| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 12:02:15 PM | I met a girl at a smalltown bar about 3 1/2 weeks ago, as she was there with her co-workers, who I knew of. I hung out there, with she and the co-workers, got her number, and we started hanging out shortly thereafter. She works about 60 hours a week, and all that we would do is get together for a couple drinks late at night, near where I live & work. We've hung about about 3-4 times a week. We've kissed, but that's about it... nothing really close to "making out". After the first few times, I semi-humorously mentioned that something was up with her, as she always seemed nervous, even though I'm laid back, but she said that the age difference (she's 21, I'm 29) affected her, but that shouldn't and won't. She hasn't been noticably nervous since then, and on a couple occasions of having more than just a couple drinks, she was actually outgoing to kiss me in public. However, besides that, she pre-emptively establishes a distance position & vibe in key ways, to prevent it from moving forward. She isn't comfortable about spending time away from public settings, even after this time.
I know she doesn't see me as just a friend -- a guy she's starting to see, which she said clearly while also casually nixing that we were merely friends. However, that doesn't necessarily mean much to some people, and to some women, it can basically mean virtually the same. She had a bad/scary-ending relationship in the past, lives with her parents whose mom is a little overbearing, an intelligent girl, but definitely still a bit of a party/crazy mentality that's left over from her past in college -- so it's a bit odd that she'd be really cautious if she was into a guy, right?
Anyway, what do I do to move it into the "dating" phase? I'm not relationship-hunting nor looking for some quick action -- just some sort of noticable progression. It seems like a waste of time if we hang out for 2-3 hour stints 3-4 times a week, but nothing ensues beyond a couple kisses goodnight each time, and her always mentioning early on that she has stuff to do to prevent much more than that from happening. After all, each time, we've drank! lol Am I being impatient, or is it normal for someone to sorta-see someone for 1 month+, in order to move on to 1st base or a true comfort-level zone (ie beyond a few drinks in public)? | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 12:55:22 PM | I cannot believe that people are trying to delete this tread?? This guy is asking for advice so give it to him!!!!
here it is: Duse this relationship will not work, she is givin you the subtle hints. She is embarrassed by the age thing and she thinks she can just string u along. Most people a that age think that they have the world by the tail and their indestryuctable, now, you have lived a lot longer than she has and you should have figured it out by now, i know my lie isnt perfect, but i can see where u are headed.
Beat feet! | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 12:58:18 PM | Sorry guy, but I'm pretty sure that she isn't ready to progress at this point.. at least not from what you describe.
Maybe she really does see you as a friend, or maybe she just isn't ready for anything other than a "few casual kisses goodnight"
Hope that it works out for you..
If I were you, I would just lay it out there.. just that this is more than friendship to you and that you really want more at this point. See how it goes. Waiting and wondering is sufferage.
OP  | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 1:22:38 PM | Yeah -- I have laid it out to her before, in a light/generic way, and she admits she's weird, but "no, it's not like that at all..." (referring to really just wanting to be friends, etc). She's the one who calls me more often than not. It's not like I'm poor sap sitting there saying "Oh, I hang out with her, why doesn't she like me??" She likes me at least to some extent -- but so what?
I've gotten mixed feedback from people, which is why I thought I'd put it up on these forums. A couple of girls have said that they liked it that "nothing happened" for a while in the stretched-out dawn of dating with a guy -- and that she's not THAT weird.
I'm just wondering that if I hang out with her once more and give her the motion to sink or swim if nothing's progressing, would I be impatient? We hang out as more than just friends -- but hardly not much more than that. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 1:37:39 PM | Have you considered that possiblity that she already sees your relationship as "dating"? She is still young and may wish to wait for sex until marriage (or at least longer than a few weeks).
This is one of the issues that come up with certain age differences (for some people). You assume "dating" means "sex". She assumes "dating" means "hanging out".
Just don't make her think you are in it for the long term and then disappear on her (ie: trick her into bed). Be honest about what you need in a relationship and how you see your future with her. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 1:45:38 PM | | Seems like a waste of time if your not looking for a relationship with her...and maybe she knows that too.....come one bucko...we know what your really REALLY want..and good for her for not being a booty call for you... | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/16/2006 2:19:59 PM | Athulatha,
Have you considered that possiblity that she already sees your relationship as "dating"?
Yes, I've considered that she may consider it dating, even though things are hardly past being more than just friends (chemistry included). If I was JUST trying to get some action, though, I wouldn't have posted this up.
And to everyone -- what I mean by progression is that one being comfortable spending time on a couch, watching a movie with the other person -- ie a more intimate environment and a desire for it, which obviously leads to at least some level of intimacy. After the first 10 times hanging out with someone, when you're seeing them, being on 1st base with them shouldn't be a chore or something to avoid.
Getting to 1st base is a far cry from a home run (sex) -- actually moving things along, yes, does end up moving past a few kisses on nights of drinking, after so many times. It doesn't mean I'm just looking for a piece. Not at all. Situations that are suspended too long in this manner usually end up putting out any "sparks", in my opinion, as you get too used to it and any possible sensual/sexual tension dies out.
Sexual tension/making out/sensual desire does not equal the actual act of sex! However, I definitely like the mixed responses! | |
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| This guy's got a legit point
Posted: 10/16/2006 4:25:23 PM | Hmm – I feel compelled to come to this guy’s defence a little here. This girl’s 21, she’s not 16. She been to college – that’s usually the breeding ground for all sorts of extreme experiences, not to mention normal dating.
I just have a feeling this is a decent guy – look at the guy’s post! He’s not impatient. And he’s asking a very good and interesting question!
Also, there are a few other things: First, he’s never said he wanted sex, he just wants some progression. That’s reasonable, even by 1940’s standards. Second – so what if he does want sex? Isn’t that nearly a given? After all there’s nothing wrong with that at all, and nothing dishonest about it. Women assume that this is something that’s on a guy’s mind all the time anyway, and trust me, it is. There’s nothing wrong or out of the ordinary about wanting sex. More importantly, there’s no indication that this is ALL he wants, so how could his question possibly raise questions about his honesty towards this girl?
My take on this problem is to hang in there for awhile. It hasn’t been that long. And if you become friends, so be it. But maybe that’s not what you’re looking for, or maybe you don’t have time for that. Personally, I’d stick to it even if the relationship evolves into just a good friendship – it seems a good way to meet more people (and therefore potential datable people). | |
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| This guy's got a legit point
Posted: 10/17/2006 11:09:09 PM | greyymatter,
Thanks for the heads-up. Yes, I never overtly pushed for anything, and at the same time, I did set up situations where she knew I was leaning towards something a little more intimate.
It wasn't something towards a long-term relationship either, but honestly, it's one of those "you had to be there" -- I think everyone would be perplexed about it. Mixed reviews, many ascertations... Honestly, it wasn't worth it. A confused young girl, who seemingly was more mature for her age, didn't cut it.
I'm all for being friends, but without a boatload of ambiguity. If so, no, sorry, not for me. Yes, I like sex. Women like sex. Guys like sex. That has *nothing* to do with anything -- just because that's the endzone, it doesn't have anything to do with moving the chains down the football field. It all has to do with rhythm. People who categorize the story as something as simple as "you want her to jump on you?", is funny, and possibly due to guys making posts about not getting any after their first at-bat.
Anyway, I'm all good -- I posted the situation mainly in terms of future situations -- if a guy is in such a situation, how patient should a guy be, if he's not trying to necessarily move too fast, or coinciding with going too slow? That's the simple question, requesting female feedback. :) | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/15/2009 5:44:13 PM | Have you uh... tried um.. ASKING HER OUT? Maybe she doesn't 'hook-up'. Maybe she thinks you're a player and all you want to do is see her late in the eve, have a few beers, and try to get some. That is what I would think if a man couldn't take the risk of rejection by boldly asking me for a date, time, place, and event.  | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/31/2009 1:46:47 AM | OMG, this thread is 3 years old. First, Good Good Girl, I'll respond to your response, then I'll give my old self advice. ;)
She was a youngin from a bad relationship not wanting one -- and no, nothing indicating she wanted a "formal date" situation. In fact, all roads pointed to informal. Which caused the confusion -- she called me much more than myself to her, and wanted it casual, like that. And for the record, I would set up a date, time, place, and event. It just wasn't formal -- it was a specific place to hang out at and when. Of course, many times it was last minute, but that's when she'd call me.
To Old self: Dude, classic situation. It doesn't matter why or how, she wasn't that interested. You'll never get the -real- honest truth as to why someone isn't that into you... it sounds like games, but at the same time it makes sense. You're not going to tell someone it's because of their nose, which they can't help, and you're not going to tell someone because of a personality trait, because they'll try and prove themselves by a half-failed attempt at changing it, and it just becomes weird. At the same time, people worry about "what did I do wrong?" which is why they post these threads, and the honest answer is "You're not going to figure it out from him/her; they'll only throw you off if they do give you an answer".
Bottom line -- it doesn't matter what the reason behind the scenes, nor what their past traumatic experiences with others has been -- if they really dig you, they'll really dig you. If they do the whole 7th grade level of interest of a little kissing, and they're not Amish or the like, block out reasons they give or you give yourself as to why -- they aren't really into you. Real attraction = sexual attraction. If you're truly sexually attracted, they will need no decoder ring to figure out if you are -- it will reveal itself in short order. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 10/31/2009 9:35:06 PM | | There is quite an age gap in your situation. If you were 45 and she under 40, then I don't think it would make much difference but she is not long out of the school experience and she probably has much less experience of dating. That's enough to make anyone unsure and want to take it slowly. Even if she has dating experience, the life experience of someone eight years older than her makes a big difference. It could be that even though she likes you and is attracted to you, she can sense that you're at a different point to her and that is causing her conflict. As she obviously finds you attractive, she may not understand why she feels a conflict either. At her age, I would have seen someone more than three years older as being out of my age range. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:46:01 PM | msteriosa,
Yes, if a girl (or guy) is in their early 20s, you'll find situations like I was in much more. Many have a lack of dating experience (firsthand or observational)... and probably the #1 thing about dating experience is that you become honest with yourself in TRULY knowing if you REALLY are that interested in someone, or whether you'd be wasting your time.
With that said, a woman in her 30s or 40s -- you'll still find that too. How? "Fresh" off a divorce or long-term breakup, and they haven't been single in god-knows-how-long and it's like they're young again... or even just not maturing in that realm, as it's just a core part of them...or just the basic "I need to date" being the focal point, instead of "I really like him/her". | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/2/2009 5:53:13 PM | On Sexual attraction: I wouldn't sleep with a man I would not trust with a key to my HOUSE! I am not joking. I am not Amish.
On Physical Attraction: That is very important.
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/2/2009 9:24:21 PM | Good Good Girl,
<div class="quote">I wouldn't sleep with a man I would not trust with a key to my HOUSE! I am not joking. I am not Amish.
That's actually fine and wasn't what I was talking about. Although, yes, you probably do come close, due to what you posted originally and followed with. Doing more than awkward kisses isn't sex. "Progression" meaning awkwardness disappears, and when you are out together, you're not like friends... and physical openness increases, regardless of one's pace. If a gal's doing that, and you have to "work" to get any kissing done, she doesn't have any REAL interest in you (even if she's deranged and believes otherwise). Girls who are traditional -- they'll have to twist their own arm, but you'll see that.
I'm talking about acting the same way as if they had thoughts of "obligation" on their mind, instead of "desire".
Teenwolf,
If I remember correctly, there was a point near the end of the hiatus that we were both a little drunk and we made out some, if you could call that first base. Depends on how you'd define it, as it wasn't much more than what teens do, and didn't last very long... and she backed off pretty quick and have to run home immediately after.
The overall thing is (whether women believe it or not) -- if they dig you, there won't be much awkwardness past the first date or so about physical touching after a few drinks. If a gal does have real interest, there won't be blatant mixed signals defining the time you spend with them. One could split hairs and say "Oh, there can be interest because I'm like blah-blah-blah", but we're talking about legit interest. If someone's "values" or past bad experiences tie them up so much, and a little interest is a lot to them, that doesn't count. :) It's an actual REASONABLE "bar" set for how much interest they have -- otherwise the other person's wasting their time. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:19:15 PM | CR, I agree with you- if there is attraction, it will soon make itself evident.
It is certainly possible for people to have mixed feelings- feeling attracted, but also resisting that attraction for one reason or another. It's a matter of maturity (not necessarily age; I've met 40 year olds less mature than some 20-somethings) if they are able to understand their feelings and thus progress past their ambivalence, to clearly state and go after what they want. At this point in my life, getting such mixed messages is a sign that that person isn't yet emotionally mature enough to be compatible with me, and I instantly lose interest in further pursuit. I might make an exception if I truly felt the person was actively committed to better understanding themselves and communicating well with me. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:35:04 PM | Correction/Clarification on my previous post to Good Good Girl:
"Progression" meaning awkwardness disappears, and when you are out together, you're not like friends... and physical openness increases, regardless of one's pace. If a gal's NOT progressing, and you would have to "work" to kiss, almost as if it's your 2nd cousin or something, she doesn't have any interest in you -- regardless of her reasons (reasons are just explanations as to why they're not interested, even if they don't see it that way). Girls who are traditional -- they WON'T have to twist their own arm for progression... traditional girls will have to twist their own arm to "hold back", and you'll see that and know that there IS interest, as opposed to those who are obviously out with obligation on their mind, not desire.
Stfuandkissme,
Yeah, I agree -- the ambivalence past the 1st date... that's a lack of maturity. And as you pointed out, there are 40-somethings with a lack of maturity in the dating department, and some will note that they are due to being new on the dating circuit since god-knows-how-long-ago, and feel obligated to "go out".
As an fyi -- I'm not ranting whatsoever -- just noting observations! | |
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| With that said, a woman in her 30s or 40s -- you'll still find that too.
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:22:54 PM | I think you forgot IMO here..seems like an over generalization to me.
Let me tell you, as a woman who will be "fresh" off a divorce very soon...
I am already very honest with myself about what I need in a relationship and what I can offer someone.
I don't think everyone needs to date oodles of people before they become more selective and choose people who are a good fit.
Believe me, I don't plan on wasting time dating just any guy, for the sake of dating.
If I am not interested in someone...I don't pursue it...it's that simple.
If I met a good match and we were mutually into eachother on many levels...that would become the focal point without hesitation. | |
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| With that said, a woman in her 30s or 40s -- you'll still find that too.
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:13:24 PM | | That part wasn't a generalization -- I was pointing out that you can STILL FIND folks who are older being the same as youngins, when it comes to not understanding things. Not all 21 year olds are like that, not all 40-somethings hot off a divorce are like that... but you will find that in both realms (and other realms too), the point being -- it's not just an age thing. | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:04:20 PM | I think the problem you have is that all you have done is "Hang out." Hang out has the problem that it does not indicate romantic intentions and all kissing, or cajoling comes across as buddy, buddy behavior. So to start with you need a chance of scenery. And that is go to a different place, maybe even not a bar, but a restaurant that has a bar area, thus you can drink together, but be a bit more intimate. Second, isolate. That is you go to a place YOU select, just the two of you. No other friends of hers or yours.
Also, you need to decide what this relationship may or may not be. You can't play friend and more than friend at the same time.
But here's the big problem, she seems to be giving you the I don't have time line. Usually that means that she more than likely has no romantic interest in you. So my advice is to ping her. Yes, you probably have heard me say this before, but by pinging her you can see if she may be receptive to escalation. If she is not. You got your message and all she is, is a drinking buddy.
To ping her, I do recommend you do the chance of scene, so she knows it's just you and her. Pick the bar area or a table where you sit at 45% angle. This is very important because you are going to test her (pinging). What you do is start kino, but then stop and pull back. The key to pinging is that she pings back. She leans forward to talk to you. She then starts touching you. She makes you eat some of her food. If she responds, escalate, but always remain one step behind. Almost neg her. Meaning, tell her "Hey, I am not that easy." Or fun little stuff like that.
Now if you do this right, she should be the one initiating the kissing, but do not start at the end of the evening, but in the middle. Now, what I am about to say may piss off some of our ladies of the forums, but it has to happen at some point, and that is you need to start initiating private intimacy. How do you do this. I am quite sure that you know how, but here's an example. By now you know many things about her and she about you. You could have mentioned a wine collection of yours, or paintings, or whatever, it just happens to be at your place, or her place. If you are a good cook, offer to cook for her. Start by describing in detail how to prepare the dish, how do you serve it. Then drop the subject. You could ask her about something that she collects. It could be shoes, it could be paintings, whatever. Tell her that you would love to see the collection. It could be Vinyl records. You bring it up and then you drop it out of the conversation. Again, you are sending signals that are charged, but you are also waiting for her to send those signals back.
How does she send signals back? Simple. She will say, wow, I never had a man cook for me. Are you going to invite me? Or, if is something she has, she could then say, maybe some time you can come over and I'll show you my old 33s.
Again, you escalate as she escalates. But be rather overt, so all this energy going back and forth is charge with sexual energy, not buddy buddy energy. | |
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| That part wasn't a generalization -- I was pointing out....
Posted: 11/7/2009 6:30:59 AM | Confident-Realist,
I understand where you are coming from. Thank you for clarifying that. :)
I agree that it is definitely not just an age thing....
IMO, there are always going to be people who really don't mind who they spend time with; they just don't want to be alone. And then there are those that are more geared to "quantity" than "quality." | |
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| Bridging the gap to actually dating
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:55:11 PM | OutMind,
Yes, we did "hang out", although it wasn't as friends, nor was there any implication about that. It was additionally made very clear because many times, especially to kick things off, we were isolated. That part was a given, as I could provide other details (whether it was good 'game' that I applied or not), that would make it clear there was no gray area that she and I both knew as us having any friend-zone implications. And we actually never spent time in crowded bars or anything -- usually during the week in a corner table -- so it had one-on-one implications when we were isolated.
As far as hanging out is concerned, honestly, some girls (girls), want to just hang out, whether they're on any part of the spectrum of really digging the guy or ehh-not-that-interested. I don't think hanging out one-on-one was the problem, vs more-formal dinner dates for example.
But here's the big problem, she seems to be giving you the I don't have time line.
Reminder -- look at the date of the original post and my following posts in this thread. This was years ago. ;)
you need to start initiating private intimacy .... How do you do this. I am quite sure that you know how, but here's an example. By now you know many things about her and she about you. You could have mentioned a wine collection of yours, or paintings, or whatever, it just happens to be at your place, or her place. If you are a good cook, offer to cook for her. Start by describing in detail how to prepare the dish, how do you serve it.
I understand your main point -- to initiate private intimacy. It would have been very hard to apply that to her with that approach you mentioned, even in the ballpark range of things. The girl lived at her parents, was NOT looking for a boyfriend/commitment, and had no private intimate interests to feed off of. Put it this way... she'd be compared to the lazy college kid sitting on his couch smoking pot and just not caring about anything. She wasn't dressed that way or came off that way from a distance, but that was clearly how she was shortly after getting to know her.
I agree with your advice to a more mature or even mature-but-immature type of woman, but some women don't respond to that approach, and she was definitely one of them. Now, I will say looking back, first impressions really set the tone, and doing better & better-timed kino & conversation/word placement could have maybe established things a differently. However, I will say that I was not empty of that altogether, nor did I do anything to shoot myself in the foot by any means... thus, I doubt that for anything more than a short period of time, would it (which would even be a stretch) been unweird w/ clear interested on her part.
In the end, moral of the story is that if a girl doesn't roll with innocent intimacy readily with you, ie that twist-her-arm vibe to do so, she's not interested. Could one, given the right time, tactics, and a bit of luck get her to be? Yeah, that's possible. But if you're already at the point of the reasonable time for even innocent intimacy and you have that vibe from her, chances are, you're at the point of virtually no return. | |
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