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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > If you're meant to be "disappeared," this is how it could happen....      Mod Threads Home login  
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 Author Thread: If you're meant to be "disappeared," this is how it could happen....
 Intercooler

Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 1
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If you're meant to be "disappeared," this is how it could happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:19:59 AM
Let's say you were a known blogger on a variety of public political sites, and had often written hyper critical posts about the administration and it's derelict behavior. Perhaps more demonizing and radical than most, but yet still within the frameworks of decent political discussion. Let's further say one night you're having a frank and heated discussion about terrorism in a public place, say a restaurant. Let's say you were playing devil's advocate and arguing against another person who was a staunch (albeit vapid) supporter of Bu$hCo's new Military Commissions Act. Let's also say some mamby pamby customer who buys into all the Bu$hCo fear-mongering overheard you debating the legality of the Act and the rights of the terrorists being held under this law and/or those at Gitmo. Finally, the person who overheard this conversation makes a call to their local police on their cell phone on the way home saying these two people (you and your friend) were openly discussing terrorism in a restaurant and causing a disturbance. Police arrive thinking there's a disturbance and you and your debating partner are "detained" for questioning, at which point the local FBI or CIA are called in to listen to the interrogation because the subject of terrorism is involved......

Is it really so far fetched to think you could potentially find yourself in a situation like the one below?


By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer
Sat Nov 4, 7:23 AM ET

WASHINGTON - A suspected terrorist who spent years in a secret CIA prison should not be allowed to speak to a civilian attorney, the Bush administration argues, because he could reveal the agency's closely guarded interrogation techniques.

Human rights groups have questioned the CIA's methods for questioning suspects, especially following the passage of a bill last month that authorized the use of harsh — but undefined — interrogation tactics.

In recently filed court documents, the Justice Department said those methods, along with the locations of the CIA's network of prisons, are among the nation's most sensitive secrets. Prisoners who spent time in those prisons should not be allowed to disclose that information, even to a lawyer, the government said.

"Improper disclosure of other operational details, such as interrogation methods, could also enable terrorist organizations and operatives to adapt their training to counter such methods, thereby obstructing the CIA's ability to obtain vital intelligence that could disrupt future planned terrorist attacks," the Justice Department wrote.

The documents, which were first reported by The Washington Post, were filed in opposition to a request that terror suspect Majid Khan should be given access to an attorney. Khan, 26, immigrated from Pakistan and graduated high school in Maryland.

According to documents filed on his behalf by the Center for Constitutional Rights, Khan was arrested in Pakistan in 2003. During more than three years in CIA custody, Khan was subjected to interrogation techniques that defense attorneys suggest amounted to torture.

President Bush acknowledged the existence of the CIA system in September and transferred Khan and 13 other prisoners designated as "terrorist leaders" to the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Under a law passed last month, they are to be tried before special military commissions and may not have access to civilian courts.

The Center for Constitutional Rights is among several advocacy groups challenging that law. They say the Constitution guarantees prisoners a right to challenge their detention.

The Justice Department argues that civilian courts no longer have jurisdiction to intervene in the case. They say keeping details about the CIA program secret is essential because national security is at stake.

"Information obtained through the program has provided the United States with one of the most useful tools in combating terrorist threats to the national security," the government argued in court documents.

"It has shed light on probable targets and likely methods for attacks on the United States, has led to the disruption of terrorist plots against the United States and its allies, and has gathered information that has played a role in the capture and questioning of senior al-Qaida operatives," it said.

Gitanjali S. Gutierrez, an attorney with the Center for Constitutional Rights, responded in court documents Friday that there is no evidence Khan has classified information. Gutierrez accused the administration of using national secrecy concerns to "conceal illegal or embarrassing executive conduct."

U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton has not indicated when he will rule.


Sure, you're not Muslim, you don't have a record of being involved with any kind of terrorist cells, but you WERE talking about terrorism loudly and in a public place.......could it happen? Any chance at all???
 dreamstate123

Joined: 4/30/2006
Msg: 2
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:23:06 AM
In the U.S., anything is possible. I wouldn't even rule it impossible here in Canada in the near future. Some of our politicians seem to have their noses stuck firmly in Bush's arse.

Semms like the modern world will soon be a place where you have to be afraid to say anything for fear of being audibly and visualy monitored, arrested and tortured by a government out of control by the mass populous.
 falldownfunny

Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 3
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:33:05 AM
Bu$hCo? LOL

Let's further say some mamby pamby customer who buys into all the Bu$hCo fear-mongering

Let's say some mamby pamby didn't report something and another 9-11 type disaster happened. Then he would be buying into all the Liberalus-Americanus fear-mongering about every man, woman, and child in America throw into prison and losing all their rights...when in fact it's a security question. Let me guess?...We want to win the war...but only if it's a Democrat that wins it. We would rather lose than let a Republican win it.
 anticon

Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 4
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:43:13 AM
Freedom is about risks. Hitler eliminated the risks and people called him a tyrant.

I wonder why?
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 5
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 8:44:00 AM
I lived in West Germany a few years back ... civilian population (my ex is German). We lived close to the border and had visited it often ... the tightest border in the world back then ... it always scared me. I never ever would walk right up to the border markers.

The East Germans were well known for moving the "border markers" into the East German territory, then when West Germans walked right up to the "border marker", they were technically already in "East" German territory. They'd then capture the offender and sell them back to the appropriate government.

The East Germans were also well known for doing the same of West Germans traveling in the corridor to Berlin. You get off the road at a rest stop to use the bathroom never to return to your car. You simply disappeared until the respective government was notified of your "capture".

I was invited to visit a friend in Berlin. Didn't want to fly, so it would have meant that I would have had to drive the corridor or take the train through East Germany.

Back then, the East Germans were well known for capturing West Germans and selling them back to the government ... it was called "head money" (German translation). I did not venture on that trip to Berlin knowing full well if they had taken me they could have cashed in on me from two governments ... the West German government because I had a residence there and the American government because I am an American citizen.

It's not easy to live under those circumstances ...

It's beginning to feel the same here ... only in this case it's just that all you have to do is say the wrong thing in the wrong place ... BAM you're outta here!!!!!

When I was a child, we used to practice for nuclear war ... hide under our desks at school ... our parents were encouraged to build "bomb shelters". Now, not even a doggone "bomb shelter" can protect us ... just have to learn how to curb your mouth.

So sad ...
 nipoleon

Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 6
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:04:25 AM
To continue speaking about Germany.
About few million Jews in Germany assumed that as long as they were good citizens and followed the law and never did anything wrong they would have nothing to worry about.
It didn't work out that way.
The tyrant gets around to everybody, sooner or later.
Just wait, no matter how good you think you are, they'll get around to you.
 upfromashes

Joined: 9/21/2006
Msg: 7
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:19:51 AM
Hey nipoleon....Look up David Cole...
 upfromashes

Joined: 9/21/2006
Msg: 8
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:24:06 AM
Dreamstate123 if you get a chance check out the Canadian Action Party. They can tell you why the politicians have thier heads up Bush's a***. Bush is just a puppet for the World Bank and the I.M.F. And us as Canadians are slaves to the World Bank as well.
 Intercooler

Joined: 2/18/2006
Msg: 9
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 2:35:30 PM

Bu$hCo? LOL


I'll be happy to explain to you what that means if you don't understand....



Let's say some mamby pamby didn't report something and another 9-11 type disaster happened. Then he would be buying into all the Liberalus-Americanus fear-mongering about every man, woman, and child in America throw into prison and losing all their rights...when in fact it's a security question. Let me guess?...We want to win the war...but only if it's a Democrat that wins it. We would rather lose than let a Republican win it.


Well first, if we're going to be saved from another 9/11 attack because of Joe Schlub overhearing a conversation in a restaurant, then what does that say about Bu$hCo's ability to defend this country anyway? I'll tell you: Not Much. If after spending untold billions of taxpayer dollars to beef up FBI, CIA, NSC, and other spy agencies abilities, plus creating an absurdly large bureaucracy in the form of the TSA and Homeland Security, they have to rely on Joe Schlub to prevent a terrorist attack, I want my tax money back.....

I'm sorry that I don't buy into the fear-based mantra that winning a war against a foreign enemy requires suspension of habeus corpus, mass-wiretapping of all US citizens, systematically condoning torture, and suspending other basic civil liberties via the patriot act. Isn't it amazing how we've been able to survive as a country all this time without such obvious invasions of our rights?

Of course, the above also assumes that the enemy is as massive, organized, and unified as Bu$hCo would like you to believe.......The truth of course, is nothing even remotely similar.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 10
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 2:43:20 PM
Here's a really strange thing about this topic. It's something that I'd never expected to hear in my life, and yet I have - from more than one person.

Sometimes it's done publically, sometimes in private. Sometimes it's serious, and sometimes it's masked in humour.

What is it ?

A warning , to be careful of what I say about American politics.

For someone what grew up with a very positive view of America, and Jeffersonian Democracy, that's a shocker. Even when one now speaks with passion and restraint, it's "dangerous".

That ain't democracy.
 rks58

Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 11
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 2:56:26 PM

A warning , to be careful of what I say about American politics.


If one is destined to become one of the "Desaparecidos", keeping your mouth shut is no protection. The manner in which you conduct your life will give you away unless you are prepared to sacrifice your beliefs and principles.


For someone what grew up with a very positive view of America, and Jeffersonian Democracy, that's a shocker. Even when one now speaks with passion and restraint, it's "dangerous".

That ain't democracy.


So true, reminds me of this:


No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

-Patrick Henry, 1775
 Woodstar

Joined: 2/16/2006
Msg: 12
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 9:59:28 PM
Mind you, I'm not paranoid...but, the last time I found a post similiar to this one it dissappeared...POOF..I believe I said something negative about our dear President and his daddy AND The Boys.

So, keep my mouth shut? Mums the word? Be a good citizen? When it comes down...(I said this back in 1991 to a former United Nations Peace Keeper/soldier retired and I'll say it today)...just shoot me.

 sassymiss

Joined: 5/7/2006
Msg: 13
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:32:53 PM
Since everyone in the world that is on these forums knows by now that I do not care for Band that I think he could have handled things a lot better than he has. I guess I'm doomed. I will tell the truth about him and I will be so glad when we get a new president.
We still have freedom of speech and I am not worrying about it. Keep my mouth shut, I think not as Bush & Co. have done enough damage to our country. We need new blood in the white house. Reguardless of what party wins the election this country needs to get together. Remember..." United we stand, divided we fall". I would say that this country is about as divided as it can get. We need unity! Division can become our downfall.
 e-wok

Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 14
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 10:48:57 PM
A warning , to be careful of what I say about American politics.

I think there will be a Democrat-version of a witch hunt when they come
to power. All those who supported oppression and tyranny on freedom
loving American's will now be the one's who are watched and reported on.
I don't know the charge...SEDITION? Weak, but after 10 years of
legal red-tape you'll be let go.

Mind you, I'm not paranoid...but, the last time I found a post similiar to this one it dissappeared...POOF..I believe I said something negative about our dear President and his daddy AND The Boys.

I doubt it...this is a Canadian web site...we say shit like that about him
every day at breakfast.
 Murlz

Joined: 11/1/2005
Msg: 15
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/4/2006 11:11:58 PM
This is a discussion of the "hypothetical" and "what if" this happens - and "fear mongering" from the left.

People are wrongly accused and jailed routinely for crimes world wide. No system is perfect. I have no fear whatsoever of being shipped of to Gitmo and I discuss this subject often. I have no fear that the ultra liberals I know and hang out with regularily will be arrested or shipped off to Gitmo...nor do they.

The sickening part of this discussion is the utter blindness for the deep seated hatred of the fundamental islamic terrorists who hate us, and routinely indoctorate there followers and more importantly, the youth of the muslim faith in their calling for Jihad against the West in their quest to conquer the world.

People, it is time to wake up. They are using the Liberal media against the America people. They are using the American laws against us. They are being allowed to methodically weaking us by our appreciation for life and liberty.



http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,226482,00.html

We often hear that 9/11 was a wake-up call for Americans. But have Americans really woken up to the truth of how much radical Islamists want us dead, and the lengths to which they are willing to go to fulfill their mission?

According to a shocking new documentary called “Obsession,” the free world is still unprepared to face the unwavering commitment of those who have pledged their lives to our destruction. The film states that we suffer not so much from complacency, but from the naïve disbelief that we remain targets of thousands, perhaps millions of radical Muslims around the world.

The film takes the position that there is no middle ground for radical Islamists -- or Islamic fascists, to use the phrase invoked by President Bush. “Obsession” is filled with fiery speeches, from the Middle East to the streets of London and New York, in which Islamic extremists offer a stark choice for the world: either convert to a Taliban-like form of Islam or face death.

This is not a point for debate or something we can negotiate our way out of.

Of course, the vast majority of the world’s 1.1 billion Muslims, they say, would never personally engage in terrorism. But what of those who do? How do they develop their following and spread their message?

We see in “Obsession” how closely the Hitler youth bear resemblance to the young Islamic fundamentalists training with Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist groups. Of course, Nazi Germany did not train children in the use of suicide belts, as the Islamic fascists do. But manipulating the pliant minds of youth toward fanatical hatred employs the same techniques.

The film contradicts those who say that Muslim extremism is prompted by our actions in the Middle East, pointing out that anti-Western propaganda, school curricula and other indoctrination of Islamic youth has been going on for quite some time. Like Nazi Germany, with whom radical Islamists had a deep affinity before and during World War II, the first step of indoctrination is to dehumanize Jews and Christians by comparing them with pigs and dogs. What we too easily dismiss as infantile stereotypes, particularly regarding the Jews and their supposed domination of America, can sink in if repeated often enough.

Again, the film contends that it’s our own sophistication, and our naïve belief that we’re too likable to be hated, that plays into the enemy’s hand. Muslim extremists often say one thing to the Western media and a very different thing to their own followers. (In one segment, a Muslim condemns 9/11 publicly and then praises the “Magnificent 19” at a 9/11 anniversary “party.”) Our vision is often blinded by our own political correctness, which is used by extremists to their advantage. Instead of focusing on their deceptions and their ultimate intent on our destruction, we obsess on question like “Why do they hate us.”

Unlike our confrontation with Nazi Germany, the current crisis may be worse for two reasons: First, Adolph Hitler, for all his charisma, did not rely on the power of pure religious faith to compel his followers. Islamic fascism is more similar to the fascists in Imperial Japan, who fortified their political positions with the compulsion of a leader who was deemed by loyalists to be a god. Second, this war has no defined national barriers. In fact, the 9/11 hijackers relied on the services and training facilities of the U.S. to become expert in their deadly arts.

Thus, it may well be that today’s fascists are a far greater threat to the free world than the fascists of yesteryear. But there is still time to prevent them from gaining any more ground, if we begin to take the threat more seriously.

As “Obsession” points out, there are many Muslims on whom we can rely for support. Without the support of Muslim leaders to direct the attention of Muslims to the lies and distortions of the Islamic Fascist propagandists, we stand little chance of winning the war against terror without a conflagration on the scale of a world war.

This is a frightening conclusion, but one that “Obsession” concludes we ignore at our own peril. The film begins and ends with a familiar refrain, first coined by the English admirer of the American Revolution, Edmund Burke: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that enough good men do nothing.”
 cougar99

Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 16
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/5/2006 3:56:33 AM
Mutz read my thread heres the link...

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts5746618.aspx

Be sure to read the last quote, and tell me how, this administration is working at keeping us safer, or are they keeping us in living in a shadow of fear.



Definitions of 'obsession' (əb-sĕshən, ŏb-) - 2 definitions - The American Heritage® Dictionary

obsession (n.) Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.


"Stay the course", mission acomplished", cut and run"...
 SOBEIT19

Joined: 10/15/2006
Msg: 17
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/5/2006 7:46:59 AM
Yes, we do live in a dangerous country.. Dangerous if we are not a member of the sheep.. If we speak out, and it does not conform with what our leaders expect of us.. Yep.. dangerous indeed..
 Rareorchid

Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 18
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/5/2006 1:22:41 PM
"In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time, there was no one left to speak up for me."

-Martin Niemoeller, Berlin Lutheran pastor arrested by the Gestapo and sent to Dachau concentration camp in 1938; the Allied forces freed him seven years later.
 falldownfunny

Joined: 9/8/2005
Msg: 19
If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/5/2006 1:43:30 PM
I'll be happy to explain to you what that means if you don't understand....

I'm sure you have an "opinion"...I've probably already heard or read it...most likely on moveon.org or on of those websites. To save you the trouble...I was born and raised on being a Democrat...I already know how bad everything else is but them.
 Paddy O Furniture

Joined: 9/15/2006
Msg: 20
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If you're meant to disappear, this is how it will happen....
Posted: 11/5/2006 2:13:47 PM
Pretty simple from my point of view. I say what I want, when and I don't worry about it because I don't listen to the fear mongering on EITHER side of the aisle.
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