| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 5:38:58 PM | Ok, first off this isn't some kind of a whiny "Why don't women like me?" sort of thing. It's not, I know why I have trouble with women, and it's not because they don't like me.
Not at all really, and I definitely don't think I am alone in this.
See, I started recently to make this particular area of my life a priority (I AM 36 after all), so I started reading and listening to audio files. Yes, the ones about learning how to get a date. And no, I'm not ashamed at all. It's something that has been missing in my life and I never knew it until very recently.
I think back to all those times when I was a kid and some crush or other was defeated or unreturned, and like most people I would mope around and feel like shit for days after. I had a "best friend" who also happened to be the captain of the cheeleading squad - and I was close friends with most of the rest of the squad, half the football and basketball teams, the group of punk rockers I grew up with, and who knows how many other people. Hell, I had people I would swear I've never met before proudly tell me their locker was 7 down from me when they were in grade ****ing 10! I've never played sports, I'm not rich, I'm 5'6" or 5'7", and very slight of build (I was 140 lbs in grade 11, 152 now). No reason at all for me to be so popular in High School...and yet I was. People seem to remember me, and like me, and I don't know why.
A while back you started to skim and ask yourself "so what? Pompous ass."
So go back and tell me why I was a virgin until age 18, why I still, to this day have trouble working up the courage to go and talk to a woman...any woman....if by talking to her means that I am showing that I want more than a friendship.
Ok, I don't really expect you to. It took me years to begin to figure it out. If you know already - well I condensed it to the point where it was easy - that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I don't know what I'm doing.
Simple eh? Don't get me wrong, once I actually get a girl I sprinkle the crazy in slowly...just like I'm supposed to. I'm also definitely satisfactory in other areas (so I'm told). I know what I'm doing there. What I don't know is how to go from "Hi" to kissing.
So like the rest of the world I make sure I get really drunk first. But it's not the best solution.
Anyway, back to the dating advice for men....
Most of this stuff is so counter to what as boys we are told to do, it's laughable. It's positively ....1950's!!! This is all stuff that I imagine player Dads hand down to player Sons in secret rituals in the secret basement. Ok, exaggeration, but think about it...how can a Mom give good advice to a boy about women?
Case in point: The cheerleader girl. LOVED her, ever since we met. We hit it off perfectly almost instantly....I was just like a brother to her.
Dejected I go home, and Mom finds me moping. Asks what's wrong, I tell her, and out she comes with this little gem (By the way, at the time it was normal for everyone to live with thier Mom - Grade 9). Mom tells me to buy her a gift, treat her nice, and ask her out.
Anyone see the problem here? I sure didn't until recently. I was acting like a complete ****, begging her to treat me like a doormat - to show my "love". There was no attraction. I eventually figured that out, but again I took more of Mom's advice and showed her how "compatible" we are in subtle ways....like telling her for instance.
All I can say is it's a damn good thing you women don't usually have to do that "hitting"...we'd all die out in a generation.
Here's what I imagine a savvy Dad would do in the same situation....
Dad finds me moping...I spill my guts. He tells me to ignore her then, and two things will happen. I'll stop looking like a jackass, and I'll notice other women who may actually be attracted. And then he'd tell me how to figure out if a woman actually IS attracted. And then he'd tell me some ways to make her feel attraction (Ok, there are a LOT of Dads out there that don't know this either, but hey...you're here so at least he got SOME sometime in the past...).
So here's the thing really: Guys...stop being a chickenshit and go talk to the women you find attractive, if she doesn't get into you, hit on her friend. It's not like you owe them anything, just make sure you're not a prick about it.
And women, you cannot possibly know the terror that is approaching a woman at a bar - especially if she is sitting at a table with friends. Don't think for a minute that not having Dad around hasn't affected your relationships either - do you know how weird it is to hear the bitter, angry words of a 45 year old divorcee come out of a 20-something's mouth? Contempt for men might play well in the power games, but it ultimately means a LOT less dates for most of you. And who the hell thought being a **** was sexy anyway?
I don't know where I am going from here as far as attitude or ability, but one thing I know for sure is that I need help. I'm not ashamed to admit it, I am ashamed I waited so damn long. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 5:56:22 PM |
So like the rest of the world I make sure I get really drunk first. But it's not the best solution
Liquid courage... cant beat it with a stick. Just make sure its not so much you make a mess of her shoes.
Dad finds me moping...I spill my guts. He tells me to ignore her then, and two things will happen. I'll stop looking like a jackass, and I'll notice other women who may actually be attracted. And then he'd tell me how to figure out if a woman actually IS attracted. And then he'd tell me some ways to make her feel attraction
Sounds like youll make a great dad one day.
So here's the thing really: Guys...stop being a chickenshit and go talk to the women you find attractive
SWEET JESUS! dont share that secret! the more whining "nice guys" in the world there are leaves more girls for me! Save that advice for your son.
J | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 5:57:29 PM | I think I know what audio files and text you are referring to and found them quite absurd.
The whole premise in his nutshell is that he is teaching guys to be "cocky and funny".
More like, disrepectful to women.
I have met women that talk with a guy on the phone and he is nice to them and
when they meet, the guy is arrogant and****. This, by the way turns off women.
You don't need an audio tape to tell you that.
I was shy and quiet when I was younger, I started to live after my friend died in a car
accident after my 21th B-day.
Now, you can't shut me up.
The key to meeting women is simple, be yourself(confident), be honest, communitacte,
make them laugh, be a good listener and treat them like you would treat your mom or sister,
WITH RESPECT.
Don't be ashamed of what you didn't do in the past, be proud of what you can accomplish now. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 6:28:41 PM | | well, I guess I could classify myself among the tortured little souls of the world in some ways, but not in the ways you are. Most of the time the attraction has been mutual in my case, so none of the unrequited stuff youve experienced. Finding someone "attractive" doesnt mean there is an attraction ...it doesnt mean anything. Anyway, try this one on: people live in a dream. Nothing is personal. They look out, see what they see, feel what they feel, think what they think, all of it is very subjective and very little resembles reality. So no one has rejected you, the reality, certainly not someone in a bar youve known for, say, a minute, right? | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 6:31:39 PM |
SWEET JESUS! dont share that secret! the more whining "nice guys" in the world there are leaves more girls for me! Save that advice for your son.
I nearly spit out my Coke at that one.
And this guy.....
More like, disrepectful to women.
Clearly does not get it (no offense meant).
The series is about living your life for YOU, not anyone else. It's about reclaiming things that most men have lost....the things nearly any woman would tell you makes a "real man".
Like I said, I'm no cringing ninny...I have a TON of female friends who love to share perspectives with me. All this post was about was maybe, just maybe, there were a few more guys out there like me.
And falling all over yourself to get a woman may work in the short term with some women, but usually those aren't the ones that are healthy to be with. Trust me, I know that one too.
All I did was finally listen to what was being communicated, rather than what was said.
Sort of. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 6:53:16 PM |
And women, you cannot possibly know the terror that is approaching a woman at a bar I can see being a shade nervous, but terrorized? That's a phobic response. Behvioral therapy works for that. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 7:01:52 PM | OP very insightful post. I think you hit the nail on the head about the advice from parents. The gender roles really rear their ugly heads in that situation don't they?
If it counts for anything, you're the kind of guy that all the nice girls I know deserve to have in their lives. The thoughtful kind. One who reflects on his own role in his own destiny.
Few and far between in the man world I'll tell ya! At least in my experience!
Good luck to you and hey if you can find that perfect balance between confidence and sensitivity...let me in on the secret would you?  | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 8:08:21 PM | | I get tired of reading very long post, no matter how interesting the topic is. After the first few paragraphs if it still doesnt state the main topic, I lost interest and forget the first few lines. But I still want to post my response. Remember: KISS...keep it simple, short.... | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 8:12:13 PM | can i get the abridged version... you lost me at "why don't women like me"
Please dont make a dumbed-down version, the literate folks out here like what you had to say.
Maybe we could just have a pictures only section of the forums for people who cant be bothered to read someone elses thoughts. Heaven forbid someone have thoughts more complex than can be written in 20 words or less.
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 8:32:17 PM | The key to meeting women is simple, be yourself(confident), be honest, communitacte,
make them laugh, be a good listener and treat them like you would treat your mom or sister,
WITH RESPECT.
And the key to being yourself is not giving a shit what someone else thinks of you--and that, in itself, can be interpreted as arrogant. Being yourself is supposed to be the magic key, isn't it? Being yourself is a pain in the ass because people fail to point out the fact that there will still be plenty of people who won't like who you are. And it is during times like these that you shouldn't give a shit. Being yourself is tough. It's tough because people, in general, want to be liked by others. If you are yourself, you won't care whether others like you or not.
Be yourself. You bet. Yet there are still consequences. I won't sugar-coat it for you.
And they key to meeting people has nothing to do with being yourself. It has to do with whether or not you have the courage to approach women and say, "Hi." Being yourself has nothing to do with it. You can always pretend to be a courageous person when you aren't. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 8:39:39 PM | I've looked for information like this......I've seen the "cocky and funny"
stuff (which I agree is at least half BS) and really havn't found a lot
of advice, partly because what works for one guy may not work for
you......unless you can learn to be very phony.....and be good at it.
If you really want to "learn" what works for you I'll give you a secret.
Practice! Just like anything else, if you want be good at it......practice!
There are two ways I like for getting in some valuable practice.
1) Go to an area or city where you rarely go......maybe even on a trip
or a vacation.......and practice on the women there.......all you have
to do is convince yourself it doesn't matter if it works or not, because
you're not going to be around to date these women anyways!
2) Hit on or flirt with women who you're NOT attracted to.....just for the
practice......and pay attention to their reaction.
I don't recommend taking things too far......I'm not advocating using these
women in either example.......but just see what their reaction is......you'll
learn what works and you'll likely make some of those women feel good
because a nice guy was flirting with them. You'll find that you get much
more comfortable fairly quickly. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 8:53:27 PM | The thing about those advice thingys telling you to be this and be that to get women interested in you, lets say that works, well guess what? You got someone interested in you by being someone that you usually arent.
In my opinion, you are already off to a bad start. I try to be myself, women usually like that. If not, to hell with you, lol. I don't change my behaviour, because that would be faking. My goal isn't to meet a lot of women, its to meet ONE that enjoys my company, and I enjoy hers. Thats all. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 10:29:42 PM |
The thing about those advice thingys telling you to be this and be that to get women interested in you, lets say that works, well guess what? You got someone interested in you by being someone that you usually arent.
This is the logical divide I lived in for years....I wanted to be the guy that could snap this shit off like he was born with it, but that isn't me so I rejected it.
I should clear something up here, a logical enough mistake to make, but a mistake nonetheless. I am not hurting for female attention. Quite the opposite a lot of the time. This isn't self-pity so much as it is acceptance of hard reality. So I will clarify a bit.
I had never in my life successfully asked out a girl/woman until the ripe old age of 31. I have also never been more than 3 months without a girlfriend, and I was married and have 2 kids. And as stupid as it sounds, or braggy, it's ALWAYS been the woman hitting me on the head...HARD...before I knew she was interested. I don't mean strong hints, I mean kissing and on more than one occasion outright offers of oral sex. But let's get real, it won't go on forever and it's not good to just go with what you have at times.
I've progressed since then, as I've learned to recognize a bit better if a woman is interested, and even I have to admit my inability to recognize attraction borders on the insane...but it's quite true. Unfortunately I have the subsequent rise in false positives to deal with now...
The whole point is that this information is useful on more than the surface level. If all you see in this kind of thing is pick up lines or fashion advice then you got very little value for your money, in my opinion. And frankly, that ties back to my OP quite nicely really. The pick up lines and routines and "surface shit" is the stuff you learn from your buddies....it's the deeper psychological underpinnings that are affected by missing parents. The confidence instilled by moms and dads - each differently - can't be duplicated or replaced easily, if at all (see - mom's advice to me above). Any good dating advice book will attempt at least to address these issues in depth in my opinion.
All those of us that don't know already can do is learn. Choosing not to is a choice I stopped making. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 10:33:12 PM | I can see being a shade nervous, but terrorized? That's a phobic response. Behvioral therapy works for that.
Quite possibly considering I am talking about exactly that. Speaking from one guy to another, it's a little rude to snark at someone for feeling something isn't it? Or is it just superiority I detect?
can i get the abridged version...
No. | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/11/2006 10:35:50 PM |
If it counts for anything, you're the kind of guy that all the nice girls I know deserve to have in their lives.
I frankly can't possibly imagine a day when someone saying that to me wouldn't count. Thank you very much.
As to the balance...I'm convinced that's a moving target.
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/12/2006 6:58:32 AM | | I agree in a way. Forget everything you knew about dating in high school. The dating sites and single/ divorced are everywhere now and its' easy to find sex or someone to hook up with. The days of chasing women are over. They either are interested or they are not. If not, adios because there are a dozen ready and eaager to find a man. More so if you are someone who is attractive to the opposite sex. I don't have any problems finding women. Finding the right one is another matter. But, whats the hurry? | |
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| A few thoughts on Male / Female Relations.
Posted: 10/12/2006 7:14:26 AM |
Quite possibly considering I am talking about exactly that. Speaking from one guy to another, it's a little rude to snark at someone for feeling something isn't it? Or is it just superiority I detect?
Characterize the response as snarky, by what criterion? How you felt reading it, or how it was intended?
Short and to the point. And evidently you agree it is accurate.
It doesn't take my feeling superior to make you feel inferior. It could be you just feel inferior, and that is why you fear approaching women. You are afraid they will find out and call you on it.
What else would there be to fear?
You seem to be hung up on being judged and not being able to get love because you are deemed unworthy. The women will not accept you or want you.
Why isn't your assumption that they will want and admire you? What is the basis for your assumption that effort will only bring failure?
Looking for some "tricks" that "work with women" in order to "get them to like you"...how about the idea that just by being yourself, some women will, by being themselves, notice the music that happens when you're together?
Nature didn't single you out as the world's only unlovable man who has to sneak into the pantry for some sugar. You are just misinformed about what attraction and love are.
Even if you were the biggest dork, the least socially capable, the most hopeless non-romantic going, there would still be female version of you out there whose little heart would squeal with joy upon finally finding you. Your job is to exist and notice her. That is the same for the most polished, socially perfected smoove operator hunk stud, and his amazingly perfect sex kitten socialite millionaire bunny buns.
Don't mistake the world as being what your fears make it seem. | |
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