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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/20/2005 9:49:53 PM | Surprised that there is no thread on this topic here. Or did I miss it?
Well, I'm not one to be long winded, and I haven't even been around the PoF forums lately (got a new job), but I have a few thoughts I'd like to share.
I hope that liberals and Democrats don't fall into the trap of opposing something just because the Republicans are FOR it.
Starvation is cruel. Apparently this woman isn't brain dead, just severely brain damaged. Therein lies a WORLD of difference. She may not be concious or even barely sentient, but she's not brain dead.
On the other hand only the doctor's and possibly the courts have all the facts. (well, at least more than congress or CNN does), so all I can say for sure is that I don't believe in euthanasia. We're all going to die eventually, there is no need to speed the process up. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/20/2005 11:38:44 PM | (in regards to euthanasia/assisted suicide) Yes, God forbid we let people make up their own minds when dying of a terminal disease or perhaps you don't disagree with the death with dignity act if I read your statement wrong.
Yes, she's not brain dead but the damage is so extensive that several doctors over 7 years of court cases have said there is no hope of recovery. The only reason this whole thing is even news is because Terri didn't have a living will etc. instructing what she would want done in such a case. So you have the court come in to make a decision as they are non biased compared to the two sides of family. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/20/2005 11:54:38 PM | Whether or not you agree with euthanasia or assisted suicide (that of course implies complicity), everyone should agree that Congress has no business getting involved in such things.
Honestly there is, I suppose, a chance if she lives long enough there could be some kind of treatment for her condition. But still, she is completely dependent upon others for her very life. This is a difficult thing to think on, but it is not something our government should be sticking their noses in. We should not be holding hearings on this just because the parents plead for such things. They only do so because of selfish (albeit out of love) reasons.
Don't get me wrong, I feel for this woman, but this is not something the government should be sticking its d*mn fingers into. | |
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 4 | |
| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 2:42:43 AM | From what I can understand about it, it is actually about the one million dollars in insurance on her life....hubby collects IF she dies while still married to her, but he wants out of the marriage (he is against divorce), and the parents stand to collect IF he does as they wish and "moves on with his life". Always follow the $$$ in any cases like this. Where's there's a will, there's a relative.
Saw a news clip last night...this woman isn't out cold in a coma...she's looking around and blinking her eyes. To sentance her to starving to death, or dying of dehydration.....I dunno. Seeing that it is only technology keeping her alive.....I'm wonder what stance the insurance company is taking. Someone has to be paying the medical bills. Is it cheaper to keep her alive indefinitly in the hospital, or just pay off the million dollars and be done? Who pays the doctors for their opinions?
Just don't have enough info to make a real informed decision on this one....but if it was me....I'd want to stay around and keep living as long as possible....I think. Just don't know. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 3:48:52 AM | It's either take the hubby's word and believe his wife wants to die (which has never been reported other through him) or do what every parent would probably do and try to keep her alive in hopes of finding more advanced medical help for her.
But there is a thread about general euthanasia on this forum just do a search for it | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 4:05:10 AM |
Whether or not you agree with euthanasia or assisted suicide (that of course implies complicity), everyone should agree that Congress has no business getting involved in such things. /quote]
Couldn't agree more. I don't know enough about the case to make an informed decision. But I do know this is the realm of state government. I hope this case makes it to the Supreme Court and I hope the court kicks it back to the state and pokes the president and congress in the eye. One of my biggest problems with the Republican Party today is that more and more they are looking to the Federal Gov't as a solution for problems. This is not a conservative or republican value. I think the State of Florida is perfectly capable of weighing the facts of this case and doing what is best for this woman. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 4:27:36 AM | I think the reason Republicans are looking more to Government is because our Judicial system is overrun with Judges who do not interpret Law but impose their own will and views on society. At least with Congress it is the elected Officials making decisions so that the people still have a 'say'..
That said, I also agree that we should not be getting involved with this issue at the Congressional level just yet. If the State cannot handle this, then let the State Government step in, not the Federal Government. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 6:36:35 AM | Life is suffering, but I have a hard time imagining any amount of suffering that would make death (an unknown, inevitable state) preferable. I hear people say all the time, "If I'm ever like that, please pull the plug." But its easy to say that when you don't REALLY believe that it will ever actually happen to you.
Ever read the book "Johnny Got his Gun"? (I think that was the title) I believe there is a movie too.
One thing I'm sure of:
Being starved to death while unable to move is not dying with dignity. She's not in pain, she's braindamaged and can't move or communicate. What is going on in her mind is purely speculation, something that doctor's aren't very good at, in my experience. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 6:43:00 AM | http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/_/2005/03/schiavo_hudson_and_nikolouzos.php
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934
Sun Hudson, a six-month-old boy with a fatal congenital disease, died Thursday after a Texas hospital, over his mother's objections, withdrew his feeding tube. The child was apparently certain to die, but was conscious. The hospital simply decided that it had better things to do than keeping the child alive, and the Texas courts upheld that decision after the penniless mother failed, during the 10-day window provided for by Texas law, to find another institution willing to take the child .
Where, I would ask, is the outrage? In particular, where is the outrage from those like Tom DeLay, who referred to the withdrawal of Terry Schiavo's life support as "murder"? If it's appropriate to Federalize the Schiavo case, what about the people being terminated simply because their cases are hopeless and their bank accounts empty?
Sun Hudson is dead, but 68-year-old Spiro Nikolouzos is still alive, thanks to an emergency appeals court order issued yesterday. However, his life support could be cut off at any moment. A nursing home is willing to take him if his family can show that he will be covered by Medicaid after his Medicare runs out. Otherwise, the hospital gets to pull the plug.
The Texas cases contrast with the Schiavo case in two ways:
1. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, but isn't terminal. The two Texas patients were terminal but not vegetative. It seems to me that the distinction between a patient who is aware and a patient who isn't aware is the morally relevant one, while the disctinction between a death that is sure to occur soon and a death that is sure to occur eventually is morally irrelevant. (Try pleading as a defense to a murder charge that the victim had a terminal ailment.)
2. Terry Schiavo's husband has decided that she would have wanted to die, and the courts have upheld his view against the view of her parents. The mother of Sun Hudson wanted her child to live, and the wife and children of Spiro Nikolouzos want him to live. So while the Schiavo case is an intra-family dispute, the two Texas cases pit the families against health-care institutions motivated at least in part by financial considerations. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 6:51:45 AM | | Deutoeronomy 31:19 "this day I call heaven and earth as witneses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life so that you and your children may live," | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 7:01:44 AM | Leviticus 19:19
"You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material."
By the way, God's punishment for wearing a shirt of blended fabrics (like the cotton/polyester blend I'm wearing) is death. Thanks for playing the bible-quoting game!  | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 7:25:41 AM | There was no living will made. Because of the insurance money that the Hubby stands to gain, I find his assertions of Terry's wishes highly suspect. Further, she is not brain dead, can feel pain, and is not in a persistent vegetative state (contrary to what he has said).
This is precisely why we all need to have living wills and powers of attorney. There are many people out there who are severely brain damaged yet are kept alive via feeding tubes. Should we all then forfeit their right to live?
Personally, I would not want to live on if I were in Terry's position. However, without a will, I see no other alternative but to keep her alive. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 8:45:25 AM |
Someone has to be paying the medical bills
After the massive hospital bills that the husband will be responsible for, how much of that million will be left from the insurance anyway?
Personally, I believe that fighting death like this is not only futile, but it is using resources that could better serve somebody who is more likely to survive.
If she were my wife, I would quietly give her an injection that gently put her into a permanent sleep. The emotional trauma over an extended period of time will be more detrimental to the survivors, which is what this is really about, then if she died now and all were forced to deal with their grief. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 11:58:01 AM | "In cases like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life," President Bush notes in a statement.
I'm no fan of Bushco....but he is dead on in this statement. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 1:51:31 PM | babylonia: He finds this one life politically advantageous to defend. If it weren't for the fact that he invaded a country and started a war for no good reason, cut funding to children's hospitals and cut educational funding to so many organizations, I might think there was a faint streak of good in him.
As it is, I believe they're right on this one issue; but otherwise, he's a thief and a murderer.
If you think he's compassionate, you should have seen him on the talk show where he squinched up his face to mock the woman on death row who begged for her life when he was governor of Texas... | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 2:49:02 PM | so all I can say for sure is that I don't believe in euthanasia.
Removing someones supply of nutrition is not euthanasia, it is starvation. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 3:35:19 PM | I agree with sealacamp. After seeing film footage of Terri Shiavo, with her eyes following the person in front of her, I don't know how aware she is, but she sees something. I think it would be wrong to take her life.
Still, it's kind of ironic that way the republicans are... if someone's on the verge of death or close to brain death or if they're an unborn baby, they'll fight tooth and nail and even shorten their recess to go in and keep them alive... (and I'm all for that, actually!)
But once someone gets born, it's like "get outta my way. You want education? You want milk money? You want enough wages to pay for a decent place to live? UP YOURS BUDDY!!!.. come back and see me when you're 18 and we can send you off to Iraq or something!" | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 5:19:17 PM | I am not sure what sort of republicans you are talking about. I don't know any like that and I am not that way.
However that crack head woman that was walking around my job this morning asking for money, undoubtedly to get more crack, got a big no from all of us there. It is not like I don't want help someone but to enable someone to stay on what ever they are hooked on just isn't right. Especially when there are plenty of jobs around here. I believe in helping others as much as I can but it is hard to tell when it is help or enablement. You have to draw a line somewhere or every slacker in the world will be at your trough instead of trying to make a way for themselves. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 5:26:56 PM | | All I have to say is that if I ever wind up in her condition I don't want to be starved. I want the needle. Get it over with and put me down. Life like that isn't life at all. It is nothing but heartache to all your loved ones. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 5:42:54 PM | Notwithstanding the debate of left versus right...
People in this issue are mistaking the appearance (and the claims of her mother) against the medical reality. This woman, according to doctors, is in what is referred to as a persistent vegetative state. That precludes any conscious recognition of her mother or anything around her. What they see is instinctual and nothing more.
Hurt to see it? Of course, but it does not change the reality which is that this woman ceased to be the woman she was 13 years ago. What they have now is a cardboard cut out. No doctor has said she has more than a small bit of living tissue in her cerebral cortex. Most say she has none.
Let me be clear, even the independent guardian assigned to her in 2003 said these were primal reflexes and NOT response to stimuli (family).
Do not be fooled by what is the simply false statements of a hidden agenda (from the christian right, using this woman as a pawn) or the poor, heartbroken mother's misunderstandings.
She died 13 years ago. | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 7:40:29 PM | AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:
1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge.
2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.
3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April of 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there.
4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as extremely odd.
5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as "This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting.
6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.
7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper.
8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.
9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?," "Has she died yet?" and "When is that **** gonna die?" These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include "Can't you do anything to accelerate her death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.
10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!," and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.
11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood
sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting.
12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as "They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact that it didn't seem to attract any attention. She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She
said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."
13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him.
14. While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal safety. This was due to Michael's constant intimidation, including his menacing body language, vocal tone and mannerisms.
15. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known.
FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.
CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.
The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of September, 2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida driver's license as identification, and who did / did not take an oath.
(Non-text portions of this message have been removed) | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 7:54:09 PM | | do you really believe that this could be going on with a whole staff knowing about it and nobody went home and said something | |
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| Terri Schiavo and Euthanasia
Posted: 3/21/2005 9:06:36 PM | #7 and #8 are a lie.
The amount of live brain matter she has inside her head make that impossible. Let me repeat.
The amount of live brain tissue in her cerebellum make claims seven and eight, where she recognizes voices, responds with words to stimuli and any of the memory functions are a lie.
Lie. Why do this? Many reasons...but mostly it is a cruel, almost criminal, attempt to provide false hope to a mother who is absolutely broken hearted. It is a lie. Even doctors who are arguing for her to stay alive...argue her 'abilities' that make her non vegetative consist of being able to follow a balloon with her eyes. And that claim was pretty clearly refuted (they used exerpts of what seems was really only chance).
The other stuff? Maybe that's true, maybe not. Either way, sounds like a jilted ex staffer, possibly put up to this by certain parties with an axe to grind and an agenda to forward...but more importantly, I think it would be prudent to remember that however the husband acts...I would never deign to predict how any human being would act under that stress. It is not proof of anything other than a likely shattered man.
Generally, that 'affidavit' is suspicious on most points. But it is an out and out lie on those two. | |
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