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 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 1
The War on Drugs Is a SCAMPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
It's 2005, and the U.S., not to mention other countries, has spent hundreds of billions of dollars in chasing, arresting, trying and incarcerating the users of illegal drugs. The result--not too impressive. Drug use has declined somewhat among certain segments of the population, but not very much and not everywhere. And the stuff is pathetically easy to get.

Entire segments of the Federal Government are involved. The DEA, FBI, BATF for starters. And all 50 states have special organizations to deal with it. We're talking tens of thousands of cops, judges, prosecutors, lab techs--the list goes on. The resources devoted to fighting this "war" are astronomical. And yet, things are little better than before.

If this were a real war we would have long since surrendered and made peace. It's a war we're not winning and will never win. It's time to admit we lost. Most politicians, if you get them to talk after a few drinks, will admit that it's a scam, a political pork barrel that provides tons of jobs for law enforcement and corrections officers. Let's legalize and tax these substances, and use the money for things like education, defense, and Social Security. Our society will be the better for it.
 knights68
Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 2
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 8:48:36 AM
I agree... for the most part.

If we use prohibition as a great lesson, look what it costed us back then and how successful it was. It failed miserably.
So we legalized it and taxed the hell out of it!
Tobacco is the same way. I think the government learned their lesson back then and now instead of out and out outlawing smokes, they tax the hell out of it, run the tobacco growers out of business (me, from a state #2 in tobacco growing) and just get fat and rich off the proceeds.

Now what about drugs. There are large categories of drugs. But I think they all have one thing in common: They are addictive. Just like booze and smokes. So why not just make 'em legal and tax and control them?

Deaths attributed to drugs do not outweigh those of drunks or cancer deaths from smoking. I would not be surprised if they are about equal, give or take.
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 3
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 8:53:30 AM
Absolutely, and by legalizing we can reduce the deaths of people who are the victims of criminals scrambling to steal enough money for their habits. If the products are not only more available but cheaper, a sort of natural equilibrium will be reached as the worst addicts OD and die, while society readjusts. Some might claim it would make it easier for children to get them. But children already get them. I could have when I was 13--and that was 20 years ago.
 Watchman
Joined: 10/26/2004
Msg: 4
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The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 9:02:19 AM
Legalize drugs? You want to add their fatalities to the list of fatalities already occurring with drugs such as alcohol and tobacco?


The number of drug deaths in the US in a typical year is as follows:

Tobacco kills about 390,000.
Alcohol kills about 80,000.
Sidestream smoke from tobacco kills about 50,000.


Let's just compare here for a minute;


The economic cost to U.S. society of drug abuse was an estimated $97.7 billion in 1992, according to recent calculations.



The parallel cost to society for alcohol abuse was estimated at $148 billion, bringing the total cost for substance abuse in 1992 to $246 billion. This total represents a cost of $965 for every person in the United States in 1992. The per-person cost for drug abuse alone was $383.


Now you want to do what???



http://www.drugabuse.gov/EconomicCosts/Intro.html
 Trewq36
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 5
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 9:13:57 AM
But the "economic costs" you quote are based on our current system of prohibition. Many would suggest that legalization would reduce that cost. Like what does it cost to keep them in jail for five to ten years?
And by your numbers Alcohol appears to be a far greater problem. You should be on the temperance band wagon, shouldn't you?
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 6
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 9:14:11 AM
Yes, watchman, but that does not take into account the billions that would be saved from not having to enforce the drug laws anymore. I think we would save billions of dollars in the equation, and have less crime as well. As for lives lost--they are already dying, and to be honest if they want to kill themselves with drugs it is their problem not mine. Making the drugs illegal does not save people from themselves. And there are many things we could do with the money.
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 7
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 9:17:17 AM
And at least half the monetary cost you mention stems from the illegal nature of these substances. If they were legalized that cost would evaporate.
 knights68
Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 8
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 9:37:16 AM
Those who claim making drugs legal will somehow make drugs "easier" for kids to get I suspect are a few cans short of a six-pack when it comes to facts.
Kids have it way too easy now with access to drugs.

While legalizing drugs will not eliminate people from taking "drastic" actions to get money to score drugs, it will not be any better or worse than those that do that now for smokes and beer.

I seriously believe it'll be no different in that regard.

As for the monetary aspect, I again agree with you Avatar. The expenses the other poster cited do not discount the portion that goes for enforcing the illegal drug law. Once drugs are legalized, that money can then be shifted to other areas, such as packaging, R&D, and so forth and so on.
 darjeeling
Joined: 3/11/2005
Msg: 9
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The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 10:49:25 AM

Entire segments of the Federal Government are involved. The DEA, FBI, BATF for starters. And all 50 states have special organizations to deal with it. We're talking tens of thousands of cops, judges, prosecutors, lab techs--the list goes on. The resources devoted to fighting this "war" are astronomical. And yet, things are little better than before.


Absolutely true. Plus the costs of incarceration must be incredibly high.

This all started in the late 80's when crack cocaine unleashed a pandemic of violence as rival gangs fought to control "markets" for the lucrative trade. Which spawned advanced weaponry, SWAT teams, and helicopters for local law enforcement agencies across the country, to stem the tide.

Where prohibition was the causative factor in making the enterprises so lucrative to begin with.


Most politicians, if you get them to talk after a few drinks, will admit that it's a scam, a political pork barrel that provides tons of jobs for law enforcement and corrections officers.


As well as judges that privately believe current drug policy is a losing proposition, and needlessly bloats the judicial system.


Let's legalize and tax these substances, and use the money for things like education, defense, and Social Security. Our society will be the better for it.


I think the case could easily be made that decreases in drug use stem more from drug education than the effects of interdiction to limit the supply. Some form of legalization / decrimnalization takes the profit motive out of the equation, wherein the money saved could also be earmarked for viable drug rehab and education.
 Trewq36
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 10
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 12:42:39 PM

I also noted the failure of the prohibition of alcohol from 1919 to 1933. And the crime wave that Prohibition set in motion so like the one today since "both the Bureau of Narcotics and the Mafia want strong laws against the sale and use of drugs because if drugs are sold at cost there would be no money in them for anyone." Will anything sensible be done I wondered? "The American people are as devoted to the idea of sin and its punishment as they are to making money--and fighting drugs is nearly as big a business as pushing them. Since the combination of sin and money is irresistible (particularly to the professional politician), the situation will only grow worse." I suppose, if nothing else, I was a pretty good prophet.

The media constantly deplore the drug culture and, variously, blame foreign countries like Colombia for obeying that Iron law of supply and demand to which we have, as a notion and as a nation, sworn eternal allegiance. We also revel in military metaphors. Czars lead our armies into wars against drug dealers and drug takers. So great is this permanent emergency that we can no longer afford such frills as habeas corpus and due process of law....Gore Vidal
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 11
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 12:56:04 PM
Amen to that Treq. The "drug war" has done nothing but corrode our civil liberties. We now live in a country where it's possible for them to seize you property on the mere suspicion that you have drugs--and once it's seized it's almost impossible to get back whether you are guilty or not.

Drug testing--if, as the pro-choice folks claim, there is a right to privacy, then mandatory drug testing surely violates that right.
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 12
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 1:44:30 PM
Oh, and what about things like sobriety checkpoints? It's an excuse for cops to search your vehicle without bothering to have just cause. If you ask me, they are not interested in catching drunk drivers except as a bonus. They want to find drugs; otherwise why would they have drug-sniffing dogs at these checkpoints?
 Watchman
Joined: 10/26/2004
Msg: 13
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The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:26:37 PM
So what? The only people I hear complaining about this are those that got caught with drugs at a sobriety checkpoint.

I honestly don't care how many times I get randomly stopped. If those actions remove from the road drunks and people wasted on whatever drugs they may be taking then it is worth it.

It's ridiculous to think that we would save money legalizing even more drugs, the facts I posted for the so called 'legal drugs' show the tremendous costs involved. Legalizing anything else will just make it worse...

We haven't even begun to count the dead bodies from drunk drivers yet, and that effect on society. How many more people will die because someone was wasted on drugs and killed them with their car? The costs to society are not just in money...
 the noodler
Joined: 12/2/2004
Msg: 14
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:31:51 PM
would legalizing drugs reduce or increase the price of marijuana?.. I'm just curious, of course.. you know.. research and stuff ;)
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 15
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:33:53 PM
As far as that goes, we've already discussed the monetary aspect so I won't belabor those points. But we are also talking about the erosion of civil liberties and the conversion of the U.S. into a police state. There was a recent story where cops burst in on a group of old men at a VFW hall playing cards because they had a tip there were drugs there. The only drugs were one man's heart medications--and he was so startled by the cops charging in with automatic weapons leveled that he had a heart attack!

The war on drugs is pissing into the wind and getting it back in your face. It's well beyond the point of insanity. It's not going to work. It's never going to work.
 Trewq36
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 16
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:40:07 PM
noodler. answered above.

"both the Bureau of Narcotics and the Mafia want strong laws against the sale and use of drugs because if drugs are sold at cost there would be no money in them for anyone."
 the noodler
Joined: 12/2/2004
Msg: 17
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:41:03 PM
while I'm inclined to side with you on this one avatar, I've got to disagree.. the war on drugs is working just fine.

~It's keeping people employed on both sides of the conflict
~It's fighting a battle that can't be won, therefore it has staying power and the jobs are safe
~moreso than jobs, it's making the man behind the curtain one hell of a large dime.

It's a big friggin circle, homes.. you know it, I know it, watchman knows it.. The perspective depends on whether or not you're benefiting from it, or have the illusion you're benefiting from it. The fact is, it wont change, no matter how much protesting or marching on the monument you do. We'll have better luck waging a war and winning against the two political parties in the states than we would killing the war on drugs..


you posted, trewq, while I was writing that one out. :) Same point I think..
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 18
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:45:12 PM
LOL--noodler, I never thought I would meet a man more cynical than myself--but there you are!!
 Trewq36
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 19
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:48:50 PM
Yes, noodler, I agree too much money on both sides for either to let go. With us caught in the middle and picking up the tab.
 the noodler
Joined: 12/2/2004
Msg: 20
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:49:24 PM
yeah.. there's a bunch of us hiding under rocks and whatnot. LoL

I agree, but disagree, ya know.. depends on the perspective.. From where I'm sitting,.. let's nix the whole fiasco and get down to business on the stuff that's going to make us a better race, and not just a more wealthy one.
 judge_and_jury
Joined: 3/9/2005
Msg: 21
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:51:46 PM
Your damm right its a scam. How can you have a war on a noun. Its like the war on "terror"
Its just a way to goad people into fear, give up rights and submit to the megalomaniac
leaders.
 Watchman
Joined: 10/26/2004
Msg: 22
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The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 2:54:04 PM
Here are some more facts...

"In reality, illegal drugs are at least as harmful, if not more harmful, than alcohol and tobacco. Illegal drugs kill fewer people only because fewer people use them. Keeping them illegal holds use down: 18 million marijuana users compared to 116 million alcohol users; 6 million cocaine users compared to 60 million tobacco users."

"The single greatest difference between legal and illegal drugs is that illegal drugs generate no profits to spend on advertising and marketing. Once a democratic society legalizes drugs, the forces of free trade and free speech will take over. Cocaine, marijuana, heroin, PCP, LSD and other currently illegal drugs will be mass-marketed as alcohol and tobacco are mass marketed today. Far more people will use newly legalized drugs and far more people will die."

"Alcohol is the leading cause of death among young people in the United States, deaths which occur in alcohol-related homicides, suicides, and accidents (by no means all of which occur in cars). Alcohol kills a total of 100,000 people annually, while tobacco kills between 350,000 and 500,000 more people each year, according to various estimates. These numbers are almost too large to comprehend."

Legalization most likely will end crimes associated with drug dealing and trafficking. But it will increase crimes committed by people under the influence of drugs, as more and more people use them. Overt crimes such as drug-related violence, murder, wife-beating, child abuse, sexual assault, driving while intoxicated, etc., will rise. And the emotional wreckage produced among children of drug abusers will equal and probably exceed that produced among children of alcoholics."


Anyone hear about this 'experiment'?

"Between 1972 and 1978, eleven states in this country decriminalized marijuana. Advocates who lobbied states in behalf of decriminalization insisted then that decriminalization would not increase use. But it did. During the decrim years, marijuana use rose 125 percent among high school seniors, 200 percent among older adults, and 240 percent among teenagers. Interestingly, marijuana use in this country peaked one year after the eleventh and final state decriminalized."


As for penalties not making a difference, guess again...

"Penalties against drug use have prevented and delayed millions of people from using alcohol and other drugs. People have a natural respect for the law, especially children and adolescents. According to the 1987 National High School Senior Survey, half of these students never used marijuana, 85 percent never used cocaine, and 99 percent never used heroin. Compare this with the same students who have never used tobacco (33 percent) and alcohol (8 percent). 6 Although illegal for minors, alcohol and tobacco are more acceptable drugs to use, and they are inexpensive and easy to obtain. It is clear that social tolerance and availability do contribute to an increase in drug use.

Our society must also consider the dangerously addictive nature of drugs. Only 10 percent of those who drink alcohol have problems; however, 75 percent of crack users become addicted.
 Avatar000
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 23
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 3:11:23 PM
"In reality, illegal drugs are at least as harmful, if not more harmful, than alcohol and tobacco. Illegal drugs kill fewer people only because fewer people use them. Keeping them illegal holds use down: 18 million marijuana users compared to 116 million alcohol users; 6 million cocaine users compared to 60 million tobacco users."

"The single greatest difference between legal and illegal drugs is that illegal drugs generate no profits to spend on advertising and marketing. Once a democratic society legalizes drugs, the forces of free trade and free speech will take over. Cocaine, marijuana, heroin, PCP, LSD and other currently illegal drugs will be mass-marketed as alcohol and tobacco are mass marketed today. Far more people will use newly legalized drugs and far more people will die."
Penalties against drug use have prevented and delayed millions of people from using alcohol and other drugs. People have a natural respect for the law, especially children and adolescents. According to the 1987 National High School Senior Survey, half of these students never used marijuana, 85 percent never used cocaine, and 99 percent never used heroin. Compare this with the same students who have never used tobacco (33 percent) and alcohol (8 percent). 6 Although illegal for minors, alcohol and tobacco are more acceptable drugs to use, and they are inexpensive and easy to obtain. It is clear that social tolerance and availability do contribute to an increase in drug use.


--well, maybe. But let's be brutally honest. If they are going to use drugs they know can kill them, and they die, that's there problem. I believe there might be a surge at first, but as the addicts die off it will even out.


"Penalties against drug use have prevented and delayed millions of people from using alcohol and other drugs. People have a natural respect for the law, especially children and adolescents. According to the 1987 National High School Senior Survey, half of these students never used marijuana, 85 percent never used cocaine, and 99 percent never used heroin. Compare this with the same students who have never used tobacco (33 percent) and alcohol (8 percent). 6 Although illegal for minors, alcohol and tobacco are more acceptable drugs to use, and they are inexpensive and easy to obtain. It is clear that social tolerance and availability do contribute to an increase in drug use. "

There are so many problems with that I don't know where to begin. Quite aside from the high probability these statistics are fudged in order to fit a preselected agenda, tolerance of the "legal drugs" is not uniform--33% never used tobacco, versus 8% for alchohol. Why? Tobacco has been demonized far more than alchohol, but nothing like to the extent the illegal drugs have been. It's reasonable to conclude that if the drugs were legalized and more money spent on education the numbers would changed even more. Furthermore, that survey is nearly 20 years old and does not necessarily reflect the current situation.

"Between 1972 and 1978, eleven states in this country decriminalized marijuana. Advocates who lobbied states in behalf of decriminalization insisted then that decriminalization would not increase use. But it did. During the decrim years, marijuana use rose 125 percent among high school seniors, 200 percent among older adults, and 240 percent among teenagers. Interestingly, marijuana use in this country peaked one year after the eleventh and final state decriminalized."

Maybe that's true--but if it is, so frigging what? The main problem is not the drugs themselves but the crime surrounding their illegal sale and use. And pot is far more used than reported. If there were a 200% surge in the use of all these drugs I wouldn't mind since crime would probably drop 200% or more. Let the addicts snort, shoot or smoke themselves to death. It's their business, and I for one am sick of shelling out tax dollars to try and stop them.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 24
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The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 3:12:20 PM
Great Post Avatar, and by in large I agree! I'm not sure about legalizing everything, but just decriminalizing pot would help our country immeasureably. While young men jump out of Chinooks in Colombia some ***hole down the street is growing pot or worse yet setting up a meth lab. Drugs support terrorists because we enable their black market. That commercial is a crock folks. Hate to brake it to you, Marijuanna is far and away America's number one cash crop for one reason, prohibition. I think that there is an intracted hysteria with some drugs in our country, but as a recovered coke head of twenty years this May I don't believe unfettered access to everything is a solution. CAMP, citizens against Marijuanna Purveyance: Not long ago Budweiser was their biggest contributor. Conflict of interest? In my mind it is.
 judge_and_jury
Joined: 3/9/2005
Msg: 25
The War on Drugs Is a SCAM
Posted: 3/30/2005 3:37:31 PM
Here is the reason as to why its a scam

http://www.ciadrugs.com/
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