| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/11/2005 1:35:55 PM | Why do people try and live off of minimum wage.
I was in a restaurant today talking to a close friend of mine. We often do not see eye-to-eye. But we are very civil to one another. We do not let our views get in our way. I was getting a to go order when he invited me to sit with him.
We were talking about minimum wage. I expressed to him that it should not be considered a living wage. I believe it should be considered a starting wage to learn and no more. I explained that it is a great wage for kids in high school still being supported by their parents. It would also be a very good vehicle for employers to have more entry level employees considering their line of business.
He kept falling back to his argument that it is very difficult for someone to support his/her family on a minimum wage paycheck. Well someone was listening to us at the table. It was immigrant from Mexico* who has been living up here in the United States for a few decades now. Now I had two people arguing with me.
The immigrant was getting very testy tell me that I only want to keep the poor people like him down. I could see his dander was quickly rising. He explained to me that he has to work two jobs, and his wife works part time cleaning the homes of people like me to support his family. It took me a little bit of digging but I found out he had seven children. The oldest was 19 and the youngest was under a year of age.
I asked our new deliberator/visitor (who was not invited to our table ) why is he having children when he visibly is having a difficult time supporting them. Both my buddy and the immigrant jumped at that comment saying I could not tell someone when, and when not to have children. If they really listened to me, I didn't.
I believe anything needs to be planned. Buying a car, TV, Home, vacation package... And even having children. If you had one by mistake I believe it would be wise to take precautions not to have another child until one can be afforded. It is not fair to the child. It's not fair to society.
So much is offered to the citizens here in America. Food Stamps, Education, Grants for career training, grants for college, most on the backs of small business, and those who have become successful. Those who have made it on their own. 80%+ of the people who are well off here in the United States are self made.
I truthfully believe we are punishing the wrong people, and rewarding the non deserving. There is a commercial that airs here in Southern California that states “Government Grants” for education. These grants never have to be paid back. Where were these grants when I went to school? My parents had no money. I had to pay off my own school loan. I called about the grants to find out that they indeed never have to be paid back. I also found out that they do not check on the person who receives the grant. They do not even know if he/she used the entire grant for his/her education! They only check for enrollment at the time of the application!
There is another idiot that comes on TV at night who sells a book that tells its buyer how to apply for Government grants that never have to be paid back. He has “Question Marks” all over his clothes if anyone else has seen him.
With all of this free stuff why are we feeling sorry for people who don't think for themselves, and choose to work for a minimum wage job for decades? It is nothing more than a lazy environment we are awarding them.
When I see the drop out rate in our schools I get angry. How is it our Governments fault? What IS our Government really supposed to do about it? Books in schools with high drop out rates last one or two semesters. Books in schools with less of a drop out rate last for years! Why is this? I was reading an article in the Wall Street Journal that showed that schools with less of a successful curriculum spend more money per student than in schools with a lower drop out rate.
The only thing the intruder and my friend were telling me is, we need to do more. Well the uninvited immigrant wanted to take me out side and knock some sense in to me. (No Joke) He wanted to show me what a hard worker can do to someone like me. I could do nothing but laugh. I thought to myself, “If you only have enough self pride to buss tables in a restaurant, then you deserve your life style” But I held my tongue to myself.
I asked the immigrant if his children were going to go to college. I really did not get a direct answer. He said if they want to go they can go. When I asked him again he asked me if I care. That got me thinking of a teacher in Los Angeles they are trying to have fired for saying why is it that the Asian and white children do so well and not the Blacks or Mexicans.
Funny the answer to our problems is really in front of us. Education starts in the home. There has to be a way. I don't care if they put charts in buses that say how many children you can afford with a rate scale. I don't care if they have Mandatory parent child days in schools. If these people what the Government to give their children a better education, then we should force these parents to get involved. Give the parent homework to do with the child. Make the parent sign it and fill it out in their own writing.
If they can force me to pay more for these people who are leeches on the system they can force them to get involved. They should be accountable for the children they bring in to the world. If I have to take monies out of my wallet and am told that I am not paying enough to these poor needy people who do not appreciate it. These are their same people who do not appreciate their own children. They do this by having child after child so we can support them, because they can't.
Many of these people do not have any mental or physical disabilities. But they do have many people who are mentally ill telling them “You poor people! We'll take care of you! You can't do it on your own! Don't worry we'll tax the people who are doing well and they will give you all you need! If you are earning minimum wage, We'll get you food stamps!”.
If their kids bring a book back to school that was new at the beginning of the semester and it is now not usable bill the parents. If they do not pay the bill send a garnishment to their work. If the kid spray paints the school bill the parents.
I take the train in to Los Angeles from Orange County. Every day it passes a Government housing complex. They have to repaint it once a week. No joke. I say put up a series of video cameras with zoom lenses and take the picture. I see nothing wrong with work camps. They can do Graffiti clean up and chain them together. I am sure the ACLU will be crying over that comment. I see nothing wrong with breaking rocks if they have to do it more than 4 times.
This is a great place to start lowering taxes. Teach people how to support themselves. Minimum Wage is not supposed to be a living wage. Everyone is saying we are giving up on the children. No we gave up on the parents. I am voting for birth control in the water and give people the antidote when they pass a test. If they can't hold a job, balance a check book, stay sober, stay out of jail.... They don't get the antidote.
*Mexico: The immigrant told me at least 20 times how it is in Mexico. He did tell me he was not a US citizen and was going to retire in Mexico when he was ready. I did not mean anything racist, So no one go there. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/11/2005 7:28:27 PM | .
BullDogMed;
That wasn't the point. We are making the wrong people pay for the problems of America.
I was trying to make that point. The people the bleeding hearts want to make pay and work harder already do.
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 7:40:21 AM | What is really amazing is the mindset that people like that immigrant don't need to take responsibility for their actions. Certainly it is not anyone's right to decide when a couple can have a baby. However, why would a responsible couple that is struggling to make ends meet want to have another one in the first place? When they do have another baby and cannot afford to pay for it, who does pay for it?
Taxpayers that's who.... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 11:19:04 AM |
Equal Taxation, Make the Rich Pay, they can afford it.
That is not equal taxation, why should the rich pay as much as 40% of their income when someone else doesn't have to pay anything?
What you want to do is penalize those ambitious enough to work hard and become successful, and then give that money to the people who don't deserve it. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 11:37:49 AM | | Living at the bottom is the best impetus to get people off their ass, and into work. Handing out welfare checks only breeds reliance on welfare. I'd love to see any statistics that show when welfare increases, then unemployment decreases. It just doesn't work that way. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 11:54:13 AM | I only say that the Rich should pay the same percentage as you or I do.
Currently they do not, they are getting a free ride at our expense. The Problem is not the few thousand of dollars being taken off the bottom, but the millions of dollars being scammed at the Top.
It is so funny to see people support those who are screwing them. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 12:01:05 PM | | The rich in the US pay more than the poor. The stats are something like the top 10% wage earners pay 20% of the taxes, or something like that. We have tax brackets, and the more you make, the more you pay. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 12:13:44 PM | But the top 10% own/control over 60% of the wealth and are only paying 20% of the cost. While the middle class owns less then 40% of the resources, yet pay 80% of the taxes, How is this fair?
We, the middle class, are getting screwed. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 12:21:41 PM | Lets look at the arguments... if the wealth distribution model ( capitalism) is the best way to be productive and achieve the best allocation of resources, then we have maximized the production we are capable of. Hence a certain amount of wealth is created.
Of this wealth, a cetain amount is to go into holding together the fabric of society. If you have more of the wealth, then more of your share will go in. You still have more. And you've been more rewarded by the society you live in. Seems fair to me.
The other part of the equation is that once you have wealth it is easier to make wealth. You get higher returns, more freebies, better connections, regualtions designed to keep you wealthy. So you have an advantage to start with.
Next, the argument that people should just 'get up' is ridiculus. There are so many elements of society that tell you to stay down, in your place. These people aren't motivated for a reason - > they don't see the fruit of thier efforts. It gets taken away from them.
I would have to agree on the children thing. I know in other countries, having sons is your life insurance policy. But in NorthAm I don't think its required. Its part religious belief I blelieve too. And maybe 'the intruder' hopes his sons and daughters can make it and help him out in the end.
If only people who could 'afford' kids had kids, the gene pool would get shallow really fast. Maybee this has happened already.. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 12:25:01 PM | We need to look at actual statistics if we are gonna debate this. I think we're both going off the tops of our heads on this.
If I'm remembering right, then the top 10 are paying for 20% of the taxes, which leaves the remaining 90% to pay for only 80% of the taxes. Again, we need to see the real numbers as I'm not entirely sure I'm not making these up as I go along. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 12:44:30 PM | Once more Bulldag, you are not using all the numbers. You are only seeing that 90% of the people pay 80% of the cost and think that is good. But those 90% of the people own less then 60% of the country and yet carry 80% of the cost. Not Fair. The 10% at the top should be carrying over 60% of the cost not just 20%.
And again:
It is so funny to see people support those who are screwing them. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 2:28:14 PM | Why can't somebody who enjoys cooking make enough money to raise a family?
Everybody's concept of success is differant, I would have loved to continue cooking the rest of my life, but there is no money or benefits. So why should I be forced into a career that is not going to make me happy just to provide for my family? | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 2:54:15 PM | Here is the low-down on taxes for 2002:
The top 5% of taxpayers payed 53.8% of all taxes, but made only 30.6% of all income.
The top 1% paid 33.7% of all taxes, and their share of taxes has grown faster than their income every year since 1990.
The top 50% of tax payers paid over 94% of all taxes sonce 1990, and 96% from 2000-2002.
Data taken from: http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/factsheetwhopaysmostindividualincometaxes.update.pdf
MajMike | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 7:04:00 PM | Thank you MajMike, I knew I was slaughtering the numbers on here. And, boy, was I off. I don't see how, after reading that, there can still be people complaining that the rich are relying on the poor to pay taxes for them. It's a liberal fantasy that is blatantly false.
A little bit off topic, but at one point, The Beatles were paying 95% of all the money they made in sales in the US to British taxes. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/12/2005 8:24:09 PM | Mike,
The tax data is misleading.
It references income tax only.
However, that is not the only component of federal taxes that we pay. If you work for a business, you not only pay income tax, but also payroll tax. Payroll tax has been on the increase year over year to the extent that it now accounts for as much government revenue as the income tax.
The payroll tax is supposed to be used to fund social security, but it's not really the case. You hear a lot of political discussionon income tax, but because of payroll's tax tie to social security, it's typically not cut. Like I said, it has ballooned over the years so that it provides as much revenue as Income tax.
The difference is payroll tax is regressive. Everyone pays the same percentage of payroll tax and it's only paid on the first $90,000 of income. Over that and you're payroll tax free. Meaning a rich person who lives off dividends can end up paying less in overall taxes than a poor person.
When you take that into consideration, people making $60,000 paid a larger share of their 2001 income in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes than a family making $25 million, the latest Internal Revenue Service data show.
In regards to minimum wage, 60% of the people working these jobs over are 20 and over. They're not just kids. In the last 30 years this country has lost most of it's manufacturing jobs and union jobs.
Not only that, in 1970 the average 25 yr old male made $2 per hour more than in 2000.
Over the last 30 years, 99% of americans had an average increase in income of $2,710 or about $100 a year (or a nickel an hour per year). The incomes of the super rich increased from about $20.3 million to $24 million.
In 1970 the bottom third owned 10 percent of the income, ten times the top 1/100th percent who owned 1 percent of income. By 2000 the two groups were equal. The bottom third dropped to 5 percent of income and the top 1/100th percent grew fivefold to 5 percent.
So the poor get poorer the rich get richer.
According to the SF Chronicle April 11, 2005:
"On March 30, Congress was told that 78 percent of known tax cheats in investment partnerships are not even asked to pay because there are not enough tax collectors to go after them. Congress and the Bush administration rejected the request by the IRS Oversight Board, a citizen panel Congress created, for extra money to pursue some of these tax cheats and stop about 1 percent of the $311 billion in estimated annual tax cheating."
"While letting rich tax cheats run wild, Congress did finance a crackdown on the poor. The working poor, most of whom make less than $16,000, are eight times more likely to be audited than millionaire investors in partnerships."
"The 2001 Bush tax cuts included a stealth tax increase on the middle class and upper-middle class that will cost them a half trillion dollars in the first 10 years and, for 35 million families, wiping out part or all of their Bush tax cuts."
"Over time, the impact of tax relief for the super rich and more taxes for everyone else is profound. The rich can save and invest more and more, increasing their incomes and political power over time through the magic of compound interest, while everyone else has less of their money to spend or save and millions of people are mired in debt."
So, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 7:03:36 AM | 
So, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
Ignorance of the real problem is how people's efforts are misdirected. You complain about a guy who is trying to scrape together a few thousand dollars while you support the guy taking millions out of the system. And as we are here on a Free Web site I doubt any of us are making Millions per year. Tax THEM more so WE will have more in our pockets.
It is so funny to see people support those who are screwing them. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 7:45:21 AM | | The reason more people try to live off minimum wage is: there's more and more jobs which only pay minimum wage now. The standard of living is going down, especially with economic slowdowns by republicans every few years. American labor has suffered most of all from this. People just figure: I'm going to have to go with what I've got and live my life. Maybe some day I'll do better, but I'm not going to die without having a life. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 8:11:53 AM |
Meaning a rich person who lives off dividends can end up paying less in overall taxes than a poor person
That is not true, dividends are counted as income and as such are included into the overall tax bracket of the person receiving the dividends. When you hear of people like Theresa Heinz Kerry only paying 8% in tax with the hundreds of millions of dollars she has, it is because she invests heavily in Municipal Bonds which provide tax free income.
She lends money to municipalities so they can increase the quality of life for the people that live in those municipalities by bettering their schools and infrastructure. For that, she gets a tax advantage of which I think is the right thing to do.
The rich pay the lion's share of taxes while almost half the American people pay under 1% of all the revenue taken in by the Federal Government. The rich pay way more than their fair share, just imagine how great this country would become if the half of America that is only paying 1% of all the taxes started to pay 50% of the taxes. We sure wouldn't have to be worrying about things like Social Security. There would be plenty of money for all those programs... | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 8:24:22 AM | If the US government LETS the rich own everything, why shouldn't they pay the lion's share of the taxes?
How could everyone else afford to pay the government?
are you saying we should dismantle the government and run the country on 2% of the taxes? *LOL*
Capitalism is a top heavy pyramid scheme and income needs to be continually redistributed so the system can keep running, otherwise 1/2 the people would be dying of hunger and disease and have no place to live. | |
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| Why do people try and live off of minimum wage?
Posted: 4/13/2005 8:34:13 AM |
How could everyone else afford to pay the government?
They could work hard and learn a better job than making a burger or mopping a floor. All people in America have the opportunity to become successful, some take that opportunity and some prefer the mop and burger.
The people that work hard and become successful shouldn't be forced to subsidize the Mcdonald's employees... | |
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