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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 10/31/2006 8:25:13 PM | Hazelton, Pennsylvania (USA): A law targeting illegal immigrants was to take effect in this small town next to Philadelphia, but a federal judge on Tuesday blocked the measure. It imposes fines on landlords who rent to illegal immigrants and denies business permits to companies that hire them. The law empowers city investigation of written complaints using a federal database. However, the opponents point out that the federal government has "exclusive" power to regulate immigration. Proponents cite drugs, crime and gangs have had an overwhelming effect upon police and municipal budgets.
U.S. District Judge James Munley ruled that landlords, tenants and businesses that cater to Hispanics faced "irreparable harm" from the laws and issued a temporary restraining order. He said it was "in the public interest to protect residents' access to homes, education, jobs and businesses.
Hazelton population has risen from 23,000 to 31,000 over the past six years, with Hispanics now representing 30% of the population. It is unclear how many came to the USA illegally, but assimilating such a large number of people has been difficult. Many European American (white) residents complain about rising crime and overburdened schools. Tensions have flared over relatively minor annoyances and cultural differences such as loud music.
Even more alarming is a 2nd ordinance requiring tenants to register their name, address and phone number at City Hall and pay $10 for a rental permit. Landlords who fail to make sure their tenants are registered can be fined $1,000, plus a penalty of $250 per tenant per day. The goal is to discourage illegal immigrants from even trying to rent in Hazleton. “Legal” immigrants have already been seriously affected by these discriminatory proposals.
Any comments or suggestions to ease the tensions amongst Hazelton residents and speculations about the legality of these "municipal" ordinances? | |
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Murlz
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Joined: 11/1/2005
Msg: 3 | |
| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 12:09:06 AM | It is unfortunate that the ACLU (or more appropiately, the ASPU - American Secular Progressive Union) advocates those in clear violation of Federal Law, under the guise of civil liberties.
Ease the tensions - This is not a difficult question. Americans overwhelminly support immigration, as do I, but it must be LEGAL and those who immigrate must ASSIMILATE (completely). | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 12:17:27 AM | | assimilate? with who and how would you envision that? don't you think that illegal immigrants have been here all along for economically advantageous reasons? don't you think that if the powers to be wanted them out, they would all be gone already? what about the repercussions for the legal immigrants? should they also assimilate? with who? i am interested in solutions. anyone have any? | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 12:47:40 AM | They are illegals. They are not going after legal immigrants. The fact that they broke the law by coming into this country mean nothing I think not. If they wanted to be here so bad they should come in legally.
And about the second part it sounds as they want all renters registered.Not just immigrants. | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 6 | |
| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 2:00:14 AM | NAU will be a reality in 2010...that's only 3 years
from today. It'll be totally legal for Mexicans, Americans and
Canadians to travel and work ANYWHERE in north america without
passports. Welcome to the new age!
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14965
Any comments or suggestions to ease the tensions amongst Hazelton residents and speculations about the legality of these "municipal" ordinances?
How's this...you guys are wasting your time. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 3:05:55 AM |
Proponents cite drugs, crime and gangs have had an overwhelming effect upon police and municipal budgets.
what a peaceful country the us would be without those criminal immigrants, especially those from cuba...........I applaud the measure.........it should be retroactive to the year 1450. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 3:32:26 AM | "President Bush described the significance of the SPP as putting forward a common commitment "to markets and democracy, freedom and trade, and mutual prosperity and security." Its boundaries will be defined by a common external tariff and an outer security perimeter within which the movement of people, products, and capital will be legal, orderly and safe. Its goal will be to guarantee a free, secure, just, and prosperous North America."
So, does this mean that eligible Mexican and Canadian males will be required to register and potentially serve protecting this new North American continent's interests and providing security or is the U.S. military going to be streched to new levels? If so, I now have the answer to a long time question of mine...the military went from "work smarter, not harder" to "do more with less" to "do everything with nothing" and I was wondering what the next step was..."do everything everywhere with nothing". I have no problem with people migrating to the US for a chance at a better life...if life was better in China how many US residents would migrate there? But if people are wanting the benefits of this country, they need to be prepared to defend and actively support that way of life as well. Just as any US residents (or former) who migrated to another country should be prepared to be responsible citizens of that country. Yeah, I know...and in Utopia... | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 3:35:11 AM | | yeah Hazelton! for the record, most americans support immigration. we are against the hardship caused all around by 'illegal' immigration (of people from any country - not just our southern neighbor). BIG difference. it's happening all around the world though. if it's good enough for switzerland and france, why not the u.s.? | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 3:54:57 AM | | I think the terminology is used quite a bit to "soften" the presentation of the issue. First and foremost they are not illegal immigrants, they are illegal aliens. Referring to them as immigrants gives the implication that they met every requirement except the permission documentation and that simply is not the case. Many of these illegal aliens do not qualify for US citizenship; in fact some cannot even enter the US legally due to criminal records, outstanding warrants, etc. The US has a history of bending over backwards to accept any emigrant who leaves his or her home country for purposes of religious or political persecution, but we are not a dumping ground for the dregs of other societies. The excerpt from the poem on the Statue of Liberty says "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free" not give us your rapists, murderers, bank robbers, drug dealers, car thieves and pedophiles... | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 11:30:30 AM | i'm all for it. you have to remember that these laws are not for hispanics, they are for illegal immigrants who are sucking away our funding for medical and education. illegal immigration has become a huge problem in the U.S. because when they come here illegaly they can use the medical facilities and the schools without paying into the tax system that funds these programs, the system can no longer withstand the weight. i don't think you should be able to get a drivers license in this country if you are an illegal immigrant either.
i'm all for hard working people that want to come here for a better life but when you try cheat the system that is set up to help you in the first place, there isn't any reason to complain when it bites you.
they are trying to start a guest worker program right now where all of the illegal immigrants that are currently here get temporary documentation with the possibility of full citizenship. these guest workers would be able to earn a full wage, pay taxes and take part in every other liberty that american citizens have except vote, they can't do that til they are a legal citizen of the U.S.....i think that is a good idea. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 2:51:02 PM |
they are trying to start a guest worker program right now where all of the illegal immigrants that are currently here get temporary documentation with the possibility of full citizenship. these guest workers would be able to earn a full wage, pay taxes and take part in every other liberty that american citizens have except vote, they can't do that til they are a legal citizen of the U.S.....i think that is a good idea.
Ronald Ragan tryed that policy during his run as president and all that happened was the amount coming across the bourders increased | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 4:19:52 PM | | Right On. Couldn't agree with you more.Illegal Criminal Aliens is the correct term. They are all criminals who have broken federal law and don't deserve guest worker status.the true numbers are closer to between 30 to 45 million illegal aliens from many parts of the world with the largest part from south of the border. Instead of waiting a year after 9/11 to invade afghanistan we should have Nuked them and Baghdad within 24 hours and sent our soldiers down to build a berlin type wall at our border then when completed they should have started a Nationwide round up of the illegal aliens branded them and sent them back to where they came from. Also border guards should have orders to shoot first and ask questions later, if, there are any survivors. That would severely curtail the influx of aliens. Another good point is that all of the illegal alien pregnant women who sneak into the country to have their children. Their babies should not be given U.S. citizenship. Only legal imigrants babies should be given citizenship. However,with all the left wing, limp wrist, politically correct, namby-pamby liberal socialists trying to destroy the country & government in a few years we'll probably become the United Socalists States of Mexico with spanish the official language.Then the Arab terrorist will probably strike and whats left will be a 4th world area run by the scum at the United Nations. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 9:40:00 PM | I'm very much against illegal immigration; but I have no animosity toward illegal immigrants. Alot of them want more to make an honest living than people in this country; BUT, it is a threat to this country insofar as people who are undocumented living here. There are always bad people, whether they're citizens or not; and when you have millions of people in the country you have no control over, they can be a very big criminal threat and present social problems insofar as disease, living conditions, using social services without paying, etc...
The contraband coming into this country and the criminal elements associated are causing big problems.
To them, it's like there's no police. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/1/2006 11:20:53 PM | thank you anticon for a less "emotionally charged" and humanistic answer and EWOK for some facts. i look forward to amiable relations with mexico and mutual opportunities. the same for canada. re lack of discrimination against "legal immigrants", SORRY it AIN'T happening. repercussions for legal immigrants in hazelton (according to the reporting) are severe. "severe" repercussions for anyone (legal or illegal) who has not personally assaulted or battered someone else, concern me. children are involved here people!!!
that being said i would like to stick to my topic as pertains to my question: that is as follows (to repeat):
*****Any comments or suggestions to EASE the tensions amongst Hazelton residents and speculations about the legality of these "municipal" ordinances?*****
please get out of the box and do some real thinking. you say assimilate?? how did we assimilate when california was owned and operated by mexico? if they assimilate the way we assimilated them back then, you are suggesting then that they annihilate us and start a war? the reverse scenario, this time around make pennsylvania part of mexico? yes, i am being facetious. sorry, couldn't help it with the tone of this thread thus far.
civilized assimilation is a process. when i was a kid, the churches were ethnically divided because russians, polish and italians couldn't speak english either. today, via a process, they pray together and now other ethnic groups, recent arrivals, who don't speak english are worshipping in their own languages in their churches. just an example. first generation american born will slowly change all that....provided they are given a chance and opportunity. well, that's my "opinion".
again, if the usa weren't making out on the deal, i assure you they would not be here. you personally may not be making out on the deal, but today's economy is a global one. we can get nostalgic about our youth and all-american apple pie OR we can figure out ways to ease the tensions and speculate about the laws. if we don't like the laws, then we have to change them. so, do you think these attempts are legal in the first place? why or why not? and if so, what precedents would they be setting for your legal rights? i see having to register with the local govt. any time i rent an apartment as a "big brother" issue. but that's what they are trying to put in place for "all" who live in hazelton. my guess is that this one may be going all the way up to the supreme court! | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 17 | |
| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 12:02:47 AM | but today's economy is a global one. we can get nostalgic about our youth and all-American apple pie
I agree. People think we still have drive-in theatres and forget that we
have international trade-agreements/obligations and forget that we are a globalized
society. This isn't 1940's anymore. Business is 24hours 7 days a week.
The only culture that matters is the culture of wealth...we may not find
that nostalgic, but it's true. The Mexicans want a piece of the action...like
me, I don't give a damn about hockey anymore - it's about showing us the money.
We had this argument about "culture" on another thread and nobody
could define it. Culture is dictated by your environment...and
your environment evolves and changes you everyday....you have to
adapt or become extinct. | |
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dmotz
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Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 18 | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 9:37:41 AM | I've met alot of Mexicans in the bay area here who are really great people... even in-laws and close friends.
I don't think any outsiders assimilate cultures easily. We KNOW the reasons people move from their countries of origin and it ain't necessarily for the purpose of assimilating culture.
Ask yourself: If you wanted to move to make a better life for your family to a place like the middle east; would YOU face Medina on your knees five times a day and pray to Allah? Wear a head covering all the time? Stand six inches away from people when you talk because the volume we use in the west sounds like yelling to them?
Of course not.
We need to be tolerant.
Visas, yes...
Learn the language?
Yes. We've tried to make it accessible to every different type of immigrant that comes to the US, but since we can't do it for all; it would be unfair to do it for only afew. We simply don't have the resources.
Responsibility should be incumbent upon the immigrant to learn the common language of the nation in which they live; just as it would be upon us if we were to move to their country. That's one of the biggest burdens on inner-city schools in this country and it's too big of a job.
Many times those schools spend way more than suburban schools with much higher student success rates, and it's not because of vandalism or anything like that. When you have special needs of half the kids in school, the budget goes up like it's bouncing off a diving board... and destroys the educational process for the rest of the kids. This is one area where we should throw in the towel and leave it up to individuals. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 9:44:17 AM |
what a peaceful country the us would be without those criminal immigrants, especially those from cuba...........I applaud the measure.........it should be retroactive to the year 1450.
Yeah, not a bad idea. There would certainly be lots of room for the few remaining Native Americans, once the rest of us leave. Well, a few Vikings could stay, since they came before 1450. Why retroactive to 1450, anyway? That is before the major European conquest of the Americas. That is 42 years before Columbus even arrived to rape, pillage and take slaves from several Carribean islands, after he realized that gold was not so easy to come by. Surely he would be considered an illegal, too, coming from a foreign land, uninvited, only to reek havoc on the local inhabitants. Complete with the innumerable diseases which were endemic in Europe at the time, which were responsible for killing approximately 90% of the Native inhabitants within a few centuries.
I just have to ask all (well, most) of you, what is so wrong with diversity, anyway? Why cannot an immigrant adopt American attitudes and culture, as well as retain their own? Yes, immigrants should learn to speak English, for the purpose of being able to live comfortably in the society, but you must remember that it can be extremely difficult for many people to pick up a language, especially when they are older. And I also don't support illegal immigration, but I still udnerstand why people come to the U.S. (and Canada, and some other countries), and am sympathetic to their reasons. Maybe if it was easier for people to arrive legally, they wouldn't have to come illegally. Fact is, both of our countries, and many other industrialized countries need immigration in order for the population to continue growing, since the birth rate is lower than the death rate. So maybe if we made it more attractive for people to come legally (many do, of course, but we need to make legal immigration more attractive for those who arrive illegally, is what I mean). Let people see that they can still be proud of where they came from. Picking up and leaving your home surely is not an easy decision, and many people do so out of need. They should feel welcomed in a multi-cultural society, where they can be proud of where they have come from, and where they are now. That is one of the many reasons why I am glad to be from Toronto, which is one of the (if not the ) most multicultural cities in the world. Diversity is never a bad thing; it teaches us more about ourselves, more about the world, and helps us to become better, more understanding people. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 9:57:30 AM | | our culture? which one is that? my birth and adopted family is a combination of eastern european, african american, peruvian, scottish, hindu, jewish and baptist ethnicity &/or religion with significant traditional irish, cuban, puerto rican and italian catholic exposure--in the adult years adding the many different protestant ethnic groups and belief systems to my share of the basket. then there are the original indigenous tribes who we call Indian (all with different cultures), the "legal" asian, europoean, eastern european, african, latino american et al cultures and then there are the regional differences and the educational differences and the religious differences --and to shed a little humor, the political differences. we do not have one culture. this thread doesnt' even have one culture. that' s what makes America great! | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 11:28:54 AM |
then there are the original indigenous tribes who we call Indian
To be native American and to called Indian is looked upon as an insult we come not from Indonesia but from the Americas. The Canadians at least give us the respect to call us the First nation. The government of the US doesn't want to call us Native Americans as it makes them be an occupying force. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 3:34:10 PM | yes ten bears, if you didn't get it, that was my point (i said it tongue in cheek). but the fact is that racism is so "institutionalized" here that many of the elderly amongst the various indigenous (native) american tribes also use the word "Indian", adding injury to insult. this is similar to the generational differences in the use of the terms "black" versus "african american". also "oriental" versus asian. even when i adopted my kids, one of them proudly came home to tell me she met a jew boy (i am jewish). i had to explain to her that that was insulting and off went my little african american/peruvian daughter to explain it to her peers of "color" who did not know and adjusted their terminology afterwards. apparently the terminology was widely used and not even meant to be offensive by a number of the children.
furthermore, according to several of the posters here, war faring european invaders should have "assimilated" into the native american tribes--unless of course, some of the proponents of assimilation have double standards?!* as for the recently annointed legal immigrant, what can i say? i am third generation and have watched four generations "evolve". thank goodness. a lot is ignorance and i have witnessed and participated in the merging of cultures that have indeed made this country great. but then again, i didn't live here in the early 1900's when the cultures were first clashing at the time of my grandfather's arrival in nyc. and don't tell me there is no political influence upon immigration politics. just look at the dfferences in treatment of Haitians. others also swum to shore. why were the haitians sent back? and as for those who fled for politcal assylum. anyone here contribute or write letters for amnesty international if that's the line you draw, then go for it. i have no problem with that. i do have a problem with political couch potatoes.
i think with the globalization of the economy and mass influxes and migrations in and out of areas without the time and space to "adjust", there is an increase in hostility. neighborhoods aren't stable. people are moving around too much. not enough time to welcome newcomers. that's one of the reasons i left my last neighborhood. ten years spent trying to organize a sense of community. people in and out, not accustomed to community amongst neighbors. sure they'd all come to dinner and the neighborhood watch as long as i did all the work! here i was grabbed by a neighbor for dinner. it was great and just like being "home" again.
when i lived back east where there was actual racial demarcation of neighborhoods (redlining) which was slowly changing but not fast enough, someone described the south to me. they said the neighborhoods were integrated, but the people were not particularly friendly with one another. their communities were their workplaces, places of worship, etc. many areas of california (especially the silicon valley) are like that. my brooklyn neighborhood was a community when i was a kid. everyone arguing, in and out of each other's houses, different political affilations, each one watching after the other one's children, grandparents who didn't speak the language, different ethnic foods to share. many problems with my being jewish particularly as i came of dating age, but the investment paid off. the kids absorbed, integrated in their adult lives and came back to thank my mother. alas, two of the irish boys married jewish girls and one of them went to CA to work for chavez--an italian boy. if you had listened to their parents you never would have projected these scenarios. but they contributed indirectly by being part of the neighborhood, arguing constanltly, but showing up. and of course, i "wasn't like the others" (an old nyc joke).
we have to all pitch in and help the children. help them learn english. not isolate them so that gangs are their only welcoming society. children pre-university nowadays are expected to know two foreign languages and encouraged to learn a third. and if you don't want to help an immigrant child, FINE. help a child born in america. they too suffer from illiteracy and need help to make it in this new "global" economy. and if you as an adult need the help, go for it as well. it's important and there are libraries offering english and reading skills to adults who have learning disablities or who were too busy working the fields as children to get a decent education.
the government can and will only do so much and they have their pressures from corporate america. this is a grass roots necessity. churches, food banks, masons, soroptimus, republicans, democrats, grumpy people and space cadets....get off your butts! walk your talk!
ps i know this was a long post. i'll shut up for a while. namaste. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 11/2/2006 4:19:54 PM |
The government of the US doesn't want to call us Native Americans as it makes them be an occupying force.
Hey, life is tough. Everybody else's ancestors were either pushed or had to move out of the lands they once lived on also...
All historical evidence we've recovered so far seems to lend credence to the theory that "Native" Americans migrated here from Asia.
I don't feel guilty about living on land where other people once lived or was taken away from someone else. Someone's trying to take MY land away from ME as we speak.
Who?
Those who compete with me in the job market. Bill collectors... anyone I have any outstanding debts with.
I don't have any collective guilt about this.
Life is a struggle. If you want this land, you're going to have to buy it or fight to win it back; just like everyone else. | |
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