| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 2:18:15 AM | Someone opened a thread for men asking if "women can be abusive ?" ...
The thread became unclear about THE MOST COMMON kind of abuse both sexes experience and suggested myths about abuse,...including that "men usually abuse physically, and women emotionally/verbally",..and that conflict is generally abusive, while often avoidance of conflict and denial of a partners recognition something is wrong is an expression of cyclic abuse patterns.
So, I'm opening this to discuss the MOST COMMON FORMS OF ABUSE: "emotional abuse" and "verbal abuse" .....because one or both are ALWAYS present in abusive relationships and the most consistent, also presenting with the abusive partner's tendency to deny anything is wrong and deny the emotional existence of one's partner as part of that pattern.
Conflict itself is NOT abuse, and persons who are abusive often engage this outlook: they deny thier partner's perceptions (gaslighting) and make a pretense of being "victimized" by a partner seeking to resolve ongoing abuse through discussions and even fights. Arguing is not itself abusive, and it is important to clarify what actually constitutes "an abusive relationship" because this can be insidious and subtle, especially for men and women who are emotionally abused and face a REGULAR PATTERN of the following: denial, invalidation, evasion, mind games, gaslighting, humiliation, withdrawal, and tactics in thier partner which are the most insidious and common aspects of EMOTIONAL ABUSE.
What is EMOTIONAL ABUSE...the most common form of abuse ?
Emotional abuse is when an ONGOING PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR ISSUES FROM a partner, parent, friend, or other intimate associate...that denies the fundamental emotional existence of the other person. This is often done through ignoring and "shaming" that person for thier feelings and normal expressions and needs. This can present with any other following:
neglect/withdrawal/invalidation - ignoring the person with regularity, withdrawal from the person regularly, invalidation -as shaming them for having needs or feelings, invalidating needs, feelings or perceptions, failure or refusal to communicate and interact normally or regularly (a normal degree of interaction expected), avoidance, denial of the person's emotional rights, needs or feelings.
This is termed "abuse" when it becomes a regular pattern of interaction and is the most common kind of abuse in all "abusive relationships". The next kind of abuse is as follows and usually accompanies more aggressive abusive patterns. It is important to emphasise that all "abusive personalities" do the above as A RULE, and may also show a more pro-active pattern of the following:
More aggresive "emotional abuse" or shaming - open consistent teasing and invalidation of a person for thier emotional or physicial needs as "high maintenance", thier personal interests in activities (sports, film, painting, etc.), for thier educational and job status - with a desire to humilate or shame them as unworthy or stupid, for thier looks or weight (unless it is in a serious discussion about health), for thier desire to appear attractive to others and be socially acceptable; as well as a desire to make them jealous (flirting or bringing up other people with a pattern of regularity and malice), seeking to humiliate them with malice and regularity so as to purposefully cause them to feel that they are unworthy of love, respect, affection and acceptance. Hiding from a person our "affairs" and interests in others, and then regularly gaslighting (pretending they are not happening), invalidating thier perceptions something is happening, and even engaging an ensuing pattern of the above while this is happening...is a common syndrome of abuse.
The two basic (passive and pro-active) kinds of abuse above are the most common forms of abuse seen in abusive relationships, and thus, at some point in time, we are all guilty of them in some form for this reason, but only on occassion...not as an ongoing pattern that characterizes our relationship with a person or the opposite sex in general, and when that abuse regularly takes place as unwarranted and unprovoked (vs. things sometimes said in the heat of anger by all). "Unprovoked" and "pattern" -- are key. We usually do these things on occassion because we are insecure or directly under somekind of like attack, though paranoia of such may accompany drug use and some forms of phsychiatric illness.
Persons who present a pattern of the above two categories of abuse so much that it characterizes thier relationship to the opposite sex and it occurs regularly without provocation, are "abusive personalities".
The 'aggressiveness' seen in abusive personalities is also key. Often - REGULARLY with little or no provocation, then will seek to initiate a program of undermining the basic self esteem of thier partner and persist in activity that is passive and aggressive to demonstrate that they do not regard thier partner with a fundamental outlook of respect and valuation as a person.
They consistently also show a "short fuse", are quick to be rude and outrageous with little provocation toward thier partner as a pattern, saying hurtful things out of the blue. This attitude may worsen during periods of alchohol and substance abuse, or when the person has a mood disorder such as depression or bi-polar manic depression.
Whether they are simply speaking these things, ranting and raving, or yell at thier partner as a form of "dressing down" (done in the Marines and commonly seen films such as Forrest Gump), is not the issue -- as much as what they say. They may regularly speak to thier partner this way, or rant and rave, or yell, but the message is the same - you are not worthy and you don't matter.
I was in a relationship with a partner I met in POF that was characterized by this. I will add that if when your partner does these things you find yourself feeling the following, you are advised by NIH and US Dept. of Health and Human Services physicians, to seek help and try to end the relationship>
You often feel shocked, stunned or speechless when these things happen.
You find yourself staring off into space (post traumatic stress) and losing sleep or weight.
You begin obsessing about what you can do to change things though it is not your fault.
You feel depressed, distracted and fearful when interacting with the partner.
If these "red flags" arise quickly in your interaction with a person and the partner has poor or little relationship history - no long term relationships/co-habitation/or marriage by a late age, they may have a serious psychiatric or emotional disorder that you are not likely to change. Sometimes, seeking help early in a relationship is not the answer, such as counseling, because in this case, it is best not to enter the life of someone far gone and feel as if you need to help them - change. Save that for relationships that are well established and show a healthy prior period of happy interaction - at least a year or two. | |
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| The Most COMMON
Posted: 11/11/2006 2:23:41 AM | This OP just has to be one of the most unfortunate people in the world when it comes to bad or terrible relationships with men. Every thread posted is about how someone is done wrong by the opposite gender, most commonly how men are "bad" people.
If someone shows signs of instability or exhibits traits/actions you don't find attractive or troublesome you owe it to yourself to end the relationship-----that's agreed upon, no question. "Seeking help" if its only a dating or causal situation I don't think professional assistance is needed----or did I miss something? | |
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| The Most COMMON
Posted: 11/11/2006 2:34:17 AM | No one should "seek help" if the relationship is brand new. They should get out, but unfortunately some people think that counseling is the answer in even new scenarios. I've had great long term relationships, but those not great, it was usually evident early on in the form of "red flags" that we all commonly know we see, yet ignore.
They should not arise early in a relationship. As for the poster above, that is itself a wonderfully patronizing and insecure statement, since I am a regular board member and post in the music section, religion section, and am all over the board actually on a regular basis. I don't know what your personal concern is with my posts as a troll, but perhaps you are bitter about a woman ? Why follow me ? This is an example of how transference can affect anger toward women one does not know. This happens with both sexes in the board at times. Oh, well. This is my response to the 20/20 Show last night about abusive dating - which profiled a situation where a young man stabbed his new girlfriend and had also shown a previous pattern with another girlfriend.
The show highlighted "emotional abuse" as the most common form of abuse - and also predating or existing without physical abuse. It is the most common kind. | |
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| The Most COMMON
Posted: 11/11/2006 3:52:01 AM | This post was a very interesting read. I see it as quite fair. It's not gender-specific at all IMHO. I don't see her adding gender until her own personal account of experience.
Thanks BTW khrock, I really needed to read a couple of things in here especially. A sort of validation for something I just experienced on POF.
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 4:17:42 AM | I'd say taxes are the most common abuse that both men and women suffer. Maybe some of our leaders would be up there too. But yeah, Tax is pretty much the biggest abuse we both get hit with! hahahaha,...
Ooooooops sorry,... you um,...were being serious. Sometimes the little Viking in me gets out!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread! No animals were harmed during the making of this announcement!
- Erik - hehehehe,... | |
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kame
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Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 6 | |
| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 4:30:56 AM | | Yeah ..I dont think counseling is going to help someone who is emotional or verbally abusive .I think thats inbred in someone and its just the type of person they are..theres no way Id stay in a relationship like that.Lifes too short to be walking on egg shell's | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 5:16:29 AM | | The most common is subtle, and often unspoken, but it makes one person in the relationship very uncomfortable. Abuse is hidden behind euphemisms, and comments are made behind innuendo. Passive-aggressive abuse, is the term I think fits well. | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 6:39:31 AM | OP, thank you for posting this. I dated someone briefly a few years back who showed the below behavior. When I would call him on it he would try and turn it around on me and tell me I don't understand him and that I was volatile.
"neglect/withdrawal/invalidation - ignoring the person with regularity, withdrawal from the person regularly, invalidation -as shaming them for having needs or feelings, invalidating needs, feelings or perceptions, failure or refusal to communicate and interact normally or regularly (a normal degree of interaction expected), avoidance, denial of the person's emotional rights, needs or feelings."
"Conflict itself is NOT abuse, and persons who are abusive often engage this outlook: they deny thier partner's perceptions (gaslighting) and make a pretense of being "victimized" by a partner seeking to resolve ongoing abuse through discussions and even fights."
He would also engage in the above outlook. It was always me, he would quickly become very argumentative when I would stand up for myself and then tell me I needed counseling. In the past few years we have spoken a few times, rarely with a good outcome. I struggled to understand this relationship for a very long time and then finally one night he and I were emailing back and forth and he started his "gaslighting" and I sat at my computer and just asked myself, "what are you doing?" I quickley disengaged, which I think threw him for a loop and he told me I never gave him a chance. When the truth was I gave him far too many chances. I tend to be very sensative by nature and at times too sensative, so I keep that in mind when dealing with "difficult" people. However, this man was just a bully and I am just happy that I finally realized that it had nothing to do with me but everything to do with him.
Thanks again. | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 6:48:07 AM | Try this collection, of definitions of battered wives, from the Darebin Community Centre in Northcote.
• Do you feel like you are walking on eggshells?
• Are you told what to do, when to do it, what to wear?
• Do you have to account for your time?
• Are you forced to have sex when you don't want to?
• Are you made to feel scared?
• Are you hit, kicked or pushed around? Do you have things thrown at, or near you?
• Are you cut off from family and friends?
• Is your partner possessive or jealous?
• Does your partner control you and the money?
Typical examples of wife abuse? Think again.
- The average husband DOES feel as if he’s walking on eggshells every time his bowels fail suddenly, and he makes a hasty dash from the garden to the toilet with anything on his boots. (If a wife threw up in his car, with a touch of morning sickness, and he yelled at her, it would certainly be listed as abuse.)
- The average husband is told what to do by his wife absolutely all the time. Including how to do things that she has no knowledge of.
Something goes wrong and the average wife is promptly screaming at her husband “DO SOMETHING” That’s domestic violence! That’s husband bashing!
(A great many wives still take some sort of sick pride in this form of husband bashing frequently bragging to the girlfriends about how helpless her husband would be if she wasn’t there to tell him what to do. I know I’m gettting confrontational now but how many times have you heard these control freaks, actually boasting about the way that they abuse their husbands in this manner without actually taking the issue to your department?)
- The average husband does have to account for his time. Each and every time he works back late. He’s routinely accused of infidelity even though he’s got the overtime money to prove otherwise. The real truth is that the workplace often feels more like a home than his home. Particularly if home means “walking on eggshells” all the time.
- The average husband is hit, kicked, and pushed around. The shelters and the law list every angry shove, by a short tempered husband, as wife bashing. Ask around your own office. Do you have a single female staff member who as NEVER, given her man an impatient shove? Including you!
- The average husband is very much cut off from family and friends. Her family is welcome in the home, his are not. His friends are usually his workmates and they are not welcomed into the home.
The Darebin Community Centre has got one thing right. All of these forms of abuse are still abuse. Blood doesn’t need to flow before abuse occurs.
But all of these forms of abuse are considered the normal way to treat a husband.
A man, even talking back, or expressing his own opinions, is rapidly being listed as a wife basher these days. A wife, continually hurling, both abuse, and kitchen knives, at a husband is rarely listed as a husband basher. Not even when the man is dragged into hospital with a gushing jugular vein. A woman has to actually kill her husband, or her bash victims have to be children before she is charged
The final reason husbands no not come forward is that, even if the battered husbands do actually seek help, there is almost nowhere for them to seek help. | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 6:59:01 AM | Sparticuss, you are right. Husband abuse is far more common than people think. I have a friend who is going through a divorce right now, she is somewhat abusive by nature. She starting telling me one night that she starting hitting her husband, it sickened me. I told her she was wrong and that is domestic violence and don't be surprised if he charges her with battery, she got very upset with me.
The last man I was involved with was separated and he was a huge guy 6'4, built like a line backer. He told me that his ex-wife had also physically attacked him, I was shocked.
The truth is this, no matter what kind of abuse we are talking about, physical, verbal or mental, it is wrong and it is not gender specific. Growing up with a very abusive mother (verbal, mental and physical), I can attest to this. No one (men or women) should put up with any kind of abuse and if you find yourself in that situation you need to get out, quickly. | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 7:08:47 AM | The last man I was involved with was separated and he was a huge guy 6'4, built like a line backer. He told me that his ex-wife had also physically attacked him, I was shocked.
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Were you??? Think back to the last man you really loved. Think about that love at it's most intense.
Now you know why your line backer never hit back. He loved her too much to hit back. This is what makes domestic abuse the most repugnant form of abuse in the world (including rape) In most of the others physical strenght is abused. In domestic abuse it's something as precious as love that is being abused. Size and strenght is irelevant.
English feminist Erin Pizzey has covered the topic well in her book "Working with Violent Women" | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 7:30:43 AM | For clarity, I was shocked because she attacked him. I was not shocked that he did not strike back, although he loved her, he would never strike back, he was not an abusive person by nature. Abusive behavior was not something that would even occur to him, just not in his make up.
He was the last man I really loved and my heart just wept when he told me that, it also took me back to a time where I was the victim of physical abuse, not a good place to remember. Abuse is wrong and no one should have to endure it. The interesting thing about people who abuse is that normally they themselves have been abused and they continue the cycle. Or you have people like myself, who has suffered abuse and the thought of abusing someone sickens me. I know one of the reasons I turned out as I did (very sensative, sticking up for those weaker than me and very little tolerance for abusive and argumentative people) stems from the abuse I have endured in my life. I consider myself fortunate to be able to take those unfortunate incidents in my life as lesson on "how NOT to behave" instead of using them as excuses to continue a dangerous and destructive cycle. I thank God everyday for giving me the strength to overcome the things that have happened in my life and NOT play the victim. | |
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ya472
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Joined: 4/29/2006
Msg: 14 | |
| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 7:42:42 AM | Msg #13
For clarity, I was shocked because she attacked him. I was not shocked that he did not strike back
Exactly the reasons why ABUSE exists. One person does not FEAR the consequences of their actions, or they redirect their FEARS by abusing someone with less power.
Some people do not RESPECT others. RESPECT is a trait that is learned through teachings of responsibility and consequences. The underlying instinct is FEAR !
FEAR, if one does not take out the garbage.
FEAR, to lose the love of someone important.
FEAR, if one does not pay their taxes.
FEAR, if one is not submissive to a dominant authority.
FEAR of loss, pain, rejection, seclusion, hunger, etc................................
Some people medicate their fears with addiction, and some people use negative behavior, such as ABUSE to redirect their fear.
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| Great THREAD!
Posted: 11/11/2006 7:48:47 AM | Great thread, and I agree with most of the posts, including the one about taxes hehe.
But I must add that in addition to having divorced an abuser out of my life, as a divorce lawyer I have seen clients undergo all kinds of abuse on many levels. This includes abuse in the form or neglect, too, for a failure to meet a need in a relationship shows that the relationship is not really a healthy one but just one-sided. A healthy interdependence is reflected in a good relationship, as opposed to an unhealthy co-dependence.
Abuse by the one or both sides can include emotional, mental, financial, physical, sexual, social, and even spriritual, by denegrating one's fath life ("Oh, you're so stuck in your Lutheranism!"). Consider memory abuse--"I never said that...."
I could add another-legal abuse, in the form of over-trial of the issues as well as threats to "raise the nonexistant to force the proof of the negative". For example, the X says you were beating her and the children on a certain date, so now try and prove the negative! But where are your witnesses when you were off fishing by yourself? It's a good reason to always have a few fishing buddies hehehe! But proving something didn't happen is more expensive than lying and claiming it did. Fortunately, most of the judges recognize that 75% or more of abuse allegations are false, and can see through the demeanor of the witnesses (that's why the bench is placed in clear view of the witnesses' body language).
But keep your sense of humor! On some occasions my X would drift into one of her bi-polar episodes and would dump the pepper into the food (maybe the disorder affected her sense of taste). To me the food was unpaletable, so I had to go find something to eat. But upon my return, she would accuse me of infidelity. Her accusations came in the form of pulling the breakers to the lights and placing obstacles on my pathway for me to trip over and get hurt on. Now I know you naysayers can theorize that unless she actually admitted she wanted me to trip and get hurt we'll never know for sure if that was her intent, but you get the idea. I learned quickly that I didn't need counselling, I needed a divorce! hehehe
Thanks for all the great reading, and remember to have some fun with it! | |
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| FEAR NOT!
Posted: 11/11/2006 7:51:57 AM | It is better to risk a life in exile than to live a live in fear. Only if you risk failure can you seize an opportunity for success! | |
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| FEAR NOT!
Posted: 11/11/2006 8:23:54 AM | | The "brainwashing" is a major type of abuse. My best friend has a very poor self image because of what her ex kept telling her. This woman is a very beautiful person, inside and out. She walks into a room and all the men turn and look. Yet she feels that she is fat and ugly because that is what her ex kept telling her. And yes, she was too scared to get out of the relationship because something was better than being alone. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 18 | |
| FEAR NOT!
Posted: 11/11/2006 8:29:00 AM | | One of the most effective and cleverest ones is to make the other one to feel him/herself guilty. | |
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| FEAR NOT!
Posted: 11/11/2006 9:26:09 AM | "neglect/withdrawal/invalidation - ignoring the person with regularity, withdrawal from the person regularly, invalidation -as shaming them for having needs or feelings, invalidating needs, feelings or perceptions, failure or refusal to communicate and interact normally or regularly (a normal degree of interaction expected), avoidance, denial of the person's emotional rights, needs or feelings."
My longest relationship lasted nearly 5 years and resulted in a child and a company. The two and a half years after my son was born, my ex displayed all of the above forms of abuse. Looking back, however, I can now see that there were traces of it long before then.
Even now, while he is dating someone else, he reminds me that I "didn't give him anything in return." Apparently, he gave his all to our relationship, while I gave absolutely nothing. Hell -- I'm the one who moved overseas; I'm the one who gave up my family, friends, and life for him. He even dares to say that I'm the reason he doesn't call his son often anymore.
The thing is, I think he actually believes his bullsh*t.
Excellent thread, OP. | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 1:02:48 PM | … often avoidance of conflict and denial of a partners recognition something is wrong is an expression of cyclic abuse patterns.
Emotional abuse is when an ONGOING PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR ISSUES FROM a partner, parent, friend, or other intimate associate...that denies the fundamental emotional existence of the other person. This is often done through ignoring and "shaming" that person for their feelings and normal expressions and needs. This can present with any other following:
neglect/withdrawal/invalidation - ignoring the person with regularity, withdrawal from the person regularly, invalidation -as shaming them for having needs or feelings, invalidating needs, feelings or perceptions, failure or refusal to communicate and interact normally or regularly (a normal degree of interaction expected), avoidance, denial of the person's emotional rights, needs or feelings.
My situation was more irregular. He is inconsistent with his behavior and affection. I never knew whether I’d get called nosey, or end up having a conversation, when I asked, “How was your day?” And, when I tried to bring up how I felt rejected, or my feelings were hurt by his actions, he would clam up and get defensive and start attacking me. He always said I was so critical. But, all I wanted is some trust and respect. And, how am I supposed to communicate that to him without telling him what brought on these feelings? Of course, he feels they shouldn’t be discussed at all.
Hiding from a person our "affairs" and interests in others, and then regularly gaslighting (pretending they are not happening), invalidating their perceptions something is happening, and even engaging an ensuing pattern of the above while this is happening...is a common syndrome of abuse.
My ex finally admitted to me that he had been in contact with several of his ex-girlfriends throughout our entire relationship (I had to call him on it and he had to fess up because he knew he was caught lying), and he never told me (even though I’ve asked in the past…and either gotten called nosey for that or lied to with a straight face) because he knew I’d get upset. So, this whole time I was wondering why he never wanted to open up to me and be my friend. I realize now he didn’t need to be my friend when he had so many others who were there for him.
They consistently also show a "short fuse", are quick to be rude and outrageous with little provocation toward their partner as a pattern, saying hurtful things out of the blue. This attitude may worsen during periods of alcohol and substance abuse, or when the person has a mood disorder such as depression or bi-polar manic depression.
And, here I am apologizing and asking for another chance to be less needy and not giving him his space. Go figure.
I was in a relationship with a partner I met in POF that was characterized by this. I will add that if when your partner does these things you find yourself feeling the following, you are advised by NIH and US Dept. of Health and Human Services physicians, to seek help and try to end the relationship>
You often feel shocked, stunned or speechless when these things happen.
You find yourself staring off into space (post traumatic stress) and losing sleep or weight.
You begin obsessing about what you can do to change things though it is not your fault.
You feel depressed, distracted and fearful when interacting with the partner.
Ditto…
No one should "seek help" if the relationship is brand new. They should get out, but unfortunately some people think that counseling is the answer in even new scenarios. I've had great long term relationships, but those not great, it was usually evident early on in the form of "red flags" that we all commonly know we see, yet ignore.
Of course, I started to seek counseling because he had me believing it was my fault. We went for awhile, but then he decided he ended it (I’m suspecting he [virtually] met someone else, as he does have an obsession with secret agendas and the internet.) He never took any blame for any of it. So I did.
Consider memory abuse--"I never said that...."
Ugh! This frustrated me so often! He’d pull that on me too frequently! And, how do you argue that? You can’t, so discussion over. I never thought about it like that, but it’s starting to make sense!
Even now, while he is dating someone else, he reminds me that I "didn't give him anything in return." Apparently, he gave his all to our relationship, while I gave absolutely nothing. Hell -- I'm the one who moved overseas; I'm the one who gave up my family, friends, and life for him. He even dares to say that I'm the reason he doesn't call his son often anymore.
The thing is, I think he actually believes his bullsh*t.
I got the same thing. He gave his all. But, how can you give your all when you’re emotionally unfaithful, and living a lie, the entire time?
And, like you, I’m the one who moved half way across the country to be with him. I had nothing, and no one: no friends, no car, no job, I didn’t know where to go or how to get there, etc. It took me a while to buy a car and find a job. And, I was so desperate to build up my self esteem (since he wasn’t helping me with it…telling me I should wear jeans to hang out at home because sweats were inappropriate, and pointing out that I walk funny or I tilt my head funny, or not giving emotional support when I needed it.) that I was shopping for houses…just so I can achieve a personal goal I had set for myself. And, he had me thinking that we would live in this house together. Meanwhile, as it turns out, he never had any intentions of doing such a thing. He knew before I even moved here that it wouldn’t work out. Isn’t that nice?
To OP: great thread!
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 1:11:14 PM | Abusive people live in fear , the fear leads to insecurity , the insecurity leads to a need for control , The need for control leads to manipulation , the manipluation leads to abuse.
The problem with most of this pshycologically is that this behaviour is usually learned behaviour and learned behaviour is the hardest thing to change.
I would have to think that most common abuse in an average relationship , one that wouldn't be so easily noticed is the use of guilt. | |
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| The Most COMMON abuse men and women experience
Posted: 11/11/2006 1:53:08 PM | If I may venture this idea that most relationships have problems because of personality disorders?
My wife has told me she doesnt love me anymore then said she doesnt need any man in her life, there is no one else then 2 years later i find out she has had 2 online affairs, had shit loads of money in her account while our joint account was empty. She spent 1700 pounds on communications, net, phone and mobile while the mortgage was 3 months overdue. She thinks that as a single mum she can pay the mortgage and the 900 pounds owed my mother just fine?
the reality bus has just passed and she wasnt on it. Denial is her best suit along with the ability to blame me for the marriage break up?
So shes acting like a 12 year old and I am not allowed to take any action, god bless the UK sheesh!! | |
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