| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 8:54:59 AM | As someone that takes a great interest in Dutchies, I came across this story today. The Netherlands has to be one of the most liberal countries that I am aware of, and they are about to go to the polls in a national election in a few days.
The Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa in public places.
The burqa, a full body covering that also obscures the face, would be banned by law in the street, and in trains, schools, buses and the law courts.
The cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.
Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk is known for her tough policies, and has clashed with past coalition partners.
Late last year she said the government would look into a ban after a majority in the Dutch parliament said they were in favour.
An estimated 5% of people living in the Netherlands are Muslims.
But there are just a few dozen women in the Netherlands who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.
Critics of the proposed ban say it would violate civil rights.
The country's relationship with its Islamic community has been under scrutiny since the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh by Islamic extremists in November 2004.
The decision by the centre-right government comes days ahead of an election in which questions of immigration and nationality are likely to play a key role.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6159046.stm
After doing some research, and thinking about this topic a bit, I've come to think it's a good idea. Burqas are not required by Islam, they are a tribal tradition.
The country’s hardline Integration Minister, Rita Verdonk, known as the Iron Lady for her series of tough anti-immigration measures, told Parliament that she was going to investigate where and when the burka should be banned. The burka, traditional clothing in some Islamic societies, covers a woman’s face and body, leaving only a strip of gauze for the eyes.
Mrs Verdonk gave warning that the “time of cosy tea-drinking” with Muslim groups had passed and that natives and immigrants should have the courage to be critical of each other. She recently cancelled a meeting with Muslim leaders who refused to shake her hand because she was a woman.
The proposals are likely to win the support of Parliament because of the expected backing by right-wing parties. But they have caused outrage among Muslim and human rights groups, who say that the Government is pandering to the far Right.
Mrs Verdonk admitted that a complete ban on the garment would be legally tricky because of freedom of religion legislation. However, she said that she would prohibit the garments “in specific situations” on grounds of public safety. The ban is likely to be enforced in shops, public buildings, cinemas, train and bus stations and airports, as well as on trains and buses.
The Netherlands has become preoccupied by Islamic terrorism after the investigation into the murder of the film-maker Theo van Gogh uncovered a network of Muslim extremists dedicated to destroying the country. Attention has turned to the burka because police authorities have become concerned that a terrorist could use one for concealment.
A government spokesman said: “We want to investigate when, how, in which places the burka should be banned. It is a safety measure — you don’t see who is in it.” The Government cites as a precedent existing football legislation, which bans people from entering football grounds covering their faces in scarves.
Yassim Hertog, a vice-president of the Muslim School Boards Union, said: “Can you prohibit someone from wearing a certain type of dress? They are trying to test what a government can forbid, and how far you can go trampling on people’s rights. They want to show all these Dutch citizens who are sick and tired of all these ‘mutant’ citizens, this is where we draw the line — get normal.”
Muslim groups insist that only a few dozen women in the Netherlands wear the burka, and that the ban is a distraction. The Muslims and Government Contact Body said: “Only a handful of Muslims actually wear burkas. Let us focus our energy on what we have in common. This is not a big problem.”
Last year two Muslim women lost a court case against their college that had banned them from wearing burkas during their social work and childcare course. The judge backed the college in its claim that children had to be able to see who was caring for them, prompting the women to drop the course.
Famile Arslan, the women’s lawyer, told The Times:
“Women have a very strong opinion about the burka. If you ban it they won’t leave the house. It is not a good way to integrate and emancipate Muslim women. Everything Muslims do is criticised by Verdonk. She is doing it to get votes. She doesn’t care about Muslims and their problems.”
Mrs Verdonk made the proposals after Geert Wilders, the right-wing MP, requested the ban. Mr Wilders claimed that the garment was unfriendly towards women and a threat to security.
Baroness Sarah Ludford MEP, on the European Parliament’s Civil Liberties Committee, who has been active in opposing bans on the hijab, or scarf, said that there were no arguments for banning the burka. “If there is a genuine belief that someone under a burka is a terrorist, then you invoke stop-and-search laws on the grounds of reasonable suspicion.”
The Netherlands would become the first European country to ban the wearing of the burka in public situations, although there are already some local bans. Last year several Belgian towns, including Antwerp and Ghent, banned the wearing of the burka in public, and recently started issuing £100 spot fines for breaking the municipal ordinance. Several towns in Italy, including Como, have invoked legislation introduced by Mussolini that bans hiding one’s face in public to impose fines on burka-wearers. France and several regions of Germany have followed Turkey and Tunisia in banning the wearing of the hijab, which leaves the face visible, in public buildings, most controversially in schools.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1823334,00.html
While I am less supportive of the ban on hijabs, I think this Dutch decision may be in fact the only right way to deal with this. If immigrants want to live in a country, they must accept certain minimum sacrifices that go along with life in this new society. While societies should tolerate (and encourage) religious freedom, they also must draw certain lines when it comes to public safety and other factors.
I've heard of some female university students in Montreal taking exams wearing burqas, which leads me to wonder what way anyone has of knowing WHO is actually taking an exam. RIght now, as I understand it, all they have to do is present a valid university ID - with no way of knowing who is carrying it.
There is also the issue of being able to see properly, since the burqa restricts vision through a narrow lace slit. If we allow burquas on the street, do we also allow them while driving a car ? That case ( I think in Florida) of a woman who wanted to take her driver's license phot wearing one is another example of the type of problems faced with such a manner of dress.
Allowing people to walk around fully covered, especially in light of the small numbers of people involved, goes against a basic principle in our society. Should we allow one group to do that, we must then allow others. Do we then arrest demonstrators with covered faces ?
So, let's open up the topic for discussion. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 9:41:29 AM | well coming from london......which has a one of the highest muslim poulations in the western world i am in two minds about the decision ...... i agree that all public srevants such as hospital staff, teachers, police and so on should be made to follow this rule but i think it's not great for say just walking down the street or the every day muslim woman..... i love london, i love seeing a guy with an afro one second, a white bald guy the next and a muslim in a burka the next......i'm not sure what action should be taken...it's a fine line and i think we must all think together a to decide as to how we can all work together to resolve the problem....i would suggest a common and moral and human value we all unite to.... all i can say is that it's hard and what ever action the netherlands choses to take it must be very well evaluated!!!!!!!! | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 9:54:37 AM | Do we ever make laws that will satisfy everyone?
Speed limits = Some drivers really can handle the faster speeds safely, others cannot, while still others can't handle speedy drivers dodging in and out of traffic. So it's just all around safer for everyone to follow the set speed limits ... right?
If immigrants want to live in a country, they must accept certain minimum sacrifices that go along with life in this new society. I was born and raised in a big city in Ohio. I eventually married a German man and we lived in a rural town (his hometown) in Germany for 10 years. While I was not an "immigrant", I did have to adjust to their way of life.
Two reasons (examples) = 1) His family was very high-profile there and there were certain expectations that went with that status. It would have been an embarrassment to his family if I did not restrain myself from certain habits I had developed while growing up in the "big" city. No wearing a bathing suit out in the yard to work in the garden or mow the lawn ... don't care if it is 100 degrees or not, just not acceptable. Swimming suits are only worn in a swimming pool.
2) It was a small town and just walking down the main street there set peoples' tongues in motion. I was the only American resident in that town. I represented (to them) every American. I was accutely aware that my behavior was (in their minds) the behavior of "all" Americans and I was determined to be a good example to those people of what and how Americans behave in foreign countries. I did not want to be a spectacle. I wanted their respect and their trust and I got it.
After a couple of years, I was just one of them. They did eventually open up and tell me that I do not act like many of the "Americans" who occasionally visit that town. There was an American military base not far away and a disco in that town that the military personnel used to be allowed to visit. They finally had to ban all of the American military personnel from there ... as a result of their "bad" behavior. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 12:56:38 PM | | As a person with dutch heritage, I am embarassed. If the cdn gov't told me i couldnt wear a scarf that covered my face I would think that my rights had been violated. Especially when it gets -30 degrees c. some days in winter. I believe that it gets pretty cold in holland too..i remember it gets very windy. How would this ban ever be enforcible??? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 1:55:24 PM | | as a "dutchie" i find it an unfortunate reaction to what is however a growing problem. islamic immigrants, many from indonesia are causing many in Nederland to feel that they are losing their own culture. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 3:48:02 PM | | maybe holland would be the first country to ban masturbation.....after being the first country to successfully ban the burka.....and all of a sudden, people of holland would have to travel to neighbouring countries to masturbate, get back on the train and make it home just in time for the news at 11:00pm. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 3:50:30 PM |
as a "dutchie" i find it an unfortunate reaction to what is however a growing problem. islamic immigrants, many from indonesia are causing many in Nederland to feel that they are losing their own culture.
do you remember the countries that lost their cultures because they were colonised by holland? it's payback time. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 4:15:09 PM | | While i do feel there should be restrictions on wearing burqas for driving and other safety reasons, i don`t feel women should not be allowed to wear them in public. What is more dangerous? A women walking down a busy street in a burqa or a women wearing a miniskirt? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 6:01:43 PM | to message #8:
And Indonesia is one of those countries that deserves the right to give "payback". ONly their methods are very passive compared to how the Dutch took over other cultures. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 6:21:01 PM | Msg 9
But is it a woman or a man with 10kgs of high explosive strapped to him and a desire to be a martyr??? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 9:27:32 PM | what a load of sanctimonious claptrap. i now await for several of those posts to contact me when they have handed over deeds and titles of property they own to the nearest native band office. to suggest this is payback to european colonialism of the 16th-19th century is plainly bogus bull sh1t. step up to the plate, give up your property, your rights and priviledges accorded under english comman law to aboriginals. until then you have no grounds to make those comments. i will now await your upcoming psuedo-intellectual replies which will invariably attack the messenger, not the message. bah | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 13 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/17/2006 10:13:43 PM | attack the messenger, not the message.
Isn't this an apt description of a - tu quoque ad hominum attack - ? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 11:38:55 AM | What a load of bollocks, politically correct claptrap. The only times it is justifiable to cover ones face while in public is to afford it some protection to the elements or other such injury. Other occasions would include when someone is up to no good or has reasons not to be recognised. Its sole purpose was always to deflect the unwarranted attentions of rival males in more primitive societies. It does not empower women in any way but gives her the status of a sack. Personally it gives me a woody but then so does a rubber gas mask. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 12:26:14 PM | late- you lost me there. must have slept through latin 101. to others- the point of my original response was that the dutch mainstream RELUCTANTLY opposed the wearing of the burqa. Holland, like other western european nations have seen a increase in militant islamic activities. murders and other acts of violence in the name of islam is causing kneejerk reactions in what was a fairly tolerant society. why is it as western nations we are expected to go over and above to allow new arrivals to feel accepted when that position is certainly not returned in kind. | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 16 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 12:53:45 PM |
late- you lost me there. must have slept through latin 101.
It's a form of logical fallacy you employed (ad hominem "tu quoque") while then admonishing others not to commit the same type fallacy (ad hominem "circumstantial")....
Fallacies are always the last resort (first for many), of those who don't understand dialectic discussion, logic, or critical thinking.
Holland, like other western european nations have seen a increase in militant islamic activities. murders and other acts of violence in the name of islam is causing kneejerk reactions in what was a fairly tolerant society.
How many have been murdered in the west by women in burqas?
Just so we're keeping track of the reasoning behind the sense of entitlement.
why is it as western nations we are expected to go over and above to allow new arrivals to feel accepted when that position is certainly not returned in kind.
Well, when the west goes into countries where there are Muslims lately, they tend to die by the hundreds of thousands.
How many have the Burqa Brigade killed in Holland? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 3:01:06 PM | In democracy there is an important concept of collective rights being of some value. As I said, burquas are not Islamic custom - they are tribal in their origin. Do we also allow the clitoral mutilation of young females , another tribal custom ?
Although Islam may allow men to have more than one wife, Islamic males cannot observe that aspect of Islam in Western democratic societies. In a sense, this is discrimination. It is allowed to exist because to accept those values would be to set up two classes of citizens. If that happens, democracy starts to travel on a rather rocky road.
Islamic men could have multiple wives, and others could not. It's the same rational that's used in cases of Christians (like traditional Mormons) that try to make the same argument. It cannot be allowed to exist, because it creates more problems than it solves.
The attempt at Sharia law was the same type of disaster in the making. One cannot have two sets of laws in the same society, and expect it to work.
If we allow burquas in our Western societies, we set up exactly the same type of situation. If a policeman stops a woman wearing a burqua for jaywalking (to give one example) , does he have to take her word that she's the same person in her ID ? As I said above, can she drive a car wearing one, with it's limited vision ? Does that same woman have the right to have her picture taken wearing her burqua FOR her ID in the same "religious freedom" ? In that case, you may as well forget about ID as anything having any value.
If one wants to observe such tribal customs, then one should return to the countries where it is practiced. In a country like Canada we have a long tradition of accepting many cultures, and that is one of our greatest strengths, in my opinion. As I've shown above, that doesn't mean we have to accept those things that are against our basic cultural values.
One has to look at how many women there are in the world, and how many of them wear burquas, to prove that even in Islamic counties/states they are not common. That to me is the only proof needed to invalidate their existence in Western society. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 3:05:02 PM | | late-i stand admonished. tis easy to fall into that trap. to put it simply don't throw mud, tends to stick to you. on the burqa issue, i don't think the threating feeling is caused by the women but by the increasingly militant stance of islamics in holland. and yes, prominent people have been murdered in holland as well as other acts of violence | |
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grog27
| Joined: 2/25/2005 Msg: 19 | |
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Sigi
| Joined: 5/26/2005 Msg: 20 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 6:25:43 PM |
i agree that all public servants such as hospital staff, teachers, police and so on should be made to follow this rule but i think it's not great for say just walking down the street or the every day muslim woman...
^^ As a Dutchie myself...I tend to agree with seu-again.
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 6:50:19 PM | I am not so sure that the Burqa necessarily needs to be banned as public dress.
There certainly is a case to be made in situations where empathy and non-verbal communication are critical, such as teaching, child-care, nursing. How many have been in a difficult and uncertain situation as children (or adults) where we were reassured by a soft, caring face (whether that reassurance was, in the end, justified).
But in general public it is a different situation. If I am stopped by the police or other security force while wearing a balaclava, even in the coldest weather, or a full face helmet they are justified in asking me to remove it temporarily. Since the burqa is not a strictly commanded religious practice, any more than a yarmulke or crucifix is, that should be sufficient.
There is certainly no more valid a justification for the general public to expect to see the person's face unencumbered by a burqa while on the street than there is to see a person's face unencumbered by a balaclava in the same situation.
Now, granted, the Dutch are also looking at including balaclavas and full-face helmets in the law but that seems to be more of an after thought to avoid appearing discriminatory. I do believe that, in the final analysis, that the law is originally and fundamentaly, based on that principle. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 6:50:32 PM | I am as shocked about the number of people who would support this type of legislation as I am that it would be considered in the first place. Yesterday when I viewed the public opinion votes, it was 80% in favour to 20% against.
Some Muslim women choose to wear a burqa some do not. For the ones who do, it would be the social and emotional equivalent of my country legislating that all women must only wear short-shorts and stiletto heels when seen in public.
And shame on Jack Straw (British politican) who demands that Muslim women must remove their burqas in his presence.
The main intent driving this law is not safety--it's fear and contempt. For the number of Muslim women that wear burqas who would hold a position or job in which the clothing would be a legitimate safety issue in Holland--please.
I also disagree with the former Taliban law that forced women to wear burqas in public. Bottom line--a woman should chose how much or little clothing she wishes to wear in public--regardless of anyone else's need to politicize her. | |
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late™
| Joined: 1/9/2005 Msg: 23 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 7:08:38 PM | Choice is the whole point.
Forcing someone to do something like this is wrong, forcing someone not to do it is wrong.
Fanatics on both sides will see the priority of their own bigotry before the matter of the rights of the women,
...who should have the choice. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 8:07:51 PM | I dont think they should ban it. Those wearing it are few and far between, at least here.
As for them getting away with cheating in school or out of a jay walking ticket I wouldnt worry. If she comes from that type of tradition I am sure she isnt just going to get a friend to wear her burka to write an exam for her. In theory it sounds good but in practice I doubt it would EVER happen. As for driving licences I think they should have to remove it for the picture OR have another form of ID like a fingerprint on the back of the licence.
I dont think it COULD be banned in Canada. I dont think they should either. I would rather they didnt wear them but its a free country.
If they ban these then they should ban speedos in public pools and beaches or spandex on the unfit.
I dont understand the last question you posed.
Do we then arrest demonstrators with covered faces ?
If they are peaceful and not breaking the law then no. If they are breaking the law then yes. Dont see what the burka has to do with this situation.  | |
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 25 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban Posted: 11/18/2006 8:34:59 PM | Who knows what choice these women have. I know that here in Vancouver, it's apparent that 99% of the muslim women immigrating here dump their burkha (probably at the international airport). I have only seen it worn twice here in my life time. In the Netherlands there are only 35 women wearing it.
A fundamentalist-any-religion has an element of oppression and threat. In Christianity as well and that is why most of us don't appreciate the hypocrites who proclaim themselves fundamentalist....there's always something in it for them. It's only THEIR interpretation that matters to them...take away the threats then you find a very lonely heart broken man. Always us men. | |
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