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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 7:39:18 AM | I have often seen mentioned in here, that people without a religion have no morals.
In threads on sex, anyone who is not of a certain religion is often asociated with a rapist, as if not being religious makes you imoral.
In the Creation/Evolution debate, the question often arises of, if we are all just animals, then we must have no morals.
It rears its ugly head in many threads and anoyes me every time I see it. I myself am religious (Though not Christian). but I resent the inferance that my moral code comes purely from my religious ethics. Saying so is not crediting the human race with the dignity it deserves.
So my question is, Do people without a religion, truely have no morals?
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 7:48:40 AM | I am not a religious person ... but I definitely have morals by which I live my life.
Of course one can have values & morals without being religious. As human beings it is possible to think for our self instead of having our morals dictated by religion which, in many cases, can constrict said morals. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 7:56:16 AM | My personal opinion on the matter is that it takes a 'religion' to truly cloud the issue of moral ethics.
Morals and ethics are tools your parents instill in you as a gift while you're young.
A church has nothing to do with it IMO.
Ever heard anything about pedophilia and priests in the news?
Where's the morality in that?!
I don't want to paint them all with the same brush, but the damage has already been done.
Just saying. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 8:37:03 AM |
Do people without a religion, truely have no morals?
Yes they do have morals!
End of question.
There is not a doubt in my mind that people are capable of being moral, having values and holding to convictions outside the confines of a religion.
if we are all just animals, then we must have no morals.
I dont think this is the case at all. I don't see a bunch of wolves hunting other wolves or a bunch or crocodiles eating other crocodiles as ways to survive. It's counter productive and only causes harm to the "whole" and then the "individual".
The point is that, if we are just a bunch of monkeys with big brains, then it may only mean that our morals are not divine, but they are there nonetheless.
Think about why it's important that you shouldn't just start doing whatever it is that feel like doing at the expense of others. One thing may be that someone may do the same thing to you and then it would be a "bad" thing...because it was happening to you. Bounce that idea around everyone else and you'll see that most people will just keep to themselves, not wanting to risk retribution. In short...don't harm me and I won't harm you.
Turn that around to why you should do something "good". While yes there may be reward, there is the idea of promoting what is around you. If you can only be as high as the tallest hill, then you're going to eventually realize that you need to build a bigger hill. If I want to be around people who are fond of me and will be more likely to assist me in endeavors, then I need to work and show that I'm willing to do the same. I need to work on it till I surround myself with people of similar goals and mentalities. I'll help you if you help me. Charity may seem to be outside this, but it's not. Doing something nice for others, even if it doesn't make you "feel" good, does improve your surroundings and make your hill a little higher. Same idea as I help you, you help me, but far more sublte and long term.
I think "morals" are more complicated than just a mere instinct and if you look to nature you will find similarities to "morals" everywhere. We as people just happen to be more aware of why we do something...this doesn't mean that animals aren't aware of why they do things, just that people have a better ability to introspect
I think it is also important to pose a question to those who say non-religious people have no morals.
Would these same people who question the morals of others become animalistic degenerates if they found out their Holy Book was a sham, their prophet was a lunatic, and their God is only their imaginary friend?
What does that say about them?
It rears its ugly head in many threads and anoyes me every time I see it.
It should annoy you and you should consider it ugly. These are the same people who tell you that you are incapable of choosing to act in the best interest of yourself and others. More imporantly is that these are the same people that are telling you that your morals mean nothing because they aren't founded in the right place. In short all these people are doing is discrediting your very existence by saying that what you feel is "right" doesn't count. Funny how they are quick to count your opinion when it agrees with their's and especially when it is something that EVERYONE feels is wrong. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 8:44:40 AM | I've said this before... morality is subjective. We all have laws to live by and we are subject to those laws. Apart from that, some of us have a conscience to live by - this is my moral guideline. I know instinctively when something is right and when something is wrong, even though I'm not a perfect specimen, by any stretch of the imagination. Then we have the religious aspect of morality - those that define God's rule of law. Thus, Re: "Free Will, Can it Really be Free?" If you consider the "Free will" aspect, we ARE free to choose, but, say the scriptures, you'd better take care to follow God's guide lines in the process - suddenly Free will doesn't sound so free does it?
So, yes... morals without religion are self-evident. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 8:47:45 AM | OMG!!
I for one need no book or priest to tell me what is right and wrong...
Can people not feel that in their heart?
All it takes is the strength and conviction to listen to and follow your heart..
In fact I feel sorry for people who listen when they are told what their moral code should be. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 8:55:28 AM | If anything, life has taught me that the more religious a person is, the less they can be trusted.
They have to have an outside source to tell them what is right and wrong, because they have no clue. They do not have the strength within themselves to stand up and live the way they need to on their own just because that is the right thing to do. They need that crutch, that back-door.
Religious, to me, equals weak, insecure, and shallow. Certainly not MORAL! Will they do the right thing, possibly. But if not they can & always say that "I am forgiven", they are "only human".
Just an old Jar-Head,
Quist | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 8:59:47 AM | So my question is, Do people without a religion, truely have no morals?
Some do, some don't. Of course I also know people who have religion...without morals.
Personally I don't think religion defines morality. Morality is subjective to start with. I consider myself to have morals, and I'm not religious. To expand on it further tho.... I'm sure most christians would view sex before marriage as immoral, whereas I don't. So to a christian I may not have any morals...but I beleive I do...hence the subjective part 
I've said this before... morality is subjective.
Geez sky..took the words out of my mouth! . | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 9:08:32 AM | They have to have an outside source to tell them what is right and wrong, because they have no clue. They do not have the strength within themselves to stand up and live the way they need to on their own just because that is the right thing to do. They need that crutch, that back-door.
Hmmm...I have a problem agreeing with the entirety of this post but I do agree that people use religion as a crutch.
I know some folks that would actually be LOST without religion.
It's how they define themselves.
..sad really..IMO | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 9:53:40 AM | I've been reborn and a christian for about 5% of my life. The other 95% percent I was anything but according to the suggested christian outlook. I still had morals during that time but they were different from the ones I carry with me today.
I think the same can be said for many people. And I'm not just talking about people who come to christ late in life. I think our character and the attached morals evolve or devolve throughout our life.
I know people from the streets who subscribe to no religion and have what I consider to be high moral standards. And conversely there are life time christians that lack basic scrupples.
Morals are not limited to any race, sex or religion.
Regarding the forums and threads I don't think a lot of the comments the OP refers to are the result of religious people responding to anothers faith or their nonfaith. Some no doubt are but not all. Many rude comments and acusations are tossed around inside these forums. And people have long memories when it comes to a slight or an insult, even if it's not directed at them personally. A person may read a comment written on a thread some time ago and pigeon hole the author into a category based on that one comment. Unfortunately, once pegged as a particular type of person it can be difficult to change that perspective. So I guess my point would be, how much of the problem do we ourselfs have to own in regards to how others view us? Is it really as much to do with religion and faith as you think or is it simply conflict of personality? | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 10:08:52 AM | Man is a social animal. It doesn't need books for morals.
Some people feel better about themselves by demonizing others. Those people who are truly interested in morals should begin by looking for immorality within themselves, not others.
As an atheist, when I do good deeds it is because it is in my nature to do so, not because I believe in being rewarded in the afterlife.
Being associated with a religion does little to improve your moral nature. Religous types often believe that their religion is the right one, and all others are wrong. Some branches of christianity believe their interpretation of the bible is the right one, and anyone who interprets otherwise is wrong. Such bigotry is most definately immoral. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 1:28:06 PM | There are some people without religion who have no morals, just like there are people who attend church weekly and read the bible often and they have no morals either.
Athiests, agnostics and other bible skeptics are by and large very decent law abiding citizens who are just as honest as the next guy.
People are born with a sense of right and wrong and it has nothing to do with any book or some kind of imagined god. Some adjust their behaviour to their conscience, and some don't.
I have heard bible thumpers say that it's god and the bible which gives you morality. Well, prove it. And by that reasoning then someone who has had no exposure to the bible would be morally reprehensible and it is easily not true.
So to answer your question.....Yes, you can have morals without religion. And quite easily in fact. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/5/2007 2:30:21 PM | SteveHD
this doesn't mean that animals aren't aware of why they do things, just that people have a better ability to introspect.
Nicely Put.
In short all these people are doing is discrediting your very existence by saying that what you feel is "right" doesn't count.
Do you belive this is a deliberate act of character asassintaion or a covert attempt to beguile others to thier point of view?
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skypoetone
Thus, Re: "Free Will, Can it Really be Free?" If you consider the "Free will" aspect, we ARE free to choose, but, say the scriptures, you'd better take care to follow God's guide lines in the process - suddenly Free will doesn't sound so free does it?
I had not even considered free will in this argument before. I guess I realy should have considering my favourite quote regarding free will is a song line by Nick Cave.
"he screamed, "you are an evil man"
and I paused a while to wonder
"if I have no free will then how can I
be morally culpable, I wonder""
Now my head is in a tizy about free will and morality, but I think that is a subject for another thread.
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discombobulated61
I think our character and the attached morals evolve or devolve throughout our life.
Can I ask, Do you (and I suppose other Christians also) feel that there is a higherarchy to morals? (I only ask, because you use the word "devolve" to describe changes in morals.)
Regarding the forums and threads I don't think a lot of the comments the OP refers to are the result of religious people responding to anothers faith or their nonfaith. Some no doubt are but not all.
Would you perhaps know why some people (Christians mainly in my experiance, but there are other people who suffer the same afliction) seem to disregard others as completely imoral and beneath them for not having the same set of morals as them?
Many rude comments and acusations are tossed around inside these forums. And people have long memories when it comes to a slight or an insult, even if it's not directed at them personally
I'm certain we have all been privy to this kind of behaviour. 
A person may read a comment written on a thread some time ago and pigeon hole the author into a category based on that one comment. Unfortunately, once pegged as a particular type of person it can be difficult to change that perspective.
I never do that!!!... Well not often!!!... Ok not all the time!
Fine, i'm guilty of pigeonholing people! You uncovered my human side, Grrrrrrr!
So I guess my point would be, how much of the problem do we ourselfs have to own in regards to how others view us?
Hmm, Its an intresting question and one that I think has a very simple answer but with an extramly complicated explantion of that answer. The simple answer being, it varies depending on the person and the situation and... ect.
Is it really as much to do with religion and faith as you think or is it simply conflict of personality?
I personaly do not think it actualy has to do with religion, but I also do not belive it is a mater of conflicting personalities. I have yet to meet anyone who has made me question wether or not people are inately moral.
I personaly belive that it is ussed as a form of personal attack by those less scrupiolous. I just wonder why it seems to be a comon attack on people with no religious affiliation, by (most offten) those with a strong one?
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Algy
Ironic that the OP calls himself "Bright1". That's what "Lucifer" means. No offense OP.
None taken, the morning star is somewhat of a folk hero of mine. However my name actualy referts to Raziel (also known as "the viel" "the gaurdian" "the keeper" and by many other names.) from Talamund theology. It is the name given to my the first woman to ever love me (other than mom of course) and I first started ussing the interwebnet at that time, so it has just stuck as my handle since.
Anyway, enough of my history....
Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—
I had always thought that to be a sideline of meritocracy. You learn something new everyday.
humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith, the supernatural, or divinely revealed texts.
My understanding was that it did not reject them, merely placed tham in a context of being purely psychomechanical constructs desighned to beter understand our world and ourselves.
Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of human nature, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.
Very intresting. I knew a bit about Humanism before, but It had never been explained in this way to me. Sounds like an intresting philosophy and so I am now off to garner more information on said topic untill the morning. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/6/2007 2:19:28 PM | Op: Hierarchy wouldn't be the word I'd use. We have people in leadership and teaching positions. And some people are no doubt more enlightened than others. But any good church leader will be the first to tell you he/she is no better than anyone else. I mentioned evolve and devolve because I believe if one can go foreward they must also be able to go backward. There are few one way streets in life.
I will offer one suggestion as to why christians act as they do. Imagine someone who has been blind all there life having an operation and being able to see. Imagine what a feeling it would be to see a rainbow the first day with your new sight. I can imagine the person being very excited and wanting to make sure everyone around seen it. Even though we've seen many of them and it is insignifigant to us, to the person who was blind it is something that needs to be pointed out.
The same kind of thing happens when someone first comes to christ. The problem is their new sight causes them to see, from their new perspective, all that is wrong in the world. The problem you write about is a common mistake that many new christians make. And, unfortunately, many christians never mature out of their infant stage of christiananity. My particular faith teaches we are not to judge non-believers. We are, however, to call our own (brothers and sisters in christ) on there s**t. Remember as well though, christians are only people and all people make mistakes and are fallable. Talk to christians on this sight and you'll find many have stories of personal insults and attacks from non-believers. Attacks and insults directed at their faith.
Of course, another possibility is that the person just happens to be an a**hole. And if someone was an a**hole before coming to christ it may take some time to work that character defect out of him/her. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/6/2007 7:32:36 PM | Some people without faith have no morals, some people who claim faith also have no morals; some people without faith have morals, some people who claim faith also have morals.
It's really not got much to do with faith or lack thereof. It has more to do with personal outlook toward the world and the individual's place in it. Plenty of people on both sides of the religious fence are altruistic and moral for the sake of making the world a better place to live in and in order to live with themselves because they have consciences.
Plenty of people on both sides of the religious fence are also purely self-interested (read selfish and have very little in the way of conscience). True, the non-religious self-interested person is more likely to adhere to some form of dogmatic morality, but this doesn't make them any better than the self-interested atheist who lives only for the day and doesn't care a twit about the world tomorrow.
It's about people, not religion.
I've met plenty of non-religious people with morals, and plenty of religious people with none. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/6/2007 9:22:15 PM | The question might be posed to those who claim that religion gives them morals, if not for religion, would they be just animals running around aimlessly, beating babies to death, raping women, stealing, killing and such?
Because if religion is the only thing stopping them from such acts, then it doesn't say much about them as people in general.
Then being an Atheist, if I do one act of kindess, it is worth more then all of their pious self rightous charity giving put together, because I do it for no other reason then to help someone in need, while they do their good deeds, for approval by their master. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/6/2007 10:03:23 PM | | Do morals come from religion or upbringing? I consider myself to be spiritual as opposed to religious, in my experiences though I can say that I have more christian values than some church going christians would be able to remember. Not to be critical of religion as for some it is the essence of their being and far be it from me to faine the being of anyone. My Mother & Father however taught me that my word is who I am, representing myself and them with pride is the most moralistic thing I can do! | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/6/2007 11:44:35 PM |
I've said this before... morality is subjective
??
And you contradict yourself with (in my mind) a concise truth here.... VV:
I know instinctively when something is right and when something is wrong
One of the many troubles we've seen for 1400 - 2000 years of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, is that men and women are seen as inherently evil (at worst) or unredeemingly weak and immoral (at best) if left to their own devices, (or religiously cut-off, to use see it from their view).
"I know instinctively ...." indeed. But, then, Christians and others see this view as personal hubris or grandiosity, instead of what it REALLY is -- taking responsibility for the GOODNESS inherent in all of us, and using it to live up to our calling at birth, rather than to use the religious way of historical existential guilt that one can only make resigned peace with our evil, compromised nature.
I can't remember who to attribute this Buddhistic quote to, but to paraphrase: "Even a three year-old knows what a seventy year-old will refuse to accept and do." | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/7/2007 2:15:23 AM | I use philosophy. I'm a rule utilitarian.
http://utilitarianism.com/ruleutil.htm | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/7/2007 7:26:56 AM | My personal thoughts on this are that....
Religion makes morals
People make morals
People choose whether to hold them or not to.
People who choose to hold them may choose not to be religious, or to be religious.
If someone is born into an athiest family, and grows up with a set of morals, then converts to Christianity, and holds those same morals, then converts to a form of Paganism, and still holds those same moral values they have held their whole life - it is quite obvious that religion does not make you moral.
The individual person and sometimes their upbringing, makes a person moral.
And lets not forget that there are DIFFERENT moral codes. For each and every person. No two Christians will be identical and no two pagans will be identical in their moral code. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/7/2007 7:58:34 AM | Partners, everyone has rules. morality is determined by how well you obey those rules.
To a religious person, if you do not obey the rules theybeleive in you are imoral to them although not perhaps to yourself.
Just as to some people on this thread the religious are immoral because they don't obey your rules.
The only thing I disagree with is those who say they just know what is right or wrong. Sorry you only "know" what is right or wrong because of the things life has placed inside you and that includes your run ins with religion.
If a person decides that a religion is the path to peace in this universe hell yes they obey the rules only time will tell who is right if we ever know. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/7/2007 11:03:42 AM | ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Morality is a system of principles and judgments based on cultural, religious, and philosophical concepts and beliefs, by which humans determine whether given actions are right or wrong. These concepts and beliefs are often generalized and codified by a culture or group, and thus serve to regulate the behaviour of its members. Conformity to such codification may also be called morality, and the group may depend on widespread conformity to such codes for its continued existence. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morals
ethics, the codes, values, principles, and customs of a person or society.
www.carm.net/atheism/terms.htm
Modes of conduct that are taught and accepted as embodying principles of right and good.
www.ethicsscoreboard.com/rb_definitions.html
The accepted standards of right and wrong that are usually applied to personal behavior.
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072480823/student_view0/glossary.html
Cheers,
Mike (compare and contrast to ethics and values for bonus points) | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/7/2007 12:41:33 PM | People can be moral without religion.
For some people having a religion may formalise the morality into a creed. Everybody has an unconcious code of conduct by which they live. These personal codes of conduct usually forms the basis upon which they basis their personal morality.
A thing is not moral(or right) because God said that it is moral, but it is moral because it is. In other words, the right thing to do would be the right to do regardless of whether or not you are religious(or belong to a religion).
In one of my favourite books, Taking Leave of God by Don Cupitt,to paraprase he argued since some religious people have a sense of morality based on a reward system e.g if you do good therefore you go to Heaven or its equivilant then there is an argument to made for arguing that since non religious people base their sense of goodness(morality) not on rewards but just humanism then we could rightly claim that actually non religious people have a bettter sense of morality than religious people.
Don Juan Jr. | |
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| Morals without Religion?
Posted: 3/7/2007 12:46:00 PM | I'm an atheist and I'd call myself amoral.
Or rather, whatevere morality I possess is fluid, can easily change. There are no absolutes for me. I am the dreaded relativist!
That said, I think I function well in society. Hell, I could probably even pass for a decent, god-fearing Christian. Love governs all! I've no ill-will towards people. | |
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