| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/13/2007 3:11:00 PM | It's official, the Penguins have signed a deal that will put them in a new arena for the start of the 08-09 season and will keep them in Pittsburgh for 30 years. Interesting comment from one of the team's executives was that the team has been working with an architect on the new arena project for six weeks, which tells me they used the KC offer and others as nothing more than bargaining chips and had full intentions of remaining in Pittsburgh all along. Mario also announced that the team will not be put back on the market any time soon, if ever.
So where does KC turn next? Do they pursue other NHL possibilities? The Preds have been linked to being the anchor tenant in the new building there, same with the Panthers. Also there seems to be speculation they start shopping for an NBA franchise, perhaps the Supersonics.
Good luck KC. As the legendary Badger Bob used to say, "It's a great day for hockey." | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/13/2007 4:18:27 PM | Good luck to KC; sounds like they have a lot to offer a pro franchise.
As a Penguins fan; I'm very glad they will stay in Pittsburgh. With the young talent in place; the Pens may be ready to make a run for the Cup in a couple of years in their new arena.
Go Pens! | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/15/2007 3:53:50 PM | Glad to hear that the Penguins are staying put.
Hockey in Kansas City? Maybe'll they last longer than the old K.C. Scouts did in that town.
Wouldn't K.C. prefer an NBA team to an NHL team? | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/16/2007 9:52:06 AM | | I am sure any city in the US would prefer an NBA team to an NHL team, look at the trouble most NHL teams in the US have putting butts in the seats. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/16/2007 10:08:15 AM | ^^^ I'll agree with most ... not Pittsburgh ... not by a long shot. An NBA team would never make it in Pittsburgh. West PA just is not a big hoops area, though Pitt has a great following (as long as they keep winning).
I think KC just wants whatever in the hell it can get at this point because it built that brand new arena with absolutely no ceretainties of who would play there.
Hockey outdraws the NBA in Tampa/Orlando area, too, which I find kind of strange. A lot of snowbirds down there, I guess. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/16/2007 6:36:06 PM | When will the NHL start putting teams back in Canada again???
- Winnipeg
- Hamilton/Kitchener/London
I think we've exhausted all avenues in the US. These cities down south are getting second and third chances to succeed. I don't see ANY Canadian city getting a second chance.
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/17/2007 1:57:41 AM | I think that Las Vegas, Hamilton, Portland, Seattle, Winnipeg should all be ahead of Kansas City.
Middle of the US is tougher on travel and there are other viable markets. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/17/2007 6:00:49 AM | I'd like to see Winnipeg have a team again. It would be nice to see the Jets take off again.
I'd even want to see the Nordiques again! There used to be a good intra-provincial rivalry between the Nordiques and that other Quebec based team. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/17/2007 7:08:09 AM |
When will the NHL start putting teams back in Canada again???
Biggest problem is the exchange rate.
I think that Las Vegas, Hamilton, Portland, Seattle, Winnipeg should all be ahead of Kansas City.
There's a reason none of the four major sports have franchises in Vegas.
Seattle MSA: nearly 4 million
Portland MSA: 2 million
Kansas City MSA: 1.8 million
Winnipeg MSA: 695,000
Hamilton MSA: 692,000
Looking at the population data and knowing how the exchange rate figures in, where do you think it makes sense for the NHL to go? Kansas City has a wild card, a brand new arena and the willingness to give a team a sweetheart deal. Winnipeg and Hamilton, much like Hartford before them, have been priced out of the NHL. It's sad because I know the kind of rabid fans both cities offer, but there are a number of strong US markets that it makes more sense for the league to try before downsizing back to such small markets. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/17/2007 7:16:34 AM | | if i have discretionary dollars, and i'm in las vegas, i'm not going to spend it on a hockey game or an nba game. i'm going to gamble. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/18/2007 7:15:38 PM |
Looking at the population data and knowing how the exchange rate figures in, where do you think it makes sense for the NHL to go? Kansas City has a wild card, a brand new arena and the willingness to give a team a sweetheart deal. Winnipeg and Hamilton, much like Hartford before them, have been priced out of the NHL. It's sad because I know the kind of rabid fans both cities offer, but there are a number of strong US markets that it makes more sense for the league to try before downsizing back to such small markets.
This is where businesspeople are killing the NHL. It's all about money and you can't run a league like that. It took a lockout to restore some semblance of competitive balance between the 30 teams.
I think the game needs to get SMALLER to get better. If I were the commish, I've wave bye bye to about four teams (contraction) and pull out of the sun belt to restore teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City. A 26 team league with 8 Canadian teams is a stronger NHL and a better on ice product because the talent level will be higher.
It's good for the game not to lose touch with its roots and to have a MAJOR influence inside Canada.
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/18/2007 7:49:34 PM | As a die-hard Rangers fan, even I have to say that I'm glad to see that the Pens are staying put. I don't know how to explain it, but some teams just belong in certain places, and the Pens & Pittsburgh fit that bill to a T.
And the exchange rate isn't that bad between the US and Canada anymore. Last time I was up there in November, I traded in $140 American and only got like $150-160 Canadian back...don't know how much it's fallen off since then, but I can't imagine it's as bad as it was when the whole issue first came up in the NHL. Now taxes in Canada vs the States...well...that could be a completely different story. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/19/2007 10:47:16 PM | I totally agree with you!
It would be so great to see the league expand in Canada.
I was excited to hear about Kitchener and the pens.
Nashville, KC, Atlanta, Columbus, Houston.....these cities are and will continue to kill the NHL.
What do u think about Saskatchewan or Quebec city? | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/20/2007 7:23:47 PM |
I totally agree with you!
It would be so great to see the league expand in Canada.
I was excited to hear about Kitchener and the pens.
Nashville, KC, Atlanta, Columbus, Houston.....these cities are and will continue to kill the NHL.
What do u think about Saskatchewan or Quebec city?
I don't want to see the league expand. I think there are too many teams already. I would move existing teams like Atlanta, Nashville, Florida, up into Canada (Winnipeg, Quebec City, Kitchener-Waterloo). Then I would squash a few other teams like Carolina, Phoenix, Columbus, and New Jersey.
That would give us a 26 team league again with 9 Canadian based teams:
- Vancouver
- Calgary
- Edmonton
- Toronto
- Montreal
- Ottawa
- Winnipeg
- Kitchener-Waterloo
- Quebec City
This would achieve a few very important goals:
* Putting teams in markets with strong fan support.
* Returning Canada's game to Canada. (We've been more than kind in sharing.) | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/21/2007 6:48:14 AM |
This is where businesspeople are killing the NHL. It's all about money and you can't run a league like that. It took a lockout to restore some semblance of competitive balance between the 30 teams.
As much as we as fans are emotionally involved, it's still a business and people are investing real money with the hopes of gettig a real return. That's why it's no surprise to me that with a promising young team and a new arena on the way, the Lemieux group has taken the Pens off the market.
I think the game needs to get SMALLER to get better. If I were the commish, I've wave bye bye to about four teams (contraction) and pull out of the sun belt to restore teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City. A 26 team league with 8 Canadian teams is a stronger NHL and a better on ice product because the talent level will be higher.
I agree. Contraction should be considered. However, it will never happen. In fact, as I understand, the league is actually considering expanding again. But why it would never happen is (1) the NHLPA would never allow it, especially after getting bent over following the lockout and (2) too many owners have stakes into the hundreds of millions of dollars that they would stand to lose.
And the exchange rate isn't that bad between the US and Canada anymore. Last time I was up there in November, I traded in $140 American and only got like $150-160 Canadian back...don't know how much it's fallen off since then, but I can't imagine it's as bad as it was when the whole issue first came up in the NHL. Now taxes in Canada vs the States...well...that could be a completely different story.
Well, the exchange rate is something that fluctuates daily. Right now, the American dollar is relatively weak because the US is operating at a trade deficit, which will change as the world economy cycles. Traditionally, and even currently, the US dollar is stronger than its Canadian counterpart and it does cause issues for professional sports franchises playing in leagues that cross the border. At $155 C for $140 US, that's roughly a 10% difference. What that means is for ever $1 million USD spent, Canadian franchises have to fork out an additional $100K CD to match. Look at the cap which is at $44 million USD ... that is roughly equivalent to $48.4 million Canadian. That's a substantial difference.
As for some of the smaller Canadian markets being mentioned, I understand those cities would have great fan support. Here is the problem. The salary cap is going to continue to grow. Use the NFL as an example. When the league instituted a cap in the early 90s, it started out around $50 million. Last year it eclipsed $100 million and it continues to rise. If the NHLPA isn't pushing for the cap to grow every year, it is not doing its job. As the NHL was before the lockout, good hockey markets like Pittsburgh were being priced out of the game. It's going to be tough for smaller cities, while they may have good fan support, don't have the business community to provide a proper level of support over the long term. Where teams make their real money is through corporate sponsorship, not so much through ticket sales.
I don't disagree with any of you that a lot of these Canadian cities would pack fans into the stands every night. But frankly, the future of the league is in American markets. They offer more potential. Canadian markets need to continue to be the foundation (to that extent, I think a second team in Toronto is the way to go), but if the league is going to prosper over the long haul, it needs to market better in the US, regain the momentum and interest it found during the ealry 90s and make it work in the US markets. Any other move is counterproductive and in the long term will only be a detriment and stunt the league's growth.
Sorry to put on my business cap, folks. I'm as emotionally ties to the sport as anyone. But from a purely business standpoint, these are the facts. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/21/2007 8:21:05 AM |
As much as we as fans are emotionally involved, it's still a business and people are investing real money with the hopes of gettig a real return.
But operating in a US market without any fan OR corporate support is not the way to make money. Most (if not all) of the US franchises I mentioned previously are losing money. The Nashville Predators have arguably the best team in the NHL (top 5 anyway) and they're not drawing flies. They have no support whatsoever. How can a 20,000 seat arena that is half full be more profitable than a 16,000 seat arena in Winnipeg that would be packed every night?
I agree. Contraction should be considered. However, it will never happen. In fact, as I understand, the league is actually considering expanding again.
What makes the NHL think they are a 30 team league like baseball, football, and basketball? Those other three sports have probably 10x the number of people playing in America than hockey. Where are they drawing their talent from? The fact is, the NHL is not in the same realm of popularity as those other big three sports. Sure, we get support from european countries, but even over there hockey is not the #1 sport. The NHL is greatly overextended and spread way too thin. I believe the last wave of expansion is one of the reasons the product got so bad. The NHL (almost overnight) went and expanded by 6 teams in places they had no business going.
I don't disagree with any of you that a lot of these Canadian cities would pack fans into the stands every night. But frankly, the future of the league is in American markets. They offer more potential. Canadian markets need to continue to be the foundation (to that extent, I think a second team in Toronto is the way to go), but if the league is going to prosper over the long haul, it needs to market better in the US, regain the momentum and interest it found during the ealry 90s and make it work in the US markets. Any other move is counterproductive and in the long term will only be a detriment and stunt the league's growth.
This "potential" in the US markets is not based on anything other than population. Sure, there are many US cities larger than up here in Canada. That doesn't translate into a hockey fan base, or any support for the NHL. This LINK that the NHL sees between wealthy, large, US cities and a wealthy NHL franchise doesn't exist. Bigger isn't better. ie: Chicago, Phoenix, Atlanta. For the last several decades the league has chased this dream of just putting teams everywhere down south and having the fan interest and the big TV contracts will just magically appear. It never happened. The interest for the game is here.
And let's not forget, the so called business people in the NHL aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. These are the same guys that bled money for a decade before the current CBA. I question their business acumen when they're that poor at managing money.
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/22/2007 5:42:04 AM | Just some points I would make:
Here's the reason the NHL will continue to search for gold in major American markets: Tampa Bay is one of the league's top 3 markets.
If there is any American city that should be left in the dust, it's Washington. It's the worst hockey market in North America.
Smaller Canadian cities do not have the corporate base to support an NHL franchise properly. Fan support (read: ticket $$$) only accounts for a small portion of revenues. The biggest chunks come from corporate sponsorship and media deals.
The future of the league is in US cities. I know, it's Canada's sport and its more popular there and the fan base there is more rabid. That's all fine and good, but when the slaray cap rises to $80 million in a decade, those smaller cities will not be able to compete.
The NHL will try and exhaust markets like Seattle, Portland, Houston and Las Vegas before it admits defeat and returns to a failed market in Canada. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/22/2007 7:54:31 AM |
Here's the reason the NHL will continue to search for gold in major American markets: Tampa Bay is one of the league's top 3 markets.
Tampa Bay has fans at the moment because they recently won a Stanley Cup. We all know the support will disappear as soon as the team falters.
If there is any American city that should be left in the dust, it's Washington. It's the worst hockey market in North America.
Perfect. Then we take the Washington Capitals and move them north. I'm tired of these dead-end US franchises that the NHL leaves around simply because they've been in their present market 20 or more years. I'd put Pittsburgh in the same category. They've had their butts saved on more than one occasion. Only a winning lottery pick saved their ass this time otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about the Penguins staying in Pittsburgh. (They would have already left.)
The NHL will try and exhaust markets like Seattle, Portland, Houston and Las Vegas before it admits defeat and returns to a failed market in Canada.
I'm afraid you're right. Personally, I don't see the NHL ever returning to Canada as long as an American commissioner is in charge.
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/22/2007 9:44:17 AM | It doesn't matter if the commissioner is American, Canadian or Zimbabwean ... it's the right thing to do. Canadian markets offer no - ZERO - growth potential. Say what you want about dead American markets, but the profit potential of each of them is four times what is available from failed Canadian markets. By the way, ever wonder why the NHL has become an almost all American league? Canadian cities have failed to support teams time and time again. Yet we're told that they're such great markets. Hell Edmonton's not even as good of a market as Pittsburgh. No wonder it can't keep its great players ... Gretzky, Messier, now Ryan Smyth. And we're told Edmonton is one of the better Canadian markets - a hockey crazy town. Doin' a great job up there. But Winipeg and Hamilton are going to support teams ... yeah, right.
In a perfect world, Canada would be able to support a professional sport that is clearly its own. The world isn't perfect. If you can talk the NHLPA in allowing its players to make less money, then I'm sure expansion into Canada will happen right away. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/22/2007 1:30:58 PM | I think it is safe to say that most Americans have not played the game of hockey. Therefore, appreciation and support for the game at all levels will remain muted and only in certain pockets of the USA.
I think I heard somewhere that the NHL has finally started supporting hockey programs for children at a very young age in the USA. Something they should have done 40 years ago when they started expansion. | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/24/2007 8:29:26 AM |
It doesn't matter if the commissioner is American, Canadian or Zimbabwean ... it's the right thing to do. Canadian markets offer no - ZERO - growth potential. Say what you want about dead American markets, but the profit potential of each of them is four times what is available from failed Canadian markets.
It would make about as much sense as MLB, or the NFL having 20 teams in Canada. I think the location of the league should be where its "power base" is--that means the NHL should reside more heavily in Canada--regardless of what the markets are like. Fan support should count for more than corporate dollars. Since we don't have an NFL team, and only have 1 MLB team and 1 NBA team in this entire country, we need the NHL up here more than ever.
If that means less profits (and it shouldn't) than so be it. I'd rather have a league with sold out buildings in cities that actually play hockey and show it on TV than to have franchises with half empty arenas, no TV coverage, and tickets being given away for free.
Canadian cities have failed to support teams time and time again. Yet we're told that they're such great markets.
We don't expect tax payers to pay for private businesses. In the US, teams often get a free pass--to the detriment of the public. That doesn't mean we don't support them, we just don't foot the bill for someone's elses business.
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/26/2007 10:18:01 PM | Here's a thought.... how about the NHL adopt the same profit sharing ideals as the NFL.... that is the only explanation behind the Green Bay Packers... Yes the NHL should look at re-entering the Canadian market... But the current arrangement has some sort of fee/taxation set up for teams within a certain distance of each other.. that's why Hamilton has never really had a strong case. I'm not sure of the population of K/W but I think it lies outside of the travel time from the Leafs and would still be a reasonable jaunt for people that actually want to go to a game.... the AC is all companies when it comes to a game... Fans can't afford to go.
I think in an area of 500,000 people an NHL team is Viable.... with a 18,000 arena good chance on a sell out most nights | |
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| Pens staying put ... Preds to KC?
Posted: 3/29/2007 9:32:49 PM | First of all, the exchange rate is NOT the biggest reason why teams are not coming to Canada. It is taxation. Most US cities provide their teams with sweetheart deals for the property tax on their arenas. In fact, it is pretty standard for most of the teams in States to pay $1 a year in property tax because the cities recognize the economic impact that they have on the city.
Canada, on the other hand, does not do this. The Montreal Canadiens pay over $30 million a year on property taxes for their arena. This is more than EVERY American team put together. The Quebec Nordiques and Winnipeg Jets were both teams with solid attendance. They just both moved to cities that offered $1 a year property tax.
Until that situation is rectified, it will be hard to get teams in Canada. The NHL is not stupid. They KNOW that smaller markets in Canada can outdraw larger ones in the States. They KNOW that the Oilers are the ONLY Canadian team below 100% sellouts this season (they are at 98.5% tickets sold this season.) However, they also know that if the property tax is going to be almost as much as the team payroll, it is going to really hard to be profitable. | |
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