in it.
 bobby7
Joined: 3/22/2006
Msg: 2
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/14/2006 7:16:08 PM
Jay, this thread will prove interesting, I think..

However, you should not credit the US with winning WWll by themselves..

It took the combined forces of all the Allied Forces to do it..

Humans have always been a savage species, and we have developed new and better

means of killing each other with every new invention...
 EnglishFrog
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 3
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/14/2006 8:00:14 PM
History is written by the victors and the US is very insular, WWI and WWII....both times late to combat. There's a hefty body of evidence that suggests business interests in both the US and Britain were hedging their bets, seeing the possiblity of a German victory.

Had the Nazis won we probably never would have found out that they were in fact the one's responsible for burning down the Reichstag (parliament building). The German people believed it was enemies of their homeland and were convinced to take to arms. Goebels said it best, you can convince sane rationale people to do and believe almost anything if they're sufficiently motivated by fear.

The Russians were doing the same thing by bombing their own apartment buildings and blaming in on the Chechneyans (sp?). In war the name of the game is deception...not just deceiving the supposed enemy, but deceiving your own people into believing those you wish to conquer are the enemy.
 pansatyros
Joined: 3/24/2006
Msg: 4
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/14/2006 8:04:54 PM
the United States Won WWII


you see man, everything was fine until that statement which is completely inacurate or misleading at least. The Elite forces of Wermacht were crushed at the gates of Stalingrad. It was the Red Army that won the war in the European theatre of operations. The Normandy invasion saved Europe from the Red Army not the Nazis...US won the Pacific war with Japan...

...but anyway war is a failure of civilization, it turns humans to beasts and even worse, it destroys and devastates societies.

Look at Israel for example which admittedly they have been "winning" against the Palestinians militarily at least, they have an unviable economy, depression levels are high, violence is rampant everywhere.

Look at Iraq both the occupiers and the occupied are competing who's going to be more inhuman and brutal. Wait until the Troops come home and they bring back all the brutality, violence and chaos they experienced there into their families and into society, how long before the next Timothy McVeigh?

So on and so forth, war is simply put a failure of civilization...
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 5
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/14/2006 8:09:29 PM
Well the idea of the thread Whether War is a natural part of the development of the human race, so your off-topic I think. And yes the Allies did help the United States Win WWII, I agree we didn't do it alone

The American Populas, didn't want to go to war until England was the only free nation left in Europe, because our grandparents were more chicken sh*t than americans are today. Uniformity 9-11-2001 may not have been our pearl harbor. I don't want to see what will be if it wasn't.

you see man, everything was fine until that statement which is completely inacurate or misleading at least. The Elite forces of Wermacht were crushed at the gates of Stalingrad. It was the Red Army that won the war in the European theatre of operations. The Normandy invasion saved Europe from the Red Army not the Nazis...US won the Pacific war with Japan...
Interesting....However, I wasn't there...I have to go by what I was taught in history...I thought the Russians were fighting with us, and refused to give up the land they took from the Nazis, who stole the land them-selfs.Then we got the cold war.
 EnglishFrog
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 6
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/14/2006 8:27:41 PM
Friends become enemies, Saddam was a friend so was Osama, just like the USSR...Just keep the war machine churning, especially if you hold defense stocks in your portfolio.

Wars will stop when citizens wake up and realize we're being manipulated. Irrespective of which country it is...when leaders exhort their people to pick up arms and send their sons and daughters to die...tell them to send their family.
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 7
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 12:01:19 PM
I wouldn't say Osama or Saddam was ever a friend. (1) We played Iran and Iraq against each other; but the USA didn't want either to win. (2) We didn't like Osama; but we hated Russia more; so we backed him for a while too. Again we wern't friends with either; it was a matter of, "if my lesser enemy is the enemy of my greater enemy, we are friends". Not a true frienship, its temporary at best.
 EnglishFrog
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 8
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 12:28:28 PM
Just look on line, there are pics of Saddam shaking hands with Rummy and the elder Bush breaking bread with the Iraqi dictator. Osama was fine and dandy when it was the USSR trying to gobble up Afghaistan's resources.

It's called Real Politik, nothing wrong with guys like Osama and Saddam so long as they're compliant with your interests. Uzbekistan makes Iraq under Hussein look like a beacon of freedom....but they're part of the coalition of the willing, so that makes their abuses okay I guess.

It really doesn't matter who the characters are, they can and do change. Pretext is pretext and most people don't play close enough attention. Wars don't solve anything for the average citizen, but they can mean a better bottom line to those with a vested interest. Funny though, those who most benefit from a war seldom if ever fight anymore.

It'll never happen, but maybe it could....if the peoples of all nations tossed down their arms. Ya want to attack them? Go ahead...send your kids.
 Cavalier1968
Joined: 8/4/2006
Msg: 9
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 12:45:05 PM
peon,

"This is not to say the US's imperial aggressions in the pacific were not of some interest: the US had repeatedly been antagonizing, aggravating, militarily pushing and harassing China, Japan and other pacific countries for decades. Now the US had it's chance for an unwarranted, meritless crass unprovoked assault on the Japanaese. Only in the US is Pearl harbour termed a "surprise attack", everywhere else it's well documented how the US repeatedly goaded the Asian countries over and over and over."


Off-topic but ^^^^^^^^wrong wrong wrong.

Japan occupied Manchuria in 1931, had already attacked China in 1937 and had occupied ?Korea and Taiwan since 1910. 24 hours after attacking Pearl Harbor the Japanese invaded Hong Kong. In 1942 they attempted to invade New Guinea but were repulsed by US and Australian forces. They, at that time, were an agressive and expansionist imperial power. The attack on Pearl harbor was in response to econmic sanctions placed on Japan by the Allies. You should probably research your America-bashing posts a little more thoroughly in the future. Just as many American soldiers died in WWII as Brits and more than the French. The Marshall Plan brought billions of US dollars to rebuild Europe. Europe sat on it's thumbs until Hitler was strolling down the Champs-Élysées. Don't blame the US.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 10
view profile
History
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 1:11:54 PM
War is almost always fought over resources, everything else is marketing IMHO.

The United States did not win WW II but the rifles Roosevelt shipped over to Stalin for him to re-engrave so his soldiers didn't know their lives depended on Capitlaist ingenuity sure helped. OP, to not understand that the Russian People made the greatest sacrifice to defeat Hitler is with all due respect delusional at best IMHO. Russian lives, American Industry.

Friends, you can say we waited to pick sides. Would you have preferred we chose differently? With all due respect do you think you could have beaten Hitler and Tojo without Rosie the Riveter?

OP, my father and Uncle are heroes, and extent memberes of the "Greatest Generation Ever." This "war" you enthusiastically embrace was embarked upon on no more than the word of our Administration. It is unprecedented, and unAmerican IMHO. Paine & Jefferson are rolling over in their graves. To not conclude we went into this enterprise of the OCCUPATION of Iraq based on precious few deceptive suggestions contrary to mountains of known facts is to simply choose to wallow in the ignorance of vitriolic bias. It is the lack of humility and respect for the actual substance of international contribution and responsibility you purvey that has put us out of favor with so many around the world. Please forgive me but it is no wonder those of us travelling abroad can't help but be viewed as just another ugly American. If you're going to wave the flag here you're gonna have to do better than qoute the Gospel According to Mr. "I mispoke" right and left Cheney. Please: "Think, It Is Very Patriotic!"

 EnglishFrog
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 11
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 1:46:51 PM
Great post Double Cabin. It's an unfortunate reality of our times that thoughtful discourse has been replaced by so much rhetoric. This "you're either fer us or agin us mentality" is infuritating, but it serves the purpose of those who don't want to look to closely at the facts.

I'm a Canadian, but I spent a good part of my youth growing up in the US. In my experience most Americans are thoughtful and extremely generous...but they're also very trusting when it comes to the policies of their government....not all, but more so than in other liberal democracies I've found.

The fact we're having this discussion proves to me that things haven't yet gone too far. McCarthyism and the current climate have many commonalities....but the strength of the US is in it's citizens ability to question and resist misguided authority. Just do me one favor, get rid of the voting machines in Ohio and other states. In Canada we typically have 60% of our people vote in a Federal Election and we can get all the votes (by and large) counted by hand in just one night.
 Karl73
Joined: 9/12/2006
Msg: 12
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 3:25:22 PM
War is good if we can have wars with foot soldiers and not a high tech war. A low tech war kills off the excess males and helps restore than natural balance of 2 males for every 3 females.
 EnglishFrog
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 13
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 3:29:09 PM
Why don't we have all the politicians who are advoacting war as a solution...send their sons and daughters to Iraq where they can breathe in the dust from uranium depleted munitions. The resulting impotence (if they survive) would mean a net gain to the collective gene pool I think.
 Rojellio
Joined: 4/2/2005
Msg: 14
view profile
History
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 5:47:31 PM
War is unfortunatly a part of mans nature. I would have to agree with the Poet John Michael Osboune on this one, ( Ozzy) his song "Thank God for the Bomb" just about says it all. Well, that one and "Children of the Grave".
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 15
view profile
History
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 7:03:38 PM
It was Genghis Khan who said, "Violence never settles anything."

I do not think that violence or war are bad in themselves they just are what they are.
It is the motivation for the use of such that often is. The thing we should be concerned most about is not war itself but, the motivations for it and who exactly is gaining and who is loosing. IMO the poor always loose in the end and the rulers gain.

One need not look deep into mans history to see this in action look at todays events. Major corporations make money hand over fist while the poor go to kill other poor people in another country just to get an education or feed their families. Governments plot against their own people to get them to join a war they had planned for years in advance. None wish to send their child to be sacrficed ritualistically in a war to make a corporation richer but, if you make an attack on them they will feel it is in self defense. Many nations have been caught red handed doing this time and again. It was used to get the german people to give up their rights to Hitler and to get them to initiate the war. It has been used since then many times by the current world powers. It is not war or violence we should be wary of. It is the fear tactic used to get people ready to go to war that should be. Everytime fear and hysteria is used on the news to sell an idea we should be EXTREMELY wary and question GREATLY what we are buying! To find who is the guilty party in any event one merely needs to follow the money. Who stands to gain who stands to loose? These are the questions we should be asking. The answers will be abundantly clear who the REAL tyrants are. We now stand at the possible rise of a world government. The fourth reich. Will we burry our heads in the sand and say it cant happen to us? If we do it will surely happen again. The people have the power until WE give it away!

Do NOT hide your head in the sand because you are afraid! If you do.. Do NOT complain about what they ram up your other end.

save the world by waking up. Its being shown to us right in front of our faces just like it was in the 40s. Will we make the same mistakes? God I hope not.
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 16
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 7:24:33 PM
I was playing a video game "day of defeat" for those who never it. Its a WWII capture the flag game. Anyway when I was playing it I thought "OMG war is so ingrained into us we mimic it in our entertainment". I don't think we should have these games; but they are also a reflection of who we are. Think about it what would sell more a puzzle game or a war game?

As I said in the first post; in war a natual part of human development. If we became a passive race; how would we defend oursefs if our world was invaded? Then again we could destroy ourselfs. Maybe its a damed if you do damed if you don't situation, I don't know.
 vivid
Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 17
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 8:07:37 PM
^^^ actually, there will be a time when wars will come to an end;

See, North Korea has Nukes, Pakistan, India.......Iran will soon have them and
shortly after, most of the middle east. So, all the high-tech rifles, missles, tanks &
the like will become quite lame indeed because, obviously, when those nations who
are attacked with such weapons.....well,....ummm....you be needing
your microwaves anymore....since you and the chicken you were
fixing to nuke ARE NUKED. Chicken Kiev anybody?

Pakistan and North Korea are the wild cars....throw a few billion at their
feet and you go home with a shopping cart full of nuke missiles. Hasn't
happened today but I'm betting probably next week it will.
 kabiosile
Joined: 11/3/2005
Msg: 18
view profile
History
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 9:08:25 PM
There are those who have said that this technology is not new. They may have been used before to the point that the poles of this planet were shifted. Although if that comes to pass the earth will do just fine without us.
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 19
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 9:10:17 PM
Well; to many people have nukes already. But you could be right; if everyone gets nukes, everyone will use them and there will be no one left to be at war with anyone.
 vivid
Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 20
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 9:25:48 PM
I'm saying that the nukes would stop wars cold. North Korea does as it pleases
and nobody can stop them. That's how it'll be. You can starve your
entire nation to death and there's not a peep. Bush doesn't even want
to speak to them....the same will happen other 'rogue' nations who'll
secure their own weapons - sooner or later.
 strangebloom
Joined: 6/30/2005
Msg: 21
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 9:31:44 PM

As an interesting side note the Soviet Union has no record of "WWII" (whatever that is). In the Soviet Union it is called the "Great Patriotic War": by Soviet records they alone fought it, they alone killed more Germans, they alone took more casualties, and they alone won it, noone else even showed-up until after they had done all the real dirty work.


Facinating... Does their history show that they initially fought along side the Germans? I bet it doesn't. This is all a lot of patriotic bullshit of the stinkiest grade.


This is not to say the US's imperial aggressions in the pacific were not of some interest: the US had repeatedly been antagonizing, aggravating, militarily pushing and harassing China, Japan and other pacific countries for decades. Now the US had it's chance for an unwarranted, meritless crass unprovoked assault on the Japanaese. Only in the US is Pearl harbour termed a "surprise attack", everywhere else it's well documented how the US repeatedly goaded the Asian countries over and over and over.


Now, I have to laugh... Japan... which had been invading and colonizing China for ten years before Pearl Harbor. Yeah, I am sure they were victims. They probably invaded China because of the US also. I am sure that the American Indians, thousands of years ago, probably caused the Crusades.

Yep, we are the cause of all woes... shame on us.
 EnglishFrog
Joined: 8/3/2006
Msg: 22
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 9:41:36 PM
In an effort to bring back some levity, I'm posting this old piece of Rick Mercer's from several years back:

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry. I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all, it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own. It would be like if, well, say you had ten times the television audeince we did and you flood our market with great shows, cheaper than we could produce. I know you'd never do that.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours. As word of apology, please accept all of our NHL teams which, one by one, are going out of business and moving to your fine country.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you want to have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

I'm sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I see you've rebuilt it! It's very nice.

I'm sorry for Alan Thicke, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Loverboy, that song from Seriff that ends with a really high-pitched long note. Your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer, but we feel your pain.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. Because we've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

For 22 minutes, I'm Anthony St. George, and I'm sorry.
 Jay152
Joined: 8/5/2004
Msg: 23
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/15/2006 11:21:45 PM
Well that last post is off topic? I admit its mildly entertaining.
 Karl73
Joined: 9/12/2006
Msg: 24
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/16/2006 12:15:35 AM

I'm saying that the nukes would stop wars cold.

At least not until after they are used against us. So far the U.S. is the only rogue nation to use nukes against civilians and our politicians think no one will dare use them against us so we invade other countries and bully the rest of the world.

However, making nuclear bombs is 50-year-old technology so sooner or later some country or group will get fed-up with our bullying and interfering in their affairs. Then the White House and Congress will disappear in a flash of light. After that, our future politicians will mind their own business. It will also send a strong message to other politicians, that "Hey, it is not just the young men that die, we can get killed to." Knowing that you personally are likely to die puts a big dampener on your inclination to make war.
 anticon
Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 25
War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?
Posted: 9/16/2006 5:34:02 AM


making nuclear bombs is 50-year-old technology so sooner or later some country or group will get fed-up with our bullying and interfering in their affairs. Then the White House and Congress will disappear in a flash of light. After that, our future politicians will mind their own business. It will also send a strong message to other politicians, that "Hey, it is not just the young men that die, we can get killed to." Knowing that you personally are likely to die puts a big dampener on your inclination to make war.

I strongly agree with this... and the very fact there ARE other nations which have nukes and there is no way we can think of ourselves as invulnerable to them (we only inspect 5% of the cargo containers that are shipped to American ports), I hope we get some leadership that stops bullying and interfering instead of throwing our weight around... when others are assuredly capable of throwing our weight around also...

Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > War, does it solve problems? Is it unnatural?