| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 1:21:51 PM | Ok, I did a search and came up with nothing!
As this is a forum for debate I thought I would start a really controversial topic for discussion.
I have just finished watching tonight with trev mac. It was discussing the topic of rape. Apparently the Govt are looking into ways to amend the current rape laws to make it easier to get convictions.
This is a really tough area as I am sure you are all aware. Thing is what exactly do you judge to be rape? Gone are the days when it was easy to decipher what rape was. It is no longer the forceful and degrading attack it used to be.
Nowadays we have "date rape", "consensual rape" by that I mean where the woman starts off by saying yes, but half way through the sexual act says no. Then there's "drug rape" and "drunken rape".
The programme showed two scenarios. Briefly, one was an office party where the woman didn't know many, started chatting to her boss got drunk, but not drunk enough that she was totally blotto. Invited him back to her room and they had sex. She then claimed he had raped her. The second was a student party where a young woman had had too much to drink and could hardly walk. The bloke who she thought was being nice in offering to walk her home took her to her room and they had sex. She woke in the morning and acccused him of rape. On neither occasions did either of the women say no!
I feel real sympathy for true rape victims. But in this day and age women know the score, and have to accept some responsibility for their own safety. At the risk of getting slaughtered on here some women abuse the system and I do feel sorry for men to a certain extent. It's a bleedin mine field if you are a bloke.
My question is how do YOU define rape? Also can you justify your opinion? | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 1:29:58 PM | The first one with the boss at the office party wasn't rape, I mean most of us have shagged someone whilst drinking alcohol an regretted it the next day, it happens.
The second one, yeah that is deffo rape, if she is so drunk she can hardly speak, let alone consent or say no. The bloke knew what he was doing an is a RAPIST, end of.
My definition of rape is when the girl says no. U could be having sex for some time but as soon as she says no and u knowingly carry on, u are in fact raping the woman.   | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 1:47:36 PM | I would tend to agree with what you are saying from a female point of view. However having said that what about cases where the woman does not say no, but then reports the bloke days later (as the first case did) is that still rape?
I am not trying to be offensive. I am a woman and I believe all genuine rapists deserve to be castrated. Rape used to be all about power but now it's about advantage too. The thing I am trying to understand is how can you change the laws so that there is no doubt?
There have been many cases in the past of vindictive women out for revenge who accuse innocent men and completely ruin there lives (mud sticks). Then again there is the point about women who have genuinely been raped and the bloke gets off because the woman had a drink? I am just trying to understand how the hell you can change the laws in cases where it is just one persons word against another?
If I have offended anyone then I apologise it was not my intention. However this is the problem with this country, ignoring the nasties in life will not make them go away. But I do apologise if I have offended any one, it was not my intention. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 1:58:45 PM | Minefield doesn't cover it--but it is more serious than the aggravated rape suggests and the law needs to address the issues--but can it.
The law will almost have to be the same as the racist scenario's---something is racicist if the person addressed or the persons who hear/observe it deem it to be racisit--the variable being you cannot be racist towards a majority group only discriminating.
So defining rape legally would have to be along the lines of --rape has occured where one person perceives it to be an act of rape--the definition would need to specify the act, probably by use of touching sexually or penetration of any type.
I'd say if one party is incapacitated--drunk/drugged -unable to express concent/resistance it is rape--ignoring the word no is rape-----ignoring removal of hands is rape.
At the end of the day a lot more consideration needs to be focused on the victims. | |
|
zips
|
Joined: 11/16/2006
Msg: 5 | |
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:00:21 PM | The sexual offences act was recently re-vamped to cover all manner of scenarios.....there are different offences covering penetration and the use of "substances", etc.
Rape is defined in law and it is a complex issue which largely based around what constitues consent...is the person able to give "true consent" etc, which is in itself based on a number of factors...age/mental state, etc.
You should be able to access details of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 on legal websites, which may help any confusion....
zips x | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:01:44 PM | this issue is never going to get easier to sort out in todays society.
im sorry but it you take a guy to bed and half way through change your mind, how can that be rape, im not saying she is asking for it im just saying asking a guy to stop just when hes about to come like stopping a plane in mid air (pretty dam hard)
i think it should be put down to a bad experience and learnt from, lots of youngsters go out now and totally bladdered and bad things happen its something we have to deal with.
my daughter had a friend when they were 13 and im not joking when i say this girl looked 19 20, she was nearlly 6ft long blond hair, big boobs and beautiful and dressed like a 19yr old. she used to go clubbing, if she had taken an older guy to bed and then paniced because what ever age she looked she was still 13, does that mean he get done for under age rape!!!!
men who use force to have sex with a women should be done for rape anyother situation is really flakey ground | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:03:36 PM | The key words here are FORCE & AGAINST WILL.
Anything other than that would be extremely difficult to prove either way.
^^^^^edit pink^^^^^ you beat me to it with the word force! | |
|
zips
|
Joined: 11/16/2006
Msg: 8 | |
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:04:29 PM |
if she had taken an older guy to bed and then paniced because what ever age she looked she was still 13, does that mean he get done for under age rape!!!!
nope...he would be guilty ogf unlawful sexual intercourse (USI) if she consented....but in law she cannot consent under the ago of 16. If she were under 13 then it becomes a serious arrestable offence....paedophilia
zips x | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:06:21 PM | this is a real open subject but the way i see it is that if a women is capable of getting herself into such a drunken state then having sex without saying no then it is her responsibility and i don't consider that as rape, i'd consider that as 'shit bad mistake get over it!'
don't persecute a poor guy if you've falsely mislead him, its not his fault!
if you are sober or even maybe drunk & definitely say no and sex still takes place against your will and you are in full control of knowing in your mind then that is considered as rape.
i think to many guys get caught out with this and its so unfair. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:09:24 PM | | so msg 8 you beleive that a guy in his early 20s who thinks hes onto a good thing with a 19 yr old woman should be labelled a paedophile or done for usi. because he was tricked by a silly little girl playing dangerous adult games!!!!!!!! | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:29:15 PM | This is what I men something needs to be done to protect the real victims out there. If you consent then you agreed to it. If I buy a tv on HP and use it for a few weeks then change my mind do you think the law will say ok she has changed her mind she doesn't have to pay? Like hell they would. The law is truly an ass!
There needs to be stronger detterents. People should realise without a shadow of a doubt that the law does not p*ss about in these cases. If you are a woman and you go out and get drunk you know what you are doing. Christ (no offence to anyone) I can't handle my alcohol and I bleedin know it so there is no way I would drink more than I no I can because I am aware of what can happen if I do. My mates pull my leg etc but they are not the ones who have to get home alone and inebriated...I would be!
If I consent to sex I know what I am doing. If I drink with a bloke and I flirt and lead him on then invite him back to mine and ask him in, I am fully aware of what he is expecting. To be honest I wouldn't ask him in or lead him on if I wasn't prepared for the consequences.
However I am also aware that some women are naive (my daughter in law is one) and some men will not take no for an answer! The law needs updating so that every one is aware of what will happen if you are accused or the accusee of rape. Look at the women who pretend to be raped. The men get named etc but the women have their id protected why??? Same with men who get off even though they have done it, the stigma falls on the female. It's wrong. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:45:17 PM | [so msg 8 you beleive that a guy in his early 20s who thinks hes onto a good thing with a 19 yr old woman should be labelled a paedophile or done for usi. because he was tricked by a silly little girl playing dangerous adult games!!!!!!!! ]
Yes. The burdon is on him because he is the adult and a reasonable adult is expected to know the diference between a 13 year old and a 19 year old regardless of the dress-up and make-up. It's the same situation if she were caught drinking in a pub - the landlord would be charged.
Once a woman says no - it's over, full stop. But I don't believe that "no" can come days later when she has regrets or wakes up with a coyote ugly. There have been cases where a woman has had a one night stand consentually and cried rape when her boyfriend found out.
It's getting to the point where you will both need to sign a contractual agreement before dropping trou. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 2:58:10 PM | | I do agree with renegades sentiments but it isn't always easy to tell how old a female is. There are girls of 11 at my sons school and I tell no lies when I say they have the figures of women. Thing is though that some of them know it and they know how to use it too. I am not saying that it is their fault but surely some blame lies with them or their parents? You do a line up of women and see if you could tell the ages and you'd be suprised. Tougher laws on underage drinking and admittance to clubs would be a partial help. As well as men learning that no means no and not "i'm saying no now, but you can tell I don't really mean it". | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 4:00:45 PM | | Well I think where drink is involved the case should be thrown out because I can honestly say I have never got to the stage with alchohol where I didn't know what I was doing. It is irresponsible to blame drink on your actions because it is entirely within your own control how much you drink when you go out I would never consider taking advantage of someone if they were drunk. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/8/2006 4:06:10 PM | | This is a thread that is going to cause so many arguments.... however... my opinion is if sex if instigated by either party then halfway through either party (rape happens to men too) says no then they have to accept responsibilty for anything that may happen.... you know how things go in life especially when hormones is involved (i don't want to condone rape) however if you're not sure about the journey... don't drive the car..... | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 12/9/2006 1:31:39 AM | I do not condone rape.
But I dont see how come the lady is not reponsible because of drink, and yet the man she has been drinking with has to be responsible.
Every single case is different and has to be extremley difficult to deal with. There have been some very good examples of that in this post.
I would not want to be on a jury in some of these cases.
Little off post, but I think the drinking age should be raised to 21 and compulsory ID carried.
It will not stop all rape but it would certainly be effective on all the under age sex etc. maybe even put responsibilty in its right full place too. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 11:53:54 AM |
Thing is what exactly do you judge to be rape?
Any intercourse where both parties don't give sober, verbal consent is rape. In 81% of reported cases in the UK, alcohol consumption is a factor in rape. Obviously, informed consent is a lot harder to give when people are drunk or high. Honestly, the answer is to teach people to reduce their reliance upon alcohol and drugs in social situations. I know that's a tall order, but rapes happen because people get drunk/high and it affects their judgment. That's not an excuse, just the reality. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 12:26:52 PM | Project Sapphire are teams of Police Officers investigating only rape and sexual offences. More information about rape can be found via the Met police website under Project Sapphire.
This is the definition of rape as set by The Sexual Offences Act 2003
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.
The teams have to put in hours of hard investigative work to even get a rape case to be heard in a crown court. Most cases is down to consent which is extremely difficult to prove however in the majority the cases are won at court. At the end of the day it's down to a jury to make that final decision and it has to be without reasonable doubt | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 12:36:03 PM | I may get shot down in flames for saying this but, with the exception of drug assisted rape or where the woman is so incapacitated so as to not give consent (which the new laws are trying to consider) there's usually injuries that are consistent with an attack.
If a woman can't consent then I do believe it should possibly be regarded as rape depending on the circumstances. I know that is a huge can of worms regarding who says what but there's a slight difference between a woman shagging her boyfriend when she's half cut that waking up in a stranger's bed and not having a clue what has happened.
I know that can happen with one night stands and the such but men should see the welfare of the woman first and foremost beyond taking advantage to fulfil their lust in my opinion. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 12:57:37 PM | I've spoken to "rape" victims.... some of them turn out not to be rape. just that they felt horrendous after, couldn't believe they had let it go "that far" realised it was a one night stand (ie the bloke walked away wanting nothing more to do with her)and to save face from being called slapper tart whore and god/ess knows what else have cried rape.
sometimes women use that word as a "tool" (no pun intended) to get back at a man who walks away.
men get used too you know..... fairs fair in this world.
non-consentual sex is rape.. there will be force marks.
I believe it is unfair on men to have a law which says, if a woman says yes then says no at the crucial second, in my opinion it cannot be deemed as rape unless injury is apparent
there is also rape within marriage, which very rarely gets reported. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 1:25:41 PM | Every womans nightmare
but
if you're too p1ssed to say no...
then you can't blame the bloke,
if you say no, then it should mean
No! | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 1:30:23 PM | "non-consentual sex is rape"
Exactly. I always work on the principle that if the girl's so blotto she's having difficulty standing/talking/conversing she's too drunk to give consent. A lot of people who get accused of rape still brought it upon themselves by sleeping with people who may have appeared to consent but were in no sensible state to do so | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 1:38:01 PM | Its a crazy situation at the moment.Something reminds me of a post i found so :
In 2003/04 there were a total of 12,354 recorded offences of rape of a female, this represents an increase of eight per cent from the previous year.
It can be difficult to measure accurate trends in police recorded crime. The reasons for this include: changes in the way police have been asked to record crimes and changes in people's attitudes to reporting crime.
The following appears to be the breakdown in % terms of the 12,354 figure mentioned above:
Complete Sample of Cases 100%
Crimed Cases 75%
Detected Cases 64%
Defendants Charged 31%
CPS Prosecuted 23%
Court Proceedings 21%
Conviction (All Offences) 13%
Conviction (Rape) 6%
Now look at the actual CONVICTION rate.
It works out in the high 90`s percentage wise of cases that actually made it to court.
ie of all cases taken to court,the 21%,19% actually were convicted...does quick head calculation..make the 21% =20% and x by 5 = 100% Do the same with 13+6=19x5..that = a 95% success rate OF THOSE CASES TAKEN TO COURT.
OK my figures are rough and slightly inaccurate..
But.
How high a conviction rate do we want?
Or do you want to see an increase in the numbers of those taken to court?
Bear in mind that the accused of rape can also be women.Rapists are not only males..
Isnt it a curious situation though?
Think about it: Female emancipation is roughly 100 years old in this country.
Yet if a woman gets drunk and cant remember if she said Yes or not the law treats her like an unknowing.naive ?,child and regards her as a victim weather she is one or not.
Talk about having your cake and eating it!
Sorry.
I am not a misogynist.
But:
Equality has a price..And equality has been rammed down mens throats so far that women are choking....
There is a post script to this and it comes from todays news:
A 12 year old boy in Bradford who raped a 5 year old boy has been told he will NOT face a custodial sentance.
Yes he has been convicted of the offence..
I hope the judge,the12 year old and the 12 year olds parents all hang their heads in shame.
And i hope the case goes to the court of appeal because of the leniancy of the trail judge.
Andrew: Disgusted.. | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 3:43:34 PM | Rape is an act of total humiliation and degradation of the victim based on power. It strips the victim of all dignity and self assurance and reduces them to an object of sex.
Comments have been raised in the post regarding alcohol consumption. Just because somebody is intoxicated, does not mean they should be held responsible for such an act on them. No individual/drunk/drugged or sober is responsible for being raped. The only person responsible is the rapist. As another poster said individuals may choose to sleep with people who are in no sensible state to consent. Unfortunately rape victims who may have been raped when intoxicated/drugged have to deal with the rape and also the blame/responsibility others may choose to place on them.
Not all rape victims may occur injuries during rape . Psychological coercion and the expoitation of power balances can occur. Rape victims may become paralysed by fear, afraid to struggle, have been threatened with acts of violence if they make a sound. Again as well as dealing with the rape they have to deal with blaming themselves for not fighting back or trying to stop the incident, and also the fear of not being believed due to no injuries.
Sadly some individuals may abuse the sysytem and choose to lie about rape. Such individuals may make it a damn sight harder for real victims to report rape . | |
|
| Rape???
Posted: 2/21/2008 3:46:14 PM | Thats why there is an enormous campaign on at the moment to tell people to drink sensibly and watch their limits
Eliminate the drunken fools and then potential rapists are going to find it harder. | |
|
Home
login 
