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 Author Thread: What is TIME ??
 Mr H2O

Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 1
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/22/2007 6:46:49 PM
One of the most peculiar qualities of time is the fact that it is measured by motion.

We continually follow time and yet it constantly passes us.

Most cultures have a grammar with past and future tenses
but no words can exactly explain what time is

Time is of your own making; its clock ticks in your head.
The moment you stop thought; time too stops dead.

Is time just another form of energy that has yet to be clearly defined ?
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 2
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/22/2007 6:57:46 PM
Time is an illusion.

A perceptual artifact of our inability to operate in/percieve the full dimensional structure of the universe.
 sombient

Joined: 2/7/2007
Msg: 3
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/22/2007 8:14:41 PM
Well sir, time is a relative marker of change. Change in position or location, change in function, change in capacity, etc.

Time isn't life, but life marks time. Most of you probably don't realize just how precisely.

Our cells have little miniature clocks, in the form of a repeating tick-tock proteins that are copied and counted off like worry-beads on a rope. At precisely a certain number of copies, cellular division rumbles through its regular process, and the cell divides, replacing itself with astonishing regularity.

The life of a cell is all about growing and dividing at the right time. That is why the cell cycle is one of the most tightly regulated cellular processes known. A control system with several layers adjusts when key components of the cell cycle machinery are produced, activated and degraded to make sure that the schedule is kept.

Cells have been following these same tightly conserved internal clocks for a little over a billion years. Their development probably took another billion or so, in the most ancient protobacteria, the Cyanobacteria, which first appeared about 2.1 billion years ago.

http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4504.html

In humans, individual cellular clocks in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), the circadian center, are integrated into a stable and robust pacemaker with a period of 23-24 hours.

These two clocks, cell division and circadian cycle clocks, are carefully coordinated in action. Recent studies of these timer processes linked dysfunction of the clockwork with the pathogenesis of cancer. Disruption of circadian timing (as occurs in jet-lag, shift work and dementia) thus has far reaching consequences for normal regulation of cell division.

So, the solar cycle is a key unitary measure of cycles in cells, and has been for a long, long time - well before the first multicellular lifeforms arose in mineral rich sediments.

Its mankind that took this basic unitary measure and constructed systematic pace-keeper function in the numbering and segregation of 24 hour solar cycles into weeks, months, seasons and seasonal cycles (years).
 sum1reel

Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 4
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/22/2007 9:29:35 PM
TIME is not its own entity......it is now refered to as "space-time"....this is because time & space are inherently linked......you cannot have one without the other, thus they are said to be one and the same!..............the flow of TIME is no illusion!....i believe that it has been established that time flows in quantum packets.
 sombient

Joined: 2/7/2007
Msg: 5
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/22/2007 9:40:39 PM

it has been established that time flows in quantum packets



Ahh yes, that brings us to the precise definition of the second, established by use of the atomic clock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock


Since 1967, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as the duration of 9 192 631 770 cycles of the radiation which corresponds to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom. This definition makes the cesium oscillator (often called an atomic clock) the primary standard for time and frequency measurements (see caesium standard). Other physical quantities, like the volt and metre, rely on the definition of the second as part of their own definitions.

The core of the atomic clock is a tuneable microwave cavity containing the gas. In a hydrogen maser clock the gas emits microwaves (mases) on a hyperfine transition, the field in the cavity oscillates, and the cavity is tuned for maximum microwave amplitude. Alternatively, in a cesium or rubidium clock, the gas absorbs microwaves and the cavity contains an electronic amplifier to make it oscillate. For both types the atoms in the gas are prepared in one electronic state prior to filling them into the cavity. For the second type the electronic state of leaking atoms is detected and the cavity is tuned for a maximum of detected state changes.

This adjustment process is where most of the work and complexity of the clock lies. The adjustment tries to correct for unwanted side-effects, such as frequencies from other electron transitions, temperature changes, and the "spreading" in frequencies caused by ensemble effects. One way of doing this is to sweep the microwave oscillator's frequency across a narrow range to generate a modulated signal at the detector. The detector's signal can then be demodulated to apply feedback to control long-term drift in the radio frequency. In this way, the quantum-mechanical properties of the atomic transition frequency of the caesium can be used to tune the microwave oscillator to the same frequency, except for a small amount of experimental error. When a clock is first turned on, it takes a while for the oscillator to stabilize.

In practice, the feedback and monitoring mechanism is much more complex than described above.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 6
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/23/2007 2:28:49 PM

the flow of TIME is no illusion!

Ah, but it is. Especially the notion of the uni-directional flow of time (from past to present).

To see this point I would suggest perusing John A. Wheeler's proposed "delayed choice" thought experiment. It very neatly illustrates the bi-directional flow of time by up-ending the idea of cause preceding effect (as empirically verified by the "delayed choice" variation of the classic 'two-slit experiment').

The most logical explanation for this is that time, as percieved in 4d space-time (where we exist), must exist as a fixed physical dimension (same as the 3 fixed physical dimensions we percieve) in a >4d space-time. This requires the conclusion that, what we experience as time in 4d space-time, is actually an 'illusion' or artifact due to our inability to experience >4d space-time.

The Wheeler thought experiment isn't the only support for the idea that time, as experienced in 4d space-time, is an artifact or illusory but it is a good place to start.
 JerryInTampa

Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 7
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/23/2007 3:19:32 PM

Ah, but it is. Especially the notion of the uni-directional flow of time (from past to present).
Movement backwards would be possible under one of two conditions: 1) Have greater than infinate power to accellerate. 2) leave the universe.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 8
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/23/2007 4:45:43 PM

Movement backwards would be possible under one of two conditions: 1) Have greater than infinate power to accellerate.

This is the natural conclusion from relativity although there are current theories that dispute this to one degree or another (VSL or Variable Speed of Light would be one).

2) leave the universe.

Put this way, it seems impossible but this ignores any higher than a 4d dimensional structure for the universe. This is a point which is not without significant disagreement. Relativity itself requires a universe with a greater than 4d structure and quantum theory extends that idea further. More properly put, one must leave 4d space-time and enter a >4d space-time. Even that is not necessarily true, which is why I referenced John Wheeler's "delayed choice" thought experiment (again, the concept of which has been empiricaly verified) that demonstrates bi-directional flow across time (from past to present and present to past)

I'll include part of a write up of his idea so that people don't have to try to find it for themselves.

Wheeler's hunch is that the universe is built like an enormous feedback loop, a loop in which we contribute to the ongoing creation of not just the present and the future but the past as well. To illustrate his idea, he devised what he calls his "delayed-choice experiment," which adds a startling, cosmic variation to a cornerstone of quantum physics: the two-slit experiment.

That experiment is exceedingly strange in its own right, even without Wheeler's extra kink thrown in. It illustrates a key principle of quantum mechanics: Light has a dual nature. Sometimes light behaves like a compact particle, a photon; sometimes it seems to behave like a wave spread out in space, just like the ripples in a pond. In the experiment, light— a stream of photons— shines through two parallel slits and hits a strip of photographic film behind the slits. The experiment can be run two ways: with photon detectors right beside each slit that allow physicists to observe the photons as they pass, or with detectors removed, which allows the photons to travel unobserved. When physicists use the photon detectors, the result is unsurprising: Every photon is observed to pass through one slit or the other. The photons, in other words, act like particles.

But when the photon detectors are removed, something weird occurs. One would expect to see two distinct clusters of dots on the film, corresponding to where individual photons hit after randomly passing through one slit or the other. Instead, a pattern of alternating light and dark stripes appears. Such a pattern could be produced only if the photons are behaving like waves, with each individual photon spreading out and surging against both slits at once, like a breaker hitting a jetty. Alternating bright stripes in the pattern on the film show where crests from those waves overlap; dark stripes indicate that a crest and a trough have canceled each other.

The outcome of the experiment depends on what the physicists try to measure: If they set up detectors beside the slits, the photons act like ordinary particles, always traversing one route or the other, not both at the same time. In that case the striped pattern doesn't appear on the film. But if the physicists remove the detectors, each photon seems to travel both routes simultaneously like a tiny wave, producing the striped pattern.

Wheeler has come up with a cosmic-scale version of this experiment that has even weirder implications. Where the classic experiment demonstrates that physicists' observations determine the behavior of a photon in the present, Wheeler's version shows that our observations in the present can affect how a photon behaved in the past.

To demonstrate, he sketches a diagram on a scrap of paper. Imagine, he says, a quasar— a very luminous and very remote young galaxy. Now imagine that there are two other large galaxies between Earth and the quasar. The gravity from massive objects like galaxies can bend light, just as conventional glass lenses do. In Wheeler's experiment the two huge galaxies substitute for the pair of slits; the quasar is the light source. Just as in the two-slit experiment, light— photons— from the quasar can follow two different paths, past one galaxy or the other.

Suppose that on Earth, some astronomers decide to observe the quasars. In this case a telescope plays the role of the photon detector in the two-slit experiment. If the astronomers point a telescope in the direction of one of the two intervening galaxies, they will see photons from the quasar that were deflected by that galaxy; they would get the same result by looking at the other galaxy. But the astronomers could also mimic the second part of the two-slit experiment. By carefully arranging mirrors, they could make photons arriving from the routes around both galaxies strike a piece of photographic film simultaneously. Alternating light and dark bands would appear on the film, identical to the pattern found when photons passed through the two slits.

Here's the odd part. The quasar could be very distant from Earth, with light so faint that its photons hit the piece of film only one at a time. But the results of the experiment wouldn't change. The striped pattern would still show up, meaning that a lone photon not observed by the telescope traveled both paths toward Earth, even if those paths were separated by many light-years. And that's not all.

By the time the astronomers decide which measurement to make— whether to pin down the photon to one definite route or to have it follow both paths simultaneously— the photon could have already journeyed for billions of years, long before life appeared on Earth. The measurements made now, says Wheeler, determine the photon's past. In one case the astronomers create a past in which a photon took both possible routes from the quasar to Earth. Alternatively, they retroactively force the photon onto one straight trail toward their detector, even though the photon began its jaunt long before any detectors existed.

It would be tempting to dismiss Wheeler's thought experiment as a curious idea, except for one thing: It has been demonstrated in a laboratory. In 1984 physicists at the University of Maryland set up a tabletop version of the delayed-choice scenario. Using a light source and an arrangement of mirrors to provide a number of possible photon routes, the physicists were able to show that the paths the photons took were not fixed until the physicists made their measurements, even though those measurements were made after the photons had already left the light source and begun their circuit through the course of mirrors.

For those not familiar with Wheeler, he is the preeminent American physicist of today. A contemporary of Bohr and Einstein (with both of whom he collaborated) as well as Fermi, he trained men like Feynman and Thorne, he worked on Manhattan and Matterhorn and created the terms "wormhole" and "black hole".
 Mr H2O

Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 9
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/23/2007 9:12:46 PM
Some people think better with visual references - geometry often helps .

Tesseract or TetraCube or Octachoron or HyperCube they are all very similiar

These are 4 dimensional analogs of the standard 3 dimensional cube

- Time may be thought of motion along the 4th dimension of these geometrical figures.


If all molecular motion stops for a universe at absolute zero
--will time still exist within that universe ?
--how would you measure it within that universe ?
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 10
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/24/2007 1:08:02 PM

Some people think better with visual references - geometry often helps .

Tesseract or TetraCube or Octachoron or HyperCube they are all very similiar

These are 4 dimensional analogs of the standard 3 dimensional cube

- Time may be thought of motion along the 4th dimension of these geometrical figures.

Much of the description in Abbott's "Flatland" can also serve well in helping to visualize the concept of time as motion across a "higher" dimension.

Since almost everyone is good at identifying 2 and 3 dimensional objects it makes it much easier to conceptualize/visualize the idea of time as motion. Most can easily visualize how changes in 2d objects across time can be combined to create a static 3d object when each separate moment in 2d time are displayed consecutively on a fixed physical dimension.

Viewed from this perspective it becomes clear how time in "x" dimensional space-time can be seen as motion across the additional physical dimension in "x+1" dimensional space-time. It then becomes easy to see how time observed in "x" physical dimensions is an artifact or illusion due to our inability to directly perceive "x+1" physical dimensions.
 rake_

Joined: 7/16/2006
Msg: 11
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/24/2007 2:09:00 PM
If all molecular motion stops for a universe at absolute zero
--will time still exist within that universe ?
--how would you measure it within that universe ?


As long as there is even a single particle in the universe it is impossible to attain a perfect vaccumm state because that particle also exists as a probability wave extending throughout the universe with a non-zero value in any volume of space. In this universe with a single particle the passing of time would serve as a relative reference for the order events associated with that particle. One might argue that with nothing to measure the particle, then it would never be compelled to assume a discrete momentum and position measurable as an event, but its the particle nature of light that makes time relevant. In a universe with not even a single particle then time becomes irrelevant because events are only observations and if there is nothing to observe then they are irrelevant.
 Mr H2O

Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 12
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/24/2007 2:29:10 PM
message 11

Sorry - can't have it both ways in my book. Choices have to be made.

1.) The electron is a solid little energy particle located in a particular spot,
and it ain't moving because it's frozen solid.

OR

2.) When not being measured (located) it takes the form of a field or wave of probable locations. Can a wave be frozen so it doesn't move......hmmmmm.

" its the particle nature of light that makes time relevant" I'm not so sure of this statement

- What if the particle in my "thought experiment" isn't a light particle at all ???

It's extremely intriguing to me , thinking of a place where time is irrelevant,
where nothing happens, complete nothingness.
 deagleninja

Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 13
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/24/2007 2:41:32 PM
IMHO, time is the measurement of the advancement of entropy.
 rake_

Joined: 7/16/2006
Msg: 14
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/24/2007 4:55:10 PM
1.) The electron is a solid little energy particle located in a particular spot,
and it ain't moving because it's frozen solid.


yes but there is always quantum fluctuation. Therefore complete cessation of motion is not even theoretically possible.


2.) When not being measured (located) it takes the form of a field or wave of probable locations. Can a wave be frozen so it doesn't move......hmmmmm.


A field is a mathematical concept that describes the force(s) that would be applied on matter at any point in space. A field is also subject to quantum fluctuations. So there will always be zero point motion.


" its the particle nature of light that makes time relevant" I'm not so sure of this statement


sorry, i meant to say that every particle, including light, behave both as waves and particles.

In theory if all motion completely stopped then time would as you suggest have no meaning at all. However, at a quantum level it is impossible to reduce motion to total zero.
 Mr H2O

Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 15
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/27/2007 3:08:28 AM
message 13

Perhaps it is possible - it all depends on the defining equation :

Entropy is a quantitative entity, and not a qualitative one.
That means that entropy is not something that is fundamentally intuitive,
but something that is fundamentally defined via an equation, via mathematics applied to physics.

Entropy is what the equations define it to be.
There is no such thing as an "entropy", without an equation that defines it.
 sombient

Joined: 2/7/2007
Msg: 16
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/27/2007 10:13:25 AM
^^ Followup to the OPs last post.

See: http://www.tim-thompson.com/entropy1.html
 box within a box

Joined: 4/17/2005
Msg: 17
What is TIME ??
Posted: 2/27/2007 5:18:34 PM
And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking

And racing around to come up behind you again

The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older

Shorter of breath and one day closer to death
 Art Vandolay

Joined: 2/28/2007
Msg: 18
What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/3/2007 7:52:06 AM
Time is a four letter word.

Time is a perception, your perception in this case. I firmly believe that if one can alter their perceptions on other aspects of existence, then why not time. Of course if you are referring to the round device on my wall with numbers, then time is just a construct created by humans to help organize (they think) their lives.

However saying that time passes us isn't entirely true, the only thing that exists is the 'right now' (which is technically now the past). I think it's more like a CD in a CD player. The laser being 'time/right now' when it hits the disk life exists. Therefore, time and 'us' run at exactly the same rate, and could even be one in the same.

Well thats just some of my input, time is a fun concept. Controlling it, just as much fun. (I don't mean I can go to the future or past) more like, time flies when your having fun. I've got a bit of control on how I perceive time. I wish I could move the hands on the clocks, well without using my fingers.
 e-wok

Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 19
What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/3/2007 8:24:31 AM

Is it like this: before the 'big bang' time did not exist? Matter = time? So then in
a part of deep space where light and matter have yet to reach, is that
plane just a non-existent place? Or does time come into existance everywhere
throughout the univererse even though the big bangs energy is yet be
occupy that part of space. Hope that made sense.
 sancho!

Joined: 1/10/2007
Msg: 20
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/3/2007 8:41:06 AM

Time is a perception, your perception in this case. I firmly believe that if one can alter their perceptions on other aspects of existence, then why not time. Of course if you are referring to the round device on my wall with numbers, then time is just a construct created by humans to help organize (they think) their lives.



well stated art vandolay. i completely agree. "the only thing that is true is that which is perceived to be true." one of the first rules of politics i learned but it is applicable to a wide variety.
 sombient

Joined: 2/7/2007
Msg: 21
What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/3/2007 9:06:08 AM

Therefore, time and 'us' run at exactly the same rate, and could even be one in the same.


We perceived our environment by sensory stimulation and sensory input processing.

Thats is a 'streaming' event, its happens constantly. Because its also distracting, and some data also catches our attention and causes us to ignore other data inputs, we manage this streaming input. We have to, or our perception would be *even more jerky* (stop/start = ignore/focus on specific inputs) than it is for most of us.

What happens is that we process this stream nightly, mostly without being conscious of it, unless we are dreaming. If we are dreaming, we are semi-consciously 'sitting in' on that data stream sorting and processing. Our busy minds then cast about for meaning for which to attach this data that we have focused on, even in shallow sleep.

Thats how we can remember fragments of that dreamt data stream processing.

Because we need relative markers to temporally demarcate (attach time and location information to important data stream events), very early on in human brain evolution, we began to use solar cycles. The need to account for many ndividuals in social gathers or for relative comparison of resource abundance probably drove the next important development: counting.

That resulted in very early methods of tracking the passing of the solar cycles as 'days'. Noting the change in the suns relative position each day could be easily conducted by using a stationary stick or tree and watching the progression of its shadow arc over the course of day: the subunit of 'hours'.

You see, with higher thought processes, in order to keep the brain from spinning endlessly in its attempt to track and note life preserving events - we needed markers for temporal relevance: time.

Its a conceptual construct necessary for healthy human brain function.
 sombient

Joined: 2/7/2007
Msg: 22
What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/3/2007 9:12:10 AM
Might as well point out the concept of Zen practice: paying attention to that stream of consciousness and not letting out minds be caught up in an over-edited internal perception of our environment, the people we interact with and individual "mental scripts".

What does this do?

It affords a more healthy mechanism of respectful, detached empathy with our world. I prevents us from attaching wrongful importance to certain events by forcing us to step outside of our personal historical programming (limited experience) when assessing an event.

It also helps us to reduce the stress of trying to track all that occurs about us by keeping our brains from spinning in cyclic thoughts - this is very unproductive brain activity.

Make sense?

Meditation: the Art of Selfless Purposeful Thought Processing.
 Random Entry

Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 23
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/4/2007 4:00:01 AM
Time is a tool invented by humankind in order to be able to communicate to other fellow human beings about the nature of how other events occured and how we desire future events to occur. Time exists only in our intellect.

It is also another tool to help humankind become more humancentric rather than be truly awake.
 JerryInTampa

Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 24
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/4/2007 4:21:12 AM
For those who are asserting that time is a perception or invention... please explain relativity. Why does time pass slower when you are moving faster or in higher gravity? Why do clocks on GPS satilites fall out-of-sync with ground-based clocks?
 Random Entry

Joined: 12/30/2006
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What is TIME ??
Posted: 3/4/2007 4:35:38 AM

Why does time pass slower when you are moving faster or in higher gravity?


You are misusing the word. Time does not change but rather the rate at which you perceive the events does.

Time is more like a dressmaker's flexible tape measure. Just because it can be crunched up and appear to give different measurements, like your mention of GPS satilites{sic} and ground based clocks, it does not mean anything beyond your perception has changed.

You modified your tool, just like crunching up the dressmakers flexible tape measure, that's all. (assuming the numbers on it were so called "marks in time" or "time measurements" rather than length or width)
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