| | Is the Big Bang Theory wrong?Page 1 of 7 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) | Physicists at UNC have created a model of the universe that requires no Big Bang. Rather, it breathes new life into a once discarded theory of an oscillating universe. Granted, it is only a competer simulation, but it's still fascinating...
A new cosmological model demonstrates the universe can endlessly expand and contract, providing a rival to Big Bang theories and solving a thorny modern physics problem, according to University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill physicists. The cyclic model proposed by Dr. Paul Frampton, Louis J. Rubin Jr. distinguished professor of physics in UNC's College of Arts and Sciences, and co-author Lauris Baum, a UNC graduate student in physics, has four key parts: expansion, turnaround, contraction and bounce.
During expansion, dark energy -- the unknown force causing the universe to expand at an accelerating rate -- pushes and pushes until all matter fragments into patches so far apart that nothing can bridge the gaps. Everything from black holes to atoms disintegrates. This point, just a fraction of a second before the end of time, is the turnaround.
At the turnaround, each fragmented patch collapses and contracts individually instead of pulling back together in a reversal of the Big Bang. The patches become an infinite number of independent universes that contract and then bounce outward again, reinflating in a manner similar to the Big Bang. One patch becomes our universe.
"This cycle happens an infinite number of times, thus eliminating any start or end of time," Frampton said. "There is no Big Bang."
An article describing the model is available on the arXiv.org e-print archive and will appear in an upcoming issue of Physical Review Letters. The work was supported in part by a U.S. Department of Energy grant.
Cosmologists first offered an oscillating universe model, with no beginning or end, as a Big Bang alternative in the 1930s. The idea was abandoned because the oscillations could not be reconciled with the rules of physics, including the second law of thermodynamics, Frampton said.
The second law says entropy (a measure of disorder) can't be destroyed. But if entropy increases from one oscillation to the next, the universe becomes larger with each cycle. "The universe would grow like a runaway snowball," Frampton said. Each oscillation will also become successively longer. "Extrapolating backwards in time, this implies that the oscillations before our present one were shorter and shorter. This leads inevitably to a Big Bang," he said.
Frampton and Baum circumvent the Big Bang by postulating that, at the turnaround, any remaining entropy is in patches too remote for interaction. Having each "causal patch" become a separate universe allows each universe to contract essentially empty of matter and entropy. "The presence of any matter creates insuperable difficulties with contraction," Frampton said. "The idea of coming back empty is the most important ingredient of this new cyclic model."
This concept jolted Frampton when it popped into his head last October.
"I suddenly saw there was a new way of solving this seemingly impossible problem," he said. "I was sitting with my feet on my desk, half-asleep and puzzled, and I almost fell out of my chair when I realized there was a much, much simpler possibility."
Also key to Frampton and Baum's model is an assumption about dark energy's equation of state -- the mathematical description of its pressure and density. Frampton and Baum assume dark energy's equation of state is always less than -1. This distinguishes their work from a similar cyclic model proposed in 2002 by physicists Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok, who assumed the equation of state is never less than -1.
A negative equation of state gives Frampton and Baum a way to stop the universe from blowing itself apart irreversibly, an end physicists call the "Big Rip." The pair found that in their model, the density of dark energy becomes equal to the density of the universe and expansion stops just before the Big Rip.
New satellites currently under construction, such as the European Space Agency's Planck satellite, could gather enough information to determine dark energy's equation of state, Frampton said.
| |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 1/31/2007 8:45:39 PM | Physicists at UNC have created a model of the universe that requires no Big Bang. Rather, it breathes new life into a once discarded theory of an oscillating universe. Granted, it is only a competer simulation, but it's still fascinating...
I never have believed in the theory of the Big Bang I'm a firm believer that the Universe has always been and has always existed there is no such thing as time. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 1/31/2007 9:54:16 PM | | I've never been a supporter of the BBT. It requires us to toss out the best established law of physics: Conservation of Energy. The BBT has also had a long history of needing to be patched up with ever increasingly speculative assumptions. To name a few: inflation, hyperinflation, cold dark matter, hot dark matter, and dark energy. It well past time to consider alternatives. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 1/31/2007 10:53:48 PM | | Until we can understand quantum physics and in particular Entanglement then how can we theorise something we can not observe from afar.we are trying to do a jigsaw puzzle while being in the puzzle.As for the laws, this they are not they are theories and as such fit experimental evidence to what we can observe.Many observations are needed to make a working thoery,not as some do when they see a glitch or hole they Change a part off the theory to suit what they have seen. it would seem to me the theory needs scrapping and the evidence re-moulding in to a new theory.As an example Einstein never liked the expanding univese theory but ultimately had to accept it.Entanglement would suggest that there is more to the universe than the three spatial dimensions(as relativity says nothing can move faster than light but experiments, in europe measured the speed off entanglement at up to 10 million times faster) we live in and time could not even be a property just a continuing disorder(entropy) that gives the illusion of time.If the universe has more dimensions then we are like fish never being able to observe the land, we only experience one plane off existance.I believe in the occult life after death and such and see many connections between classical and quantum physics and the spiritualist movements.For example if i belive in luck i am statistically more likely to predict the outcome of the toss off a coin with believers getting higher scores than non belivers.This would indicate mind over matter Give me a theory for that.It seems to me what is described is string theory with multiple births and such constructing a multiverse.Which could be within a larger structure that we can not percieve.I have quoted evidence and in a way made my own theory based on two experiments yet who is to say one is wrong and the other Right. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/1/2007 12:43:37 AM | | I have created my own set of theories on almost everything. Of course I considered the big bang theory at first, but quickly discarded it. My theory is close to this oscillating theory, but not quite the same, as I have an ever expanding universe of sorts. | |
|
| |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/1/2007 9:07:40 AM | | This is a redundant topic. The theoretical physics behind this report is far from novel cosmology. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/2/2007 3:57:45 AM | Sombient, what movie cover is that image from? I've seen it in a video store somewhere but can't place it. It's driving me crazy!
And as for being redundant, well if a new article about a new computer simulation based on an old theory is redundant, then isn't everything else in life? Heck, I'm pretty sure we've talked about the universe and love before. Breathing is pretty redundant too...
Late makes a good point (as always). Where's the math?
But that typically follows ideas like this. I'm sure Hawkings and Co. are already busy showing why this is or isn't possible. Computer simulations are little more than ideas expressed with visual aide. They aren't proof in and of themselves. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/2/2007 4:03:21 PM | Thanks for the article sweetness...
I love how when we talk about the big bang, people support it, then an article comes out about an alternative, and people come out of the woodwork saying how flawed the BBT is! lol
I love to speculate, but I hardly think any of us here has the math/physics background to really start making assumptions about which one is 'right'.
But since we're voting, I support the BBT! lol  | |
|
grog27
| | Joined: 2/25/2005 Msg: 10 | |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/2/2007 10:37:50 PM | RE: OP That's the coolest theory I've heard so far! I like it! A sort of variation on the "panes" theory of ajoining multiverses, maybe? In any case, it seems to be more plausible than the single Big Bang idea, which has always bugged me, mostly because of the question of what happened BEFORE the supposed Big Bang; for instance, was there "time" before the universe began? | |
|
rake_
| | Joined: 7/16/2006 Msg: 11 | |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/3/2007 7:18:37 AM | | The initial incarnation of the BBT was a solution to GR's field equations. Just as gravitational lensing and redshifts, black holes, dark energy, etc... were. The ovservational evidence supporting BBT is primarily the cosmic background radiation and the redshifting of galaxies. Since then it has undergone many iterations, some more promising than others. There are still issues, either partially or completely unsolved and at the end of the day its best to keep in mind that the BBT says nothing about the origin of the universe. This is not a weakness of the theory and it cannot be used to presuppose that the universe has an origin or a beginning and hence a creator. This subject remains an ongoing topic of theoretical research. | |
|
| |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/3/2007 9:54:31 PM | I have a hard time feeling comfortable assuming the red shift is entirely due to velocity. Since most "stable" elements have an infinitesimal decay rate, then why not assume photons also have a similar inherent instability. The time scale across the observable universe is so vast that it is hard for a mind to grasp that there might be an unknown mechanism that bleeds away a tiny little bit of energy from a photon and thereby reduces its frequency at a constant rate, mimicking the typical delta velocity/distance relationship. This wouldn't mean the BB is wrong, but it could mean that there is a generally stable universe punctuated by "little" bangs.
And no, I don't have the math skills or dedication to detail to back this up, it just makes more sense to me this way. | |
|
| |
rake_
| | Joined: 7/16/2006 Msg: 15 | |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 12:11:55 AM | I dont think that redshifting is based on the assumption that all shifts are caused by velocity. In fact, photons can undergo both positive (blue shifting) and negative (redshifting)energy transformations as a result of various physical processes. These include natural photon decay, gravitational field shifting, etc...Not only that but the photon wavelength required to allow it to propogate through space (remember, photons are also described as waves) is proportional to the matter/energy distribution of the universe. So as the universe expands, the density descreases and as a result the propogation wavelength increases. In theory, if the accelerated rate of expansion is large enough to overcome the cumulative energy loss then that photon could continue to propogate indefinitely.
now to address your point, its important to remember that the decay can be described in terms of a cumulative energy loss occurring throughout the path travelled by the photon. Therefore the wave energy diffusion is proportional to the distance travelled by the photon from the emission source to the detector. if you knew that distance then you could weed out decay-shifted photons from velocity-shifted photons. This can be solved by using standard candles to estimate distance. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 4:22:51 AM | Interesting read. I think BBT is truly the most reasonable theory out there. I thought Steven Hawking and others pretty much quashed this oscillatory universe theory... I love discussing this stuff and learning about it. M Theory and String Theories are compelling and highly interesting as well. | |
|
grog27
| | Joined: 2/25/2005 Msg: 17 | |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 9:51:23 AM | "In fact, photons can undergo both positive (blue shifting) and negative (redshifting)energy transformations as a result of various physical processes."
I hadn't heard about this phenomenon before; so photons, which are, essentially, light particles, can actually change over time? If this is indeed the case, couldn't this, theoretically, have some effect on the Universal Constant, which is one of the cornerstones of Eintsein's Theory of Relativity? Seems to me that, if the UC can be altered, then all other bets are off. (By the way, while I was googling Universal Constant, I came across this article, which is somewhat related;
http://keyword.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=universal+constant&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dc5565d29c71cd942%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Duniversal%2Bconstant%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.universetoday.com%252Fam%252Fpublish%252Funiversal_constant_not.html%253F1142005%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DnsBrowserRoll%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.universetoday.com%2Fam%2Fpublish%2Funiversal_constant_not.html%253F1142005 | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 10:02:46 AM |
I have a hard time feeling comfortable assuming the red shift is entirely due to velocity.
Technically speaking, they're not. In the BBT the redshift isn't so much due to velocity but the expansion of spacetime. As spacetime expands the light is stretched out and redshifted. The velocity can add a small amount of redshifting or blueshifting though.
Since most "stable" elements have an infinitesimal decay rate, then why not assume photons also have a similar inherent instability. The time scale across the observable universe is so vast that it is hard for a mind to grasp that there might be an unknown mechanism that bleeds away a tiny little bit of energy from a photon and thereby reduces its frequency at a constant rate, mimicking the typical delta velocity/distance relationship. This wouldn't mean the BB is wrong, but it could mean that there is a generally stable universe punctuated by "little" bangs.
This very suggestion was made during the last century to explain the redshift. It's known as Tired Light. Unfortunately, it runs up against some observational problems. Perhaps the biggest is the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR). The distribution of different frequencies of radiation match what's known as the blackbody curve. The problem arises in that the CMBR should also undergo redshift like galaxies do. But when it does it loses the characteristic blackbody distribution. This means that you have to assume that the CMBR actually has a different distribution and that we just happen to be located at a special place in the universe where it just happens to look exactly like blackbody radiation. Explaining the CMBR is perhaps the greatest challange facing alternate cosmological theories. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 2:19:44 PM | | If what they are trying to say is that there is no God and it was only a bolt of lightening that created the beginning of life, then i think the Big Bang Theory is wrong. One reason is because a bolt of lightening can't create a human soul, or emotions. Who created emotions? Was it the bolt of lightening? No I think it was God who created us because he answers prayers too from us. He makes tumors disappear into thin air just by asking him to right at that moment. So I don't think it's right to say there is not a God. I think that would be the wrong conclusion to say. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 4:33:01 PM |
THE WORDS BIG BANG THEORY SAY ITS ALL" THEORY " NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE Like the "Theory of Gravity" or the "Theory of bouyancy", which tells us that falling and floating on water are "only theories".
In short, you have no idea what "theory" means when used in a science.
As for me, I'm curious to see the reasoning behind what appears to be a claim that expansion of time-space will eventually pull small objects apart. Thusfar, even relatively large gravitational bodies (galactic clusters) have had enough shared pull to overcome the effects of universal expansion. Is there any real reason to believe that will change? | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 6:16:56 PM |
Since most "stable" elements have an infinitesimal decay rate, then why not assume photons also have a similar inherent instability. The time scale across the observable universe is so vast that it is hard for a mind to grasp that there might be an unknown mechanism that bleeds away a tiny little bit of energy from a photon and thereby reduces its frequency at a constant rate, mimicking the typical delta velocity/distance relationship. This wouldn't mean the BB is wrong, but it could mean that there is a generally stable universe punctuated by "little" bangs.
This very suggestion was made during the last century to explain the redshift. It's known as Tired Light. Unfortunately, it runs up against some observational problems. Perhaps the biggest is the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR). The distribution of different frequencies of radiation match what's known as the blackbody curve. The problem arises in that the CMBR should also undergo redshift like galaxies do. But when it does it loses the characteristic blackbody distribution. This means that you have to assume that the CMBR actually has a different distribution and that we just happen to be located at a special place in the universe where it just happens to look exactly like blackbody radiation. Explaining the CMBR is perhaps the greatest challange facing alternate cosmological theories.
I realize there is a good correlation in inflationary theory to the observed facts. But then Tycho had good correlation as well for his geo-centric solar system. I am not qualified to give anything but a layman's opinion on this, but my gut feeling is that the science community is going down the wrong road when it comes to inflation theory. Everything makes sense up to that point, and it just seems to me that a simpler, more reasonable explanation is photon decay resulting in the apparent red shift. Then of course the CMBR would need to be explained differently... perhaps it has something to do with the decay energy from the photons. I don't know but I think that more knowledgable people than I should be looking at alternative possibilities. Inflation seems to be a stretch of my imagination that goes a step beyond science.
Again, this is just my opinion and I certainly don't expect to sway anyone's thinking without a better argument because I would be the first to admit I have no hard basis for thinking this other than a gut feeling. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 7:23:18 PM | I am not qualified to give anything but a layman's opinion on this, but my gut feeling is that the science community is going down the wrong road when it comes to inflation theory. Everything makes sense up to that point, and it just seems to me that a simpler, more reasonable explanation is photon decay resulting in the apparent red shift. The problem is that we can confirm that movement causes red-shift. We can see it in near objects. We can see differences between leading and trailing sides of galaxies.
Since we know that red-shift occurs because of vector, saying that it *also* occurs because of photon decay, and that the effect is transparent enough for one to blend into the other unnoticed, seems to strain credability without a very solid reason to believe it. Since "photon decay" is entierly speculative, and red-shift is known, I'm going to have to side with known phenomina.
There's also the problem of how matter is arranged in the universe. If we remove the expansion of timespace, we loose our explanation for clustering in galaxies. | |
|
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 9:19:13 PM |
There's also the problem of how matter is arranged in the universe. If we remove the expansion of timespace, we loose our explanation for clustering in galaxies.
Maybe they were already there during the bang... that would take care of the time and clustering problem. I'm not saying that there wasn't some kind of event, it just didn't include the entire universe.
Again, I have no other reason other than an intuitive feeling that something is not right with the current cosmology theory. | |
|
arri
| | Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 24 | |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 9:21:50 PM | | We have a minimum of 14 billion years to figure out how the universe was created. What's the rush? | |
|
rake_
| | Joined: 7/16/2006 Msg: 25 | |
| Is the Big Bang Theory wrong? Posted: 2/4/2007 9:28:52 PM | | before straying any further, i think that its important to see the forest from the trees. Clearly redshift does not always indicate distance. In addition to this, there are anomalous observations and flaws in the BBT. However, AFAIK I don't think that at the present moment they amount to sufficient contradictory evidence to falsify the currently accepted predictive model of the BBT. I don't even think that they are even enough to rule out the expansion of the universe. However I would immagine that the rate of that expansion is subject to intense scrutiny. | |
|