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 honey_kizzes
Joined: 9/30/2004
Msg: 1
FORGIVENESS how does it workPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
It says so many times to FORGIVE, but can you really do so? can you really let it go once you say: I FORGIVE YOU?
Lets take for example RAPE.....can a woman let it go, and move on with her life once she FORGIVES herself for what happened? Once she forgives the man? Can we really ever forgive the person for what has happened?
What about if someone KILLS someone you love, takes them away from you, can you ever really let it go, and live life after you forgive them? can you really forgive the completely?

I really would love to know your views on HOW to FULLY FORGIVE evil?
What happens if we can not forgive?
I mean i know we ask for forgiveness from GOD, and he is quick and good to do so, but if we do not forgive ourselfs then why should he????


PLEASE tell me your thoughts on this...
 ezgoinguy
Joined: 12/7/2004
Msg: 2
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 11:40:10 AM
Thank you for your post, it is a good question and I can relate to it sincerely.

Hate breeds hate, often people misplace their sentiments, be it hate, for and on the person rather then the action. So many have found peace and have been able to move on and live a normal life by providing support for those who were put through similar circumstances. This way they can feel better when they assist someone to feel better. No anger or thoughts of hate towards a person who has brought pain and suffering to someone will bring any thing positive to the victim or to those affected.

Life is a diverse set of situations and circumstances, some joyous some painful and at times it is hard to not think of the painful events, it can be like a tape that replays over and over again. Letting go is hard and I know that I liked to hold on to the pain and hatred I felt for those who hurt me and those I loved. I became comfortable in those feelings and it controlled me. In knowing that oters in this world had gone through so much worse then me and have moved on and gave something back that had positive results for others made me realize that I could not use pain and the past in today, it would not benefit me, however hard I tried. Those who would console me soon became frustrated and wanted nothing to do me as I was always in the past. I had to get over it and move on, which I did.

Support groups can be a good source of support yet they stay in the problem rather then move into the solution. Reliving a situation or circumstance does nothing to aid in letting go. Foregiveness however can have a lasting and positive effect on your life and the live's of those around you.

I found that in life at times, people are like a glass of dirty water. If a pitcher containing prestine water is held near the glass and water is poured from that source, the dirty water will soon be displaced and the glass will contain only pure prestine water. In the water in that pitcher is forgiveness, compassion, acceptance and gratitude. Peace be with you.
 eccentric
Joined: 1/1/2005
Msg: 3
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 11:57:00 AM
No, there is no forgiveness for many things. There is only acceptance that it happened, nothing you can do now will change that; and there is understanding, that it does not have to control the rest of your life.

Too many people disregard hate as detrimental emotion. I can say for myself that hate has fueled me to succeed and given me the strength to get up every morning. When I had nothing left, I still had hate. I hate the world, therefore I will not accept defeat from the world.
 craww
Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 4
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 2:48:09 PM
ezgoing,

wow! i wish i could get the tape playing in my head to stop, but it keeps playing.
i forgive everyone, cause i know god is the judge and we all are messed up, but i still have the tape playing........it won't quit probably till i die.

the tape causes me to be disgusted with certain people, as well as myself.
 ray669
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 5
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History
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 3:00:24 PM
The ability to forgive depends on the amount that there is to forgive. God will not abandon you because you do not have the power to forgive, but you must believe in it and stride for it.
 ezgoinguy
Joined: 12/7/2004
Msg: 6
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 3:10:25 PM
craww

I read a story that helped me quite a bit with the tape. Was a story of the old west and how one day a movie projector was brought to this little town. No one had seen a movie before and there was quite a lot of excitement. The whole town came as the projectionist set it up to show on the side of a canvas tent.

The movie started, it was one of those shows where a villian kidnaps the sherrifs girlfriend and tied her to railroad track as the train was approaching. People were yelling at the villian as he played with his big mustache. One gentleman stood up, pulled out his gun and shot at the villian, saying Ill fix you, you SOB. And everyone laughed. Guns and shots were quite a regular thing in those days so the people laughed as the man thought he could change what was happening by shotting at the picture showing on the tent. In actuality, if he shot at the projector, then it would have stopped. Far to often we are influence by what is happening outside of ourselves and try to change things by reacting to the picture to change when it is in fact the projector or our mind. The thoughts are what have to change to change what is going on around you.

I had a fiannce who committed suicide a number of years ago, my whole life and thoughts were about myself not being there for her. I was blaming myself. She had a terrible upbringing, was abused in every manner you can think of and had self-esteem issues and feelings of being at fault for what happened to her. She was unable to turn the channel or shut the tape off and her relief came only when she took her life. For many years i blamed myself and hated her father and others who hurt her, I was teetering on doing something to stop the tape that was playing in my life.

I realized that i had to focus on other things and be a positive influence on others and not to live in self-pity and with hate, I had to learn that there are things that people do that are horrendous and people who have to live with these injustices and pain from their actions. I had to separate the action from the person, had to stopp personalizing things and work on my thought pattern.

Sow a thought,
reap an action
Sow an action.
Reap a habit
Sow a habit.
reap a character
Sow a character,
reap a destiny

My thoughts were transforming me into something i wasn't, I wasnt born to hate, I was born to learn and to love. I had to learn from the situation. I had to make myself available to others because we are all teachers and we are all students.

I look at life like i was driving a car. if the rearview mirror is larger then the windshield, I am going to have a lot of trouble along my journey. I am going to miss a lot of the scenery and likely have a lot of accidents. I look back occasionally but now my eyes are on the road ahead, not on what is behind. Drive safe, enjoy the journey, help those on the side of the road who may be experiencing problems and be somewhat careful of the hitch hikers, but remember it is always nice to share the journey.
 honey_kizzes
Joined: 9/30/2004
Msg: 7
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 3:37:27 PM
Totally agree, its the person you can forgive, its the action that you cant forget....

I have no problem forgiving, really that is the easy part, but its the hurt, terror, pain, memory of the event that lingers....Letting GO is the hard part...

I am glad to hear others points of view on this, its something all my life I have tried to follow, to forgive others, to forgive myself, and to ask forgiveness...But I always struggled with DID I TRULY FORGIVE, IF I CANT FORGET IT????IF IT STILL STINGS OR HURTS?
 lateā„¢
Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 8
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 5:30:39 PM
The only way you can tell if you've actually forgiven somebody is, if you no longer resent them for what they did.

Tall order sometimes.

I think it's possible to not forgive somebody and still not be consumed by hate, just as I see people "forgive" others and still carry some negative feelings towards them.

For many, forgiveness is just an illusion, another form of denial.
 Mr_Niceguyblue
Joined: 2/19/2005
Msg: 9
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 7:34:52 PM
What is forgiveness anyway? what does it mean to forgive?

i think it's a form of apathy. Idealy, to have no resentment of the perpetrator's damaging actions; to love your enemies,

according to Nietzsche, Christianity is responsible for spawinging this perverbial anomany; it allows the weak to take revenge on the strong by wallowing in their misery.

try a little experiment, Take a pencil and hold it at the center between your fingers and move one end up and the other down. Notice that if one end goes up the other goes down. This is IF and THEN; between them is the shaft of the pencil, which is AND. The movement of the pencil is a moving syllogism. It is the beginning of the infinity of causal relationships which Spinoza considers. It is also a lever, the fundamental machine, the basis of the mechanical nature of the universe. It is also the principal of economics; let yourself think of the balance for trade and you will see. Money on one side and goods on the other. If the fulcrum is in the center, the match is even; if the fulcrum is nearer one end, mechanical advantage and economic advantage can be seen and understood. It is also the principle of justice.
It is the breaking of the balance, the breaking of the visualized relationship between cause and effect which is the essence of Christianity. Nietzsche opposed Christianity not because it anulled visualizing the mechanical relationship between cause and effect, but rather because it changes the meaning of the word "meek" to be what it has come to mean in the expressionin "The meek shall enherit the earth" rather than the Old Testament meaning of "logical". Moses, the author of logic in the Bible was said to be the meekest man who ever lived. "Meek" in Judaism meant subordinate to God, not subordinate to other humans. God in the Old Testament shows himself in balance, so Moses is the lawgiver of logic, not humility before other men and his people before other peoples. Nietzsche says "Fight! Do not work" and he means create from nothing, do not move around things already created. "I love that which creates something greater than itself and dies," says Nietzsche. The human mind independent of the rule that governs the universe and not timid before others--this is what Nietzsche meens by "The Will to Power".
 craww
Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 10
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 7:50:40 PM
easy going,

thank you for all the truths......... i am learning a lot.
someone i love though...... is a repeat offender.......and so, i have to deal with it.
i have to distance myself, right?
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 11
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History
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 9:12:22 PM
Good answer Ray. I think there is something almost supernatural about forgiveness. If you are willing to forgive it seems that God can make the willingness into reality. If that makes sense.

Personally I am in awe when I see someone on TV whose child has been murdered and they are forgiving the man who did it. It has to be God. That is the only reason I can think of for someone able to do that.
 ezgoinguy
Joined: 12/7/2004
Msg: 12
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/12/2005 9:21:40 PM
The ability to discern between principle and personality is important to me. Just as there is no more life in an elephant then there is in a flea, there is good in all people. Some this may be very minimal bit there is still some good and i have to regonize that. If I focus entirely on the negative then I will begin to be very judgemental. Those that have hurt me and those I love can never do or say anything that could ever reverse the pain that was caused by their actions. Also, no matter how much hate or anger I have will never change the circumstance, that can only fuel the fire that will in all actuality, consume me. What I truly need to do is move on and not hold resentment, I truly believe that resentment causes a lot of physical health problems along with being very detrimental to mental and spiritual well being. One problem i had i wrote out on a piece of paper and everyday I tore a small piece of the paper off and throw it away. When it got near the end, where i may of had two or three more tears before it was thrown away, I couldn't find the remainder of the hat piece of paper. I felt a lot of relief and did feel some closure. While i wrote about the things that disturbed me, I felt good about getting them out, that experience showed me that if i really want closure, it is truly up to me. Those that live with the fact that they have done something that has had terrible consquences on others, live in a lot of pain, I had to realize that too. I had to realize that they had a conscience nd had a debt to pay for what they did but i did not have to punish myself for what they did by holding resentment and making myself sick and at odds with the world. I realize that "Everything is the way it should be" and that "Everything is alright, right now". That when something or someone leaves me, life has a way of finding me again right where I was, before it was there.

Reading the works of Ralph Waldo Emerson and other's who were philosophers in times gone by, I find some peace and I can learn. My life is about learning today and a big part of the learning is about learning about myself. Everyday I try to be a better then i was the day before as that to me is personal growth and if I am carrying resentment, anger, rage or pain from past injustices, I am not advancing, I am either standing still or going backwards.

We all have the capacity to forgive and to forget but the trouble is, do we truly want to.
 taurus516
Joined: 11/3/2004
Msg: 13
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History
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/13/2005 1:58:13 PM
Forgiveness is all about and for the person who has been wronged.If someone wronged you and you spend alot of time bitter and trying to get even,then you are not "over" the wrong.If you let it go and go on about your life,forgiving the person who wronged you,then you are on your way to getting "over" the wrong and healing.Doesn't mean you should trust the person again,just don't need to fashion dolls in their image and stick pins it.Though that is fun!
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 14
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History
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/13/2005 8:45:58 PM
In the early 80s, a woman in Texas named Karla Faye Tucker found her boyfriend (husband?) in bed with another woman. Karla killed both of them with a pick-ax. She was tried and given the death sentence. These things are not speedy and over the course of time, Karla became a Christian. Her life changed so much over time that people could not believe it was the same woman. The day of her to be put to death approached and everyone from Prison Social workers to the Pope pleaded with Texas Governor George W. Bush to not put her to death. Gov. Bush not only turned a deaf ear on those pleading her case but actually mocked the woman on a radio show. At any rate, the day arrived and the cuckold husband of the woman that Karla had killed told everyone that it was the happiest day of his life to watch Karla be put to death. He said he was going to celebrate afterwards. The sentence was carried out and Karla died. One observer noted that she did not know if Karla was in heaven but she knew someone who would not be unless their attitude changed.
 craww
Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 15
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/14/2005 11:54:00 AM
rd,
that gets into a can of worms.
when someone is on death row, and the only way out is a pardon or something because of exemplary behavior, the smart ones who want to live know what to do.

same with movie stars....... some of the most intelligent people on the face of the earth become movie stars........ they know about the big money to act like someone else, and so they go after it.......... in the movie, they look real, all the emotions look real, and we sit there and cry or laugh, as they suck us into the story.

if she found god, then she found peace, and knows that death is not the end, and maybe she deserves it in this life......... i am not the judge of it all, that's for sure.

i live down the street from a ''fist step'' housing for new jail releases....... often i talk to them, as they walk by, and i get on the subject of god....... i even invite them in for a barbeque......... some of the biggest snakes can talk about god like angels or something, and they look so sweet and innocent.
then, they try to set me up, to rob me....they can't tell i'm wise to them, and the steps for the set-up start piling up till it's crystal clear........ i've been through it a lot, i am wise to spotting it.
they learn the game, and keep getting better at not getting caught........ it has nothing to do with repenting.
 jimyg
Joined: 1/6/2005
Msg: 16
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/14/2005 8:55:15 PM
Well,
All things are possible for God, and all things are possible for them that believe, do you know
JESUS?
You believe in your heart and confess with your mouth. confess the sin or condition which is unforgiveness, and bitterness, abandonment probably, rejection for sure.
and then speak out your forgiveness out loud.
I can help you with it if you need help!
have a nice day,
Jimmy
 jclaus
Joined: 3/3/2005
Msg: 17
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/15/2005 6:58:55 AM
It is hard to forgive someone for such hanace crimes, but it can be done. Prayer can help us to forgive. We don't forget though. Just because we forgive doesn't mean we have to like the person. We have to forgive others so God will forgive us when we sin. It is hard to forgive somebody who isn't sorry.
 reeferjones
Joined: 2/12/2005
Msg: 18
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/16/2005 3:34:42 AM
how about just have faith in that GOD will cast the judgements and forgiveness should be easy once you understand that THEY are the ones who need GOD to forgive them and not you...you forgive THEM so YOU can move on..not so THEY can feel better about raping you as if it was ok
 raaburt
Joined: 3/8/2005
Msg: 19
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History
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/18/2005 3:41:31 PM
when God forgives us for our wrongs: he no longer hold us guilty but clean from the wrong. we are no longer to be held accountable for the wrong. and we are no longer out of his good graces. but we are once again exceptable in His eyes.
the bible gives parables with regard to monetary debts and how one is oweing another a sum of money without the means to pay back. and in mercy the one who is owed the sum of money wipes the debt off the books and thereby the debtor now longer owes him anything.
a zeroing or nulling of that which is owed.
 Moutro
Joined: 4/16/2005
Msg: 20
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/18/2005 6:27:57 PM
ok now its not difficult unless of course u have experienced any of these abnormalities god is powerful and his course has planned out everyones out come its your decision on what to feel and how to react dont misunderstand the scriptures its your choice good or bad there are synopsis.....if u need to talk give me an email ill return your questions or answers ,bye be well and try to do good on others like you would one like to do good on you and let the nature of god take its course.........bye
 korky
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 21
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/18/2005 9:27:49 PM
I like your examples "ezgoinguy" theres a lot of meaning to what you said.
Forgiveness is a hard thing to do when a lady is raped, abused or sombody killed for no reason. My answer may not mean anything to the lady with the question, but please ask yourself, "what will be my benefit by holding on to this pain" You see we choose to keep playing this over and over in our minds until we can't take it anymore---- then what happens is our immune system breaks down and suddenly we have serious health problems, so my suggestion is, form you own group, become a speaker and share your pain with others so that you can help them deal with their pain and your own. You can forgive when you choose to do so but the memory will always be there. Accept that this awful thing happened to you and believe that your faith in God will help you through it. You could read the book of JOB and see how he kept his faith with all his torment. Also read Mark, eleven, verse 22 to 25 and this will give everybody strength. QUOTE: "Whatever you want in life----Pray for it--- Believe you have it----and it will be yours".
 longte
Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 22
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/19/2005 3:18:33 AM
Forgivness

Lots of words spoken about it

I lost my soulmate because of what happened to her as a child

I will Never Forgive the people who caused me to lose her

I can live with it
I have dealt with it

I do not feel that FORGIVING them is an option in any way

I don't really Hate them any more

But I will not Forgive them

And all in all I am Very Happy with the Person I have Become
 random4
Joined: 4/11/2005
Msg: 23
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/19/2005 3:12:01 PM
My view is that forgiveness is by understanding the story of what happened without it being you're the victim. So let's say some rampaging doorknob of a human clusterfk either targets you with mayhem or carelessly upsets your apple cart. There is damage done, pain, expense, maybe humiliation. You have an initial response, in addition to suffering the impact, in your thoughts and feelings. It is anger, outrage, indignation, pain, sorrow, whatever bad things you feel. It can get into your head and make you scared and depressed, or walking wounded. After that initial confusion and excitement, there comes the rest of your life, and what do you want to do?

Forgiving the person is when you tell yourself the story so that the responsibility for what they did is with them, right where it should be. You come to see that your only role was as what they damaged. You get to see that the damage heals. You see that you have to choose between a life-long grudge, and putting it behind you. The way you disengage from that person is to forgive them. Forgiveness just means that you end the thoughts you're having about them that keep you upset and living in the past. You give up your hate and resentment and even blame. You stop hating, and that makes your day better. You come out from resentment, and that makes your day better. You quit spending time blaming them, and that frees your day for other things, better thoughts and feelings.

Forgiveness isn't when you say what they did is OK, or that they are not a doorknob. It's when you write it off and move on. It's about changing how you think of them, so you don't have to anymore. That is how it works.

If you need them to right the wrong, they never will, so it's up to you feel better without their help, and the way you start is forgiveness
 korky
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 24
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/19/2005 5:31:50 PM
good advice random4
 cat_in_hat
Joined: 1/11/2005
Msg: 25
FORGIVENESS how does it work
Posted: 4/19/2005 6:05:51 PM
forgiveness works very carefully. it's a very hard process to do, for some people.
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