| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/18/2007 2:58:59 PM | Sunday brunch, one of my companions is munching on a caesar salad when another companion wonders aloud about the safety of traditional caesar dressings (made with raw egg yokes, among other things). My question: is salmonella inhibited or destroyed by citric acid (or other acids)? Foods like mayaonnaise, ceasar dressing, ceviche and other items which might tend to be prone to salmonella often have citric or acetic (vinegar) acids in their recipes... is the killing of microbes part of the reason for the success of such recipes?
Thanks! | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/18/2007 6:44:13 PM | When dressings and such are prepared fresh, with fresh (not aged) egg, there is usually very little instance of salmonella. Yes, citric and acetic acids help, but a fresh egg can be eaten on its own.
Just think of cookie dough - we eat it raw and it has egg, and so forth, seldom hear of salmonella poisoning from cake batter or cookie dough. Fresh is the key!
I'm sure someone else can provide the science... | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/18/2007 8:12:28 PM | An egg is contaminated with salmonela before being laid. Doesn't matter if it's "fresh" if it is already contaminated.
Best way to avoid geting salmenella from ceasar salad or any recipee that calls for raw egg is to use pastorized eggs. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/18/2007 8:42:10 PM | | Heh. I probably have an immunity to it. Grew up on a farm and ate eggs raw in one form or another everyday. I only seem to get sick from high chemical prepackaged foods, ingesting town waters, and using harsh chemical solvents.... | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/19/2007 10:57:17 AM | Please review this US Center for Disease Control webpage on Salmonella enteritidis Infection:
Salmonella enteritidis Infection | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/19/2007 8:56:32 PM | Thanks! Based on reading the CDC information, it looks as though the use of uncooked, unpasterized eggs could still pose a problem for those with compromised immune systems. Time to avoid dishes with raw eggs or use egg-beater alternatives.
I could not find any studies on-line which indicated whether lowering the pH of a food using organic acids (acetic or citric) would also help inhibit or destroy salmonella through the same sort of "oxidizing" process that "cooks" raw fish. Looking through respected food websites, I did find mention of "coddling" eggs - but since the yolks would still be runny, they would probably still be subject to internal contamination. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/19/2007 9:39:20 PM | | ^^ Pickling is a form of food preservation, however, the amount of acid added in the case of raw-egg dressings isn't enough to preserve them, in fact, I suggest that sufficient acid to preserve the raw unpasturized egg would cause unsightly curdling and separation. I would also guess that stomach acid, with a pH less than 2, would be enough to kill of bacteria, but apparently not if the dose is large and exposure/transit time short. The bacteria generally won't grow below a pH of about 4.5, but they will survive for short periods of time (hours). | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/21/2007 4:16:31 AM | LL, your idea of immunity is quite topical these days. Many microbiologists now belive that the big issue is not so much the health or hygiene of the food we eat but rather the clean closeted lives we live.
These bugs aint new, even the worst are naturally occuring at low levels in the environment around us, but hygiene has become such an issue that our exposure to them is limited. So quite literally our immune system is not prepared to tackle them if we meet them in serious numbers.
Some quite respected microbiologists have been suggesting for a number of years that the most healthy option is not hygiene, cleaning, antibiotics n all the rest, but to actually eat a spoonfull of dirt every day from an early age....
That way we can save the drugs for the really mean bugs n resistance becomes less of an issue. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/23/2007 10:07:24 AM | I was about to say that too newbie... too many bubble wrap babies and anti-bacterial soaps nowadays.
We have come from being raw food eating puddle drinking animals to a society of hand sanitizer carrying, run to the doctor when our poop is a new colour people.
We are breeding superviruses/bacteria by accident because of our habits. Sanitation and hygeine are to the point of being obsessive, doctors overprescribed antibiotics etc. Its gotta stop!
As for food... anything in moderation probably wont hurt you. A raw egg here or there in some food has less chance of making you sick than using a public bathroom.
Remember kids... when it doubt throw it out (or just fry it longer if you are in college) | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/23/2007 2:51:51 PM | ^^ jesus, more meaningless medical conjecture.
After you got done sucking on yo mamas teat as a chitlin, where do you think those microbes in your digestive tract came from, hmmm?
Came from raw root and leaf vegetables present in a traditional diet. That's what went missing in recent decades, with the advent of prepared and highly processed foods largely devoid of much needed nutrients that bascially catalyze homeostasis - along with exercise (the other item missing in modern lifetyle). Those soil bacteria carrying vegetables are sources of micronutrients necessary for immune health. That food source built a healthy microflora in your belly, the results of decades of eating the raw foods with plenty of antioxidants, minerals, vitamins and fiber.
Oohhh, fiber!!. Besides giving you nice healthy shits, it feeds your gut bacteria, and they are the ones that help prime your immune system to fight invasive microbes, keep cell division tightly regulated and cause unhealthy cells to self destruct, avoiding malignancy. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/23/2007 8:22:48 PM | As for food... anything in moderation probably wont hurt you. A raw egg here or there in some food has less chance of making you sick than using a public bathroom.
ummmm, gotta' beg to differ with you on this one... I had a cup of chicken/andouille gumbo for lunch at a respected community restaurant a couple yeras ago... it tasted excellent and had a subtle flavor of what, at the time, tasted like vinegar - an interesting addition to gumbo, I thought. That and toast were all I had to eat that day, and I left town shortly thereafter to drive home, 5 hours away. By the time I made it home, I wasn't feeling really well. A couple hours after that I was trying to get rid of my toenails via both ends of my digestive tract, thinking I might die of alimentary purge, and afraid I wouldn't. A friend who had a single spoonful of the gumbo, because I noted the unique taste, was almost as ill. We both suffered classic food poisoning from a "moderate" portion of food - it was the only thing we ate in common.
Two lessons learned: 1) gumbo should never have a vinegar taste - ever! and 2) food poisoning is possible from a single teaspoonful of tainted food. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/23/2007 10:59:28 PM | No doubt, and hopefully you learned that people preparing your food out will almost never put as much care into it as you can at home.
I've never been sick from any of my own cooking but I had an awful similar gut wrenching experience when I accepted some Dominos sausage pizza from a driver who said they were "extras".
The other thing I wonder about this is can you make yourself better by throwing up?
Does it help?? | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/28/2007 11:11:00 AM |
The other thing I wonder about this is can you make yourself better by throwing up?
Does it help??
Purging in such a circumstance seems, for me, to be an autonomic function, not a choice. Long after all visible traces of sustenance were gone, my body continued the purge to the point of severe dehydration, despite my use of anti-emetics after the first four hours after inital purges. After six hours, I was seriously considering trying to get to the ER under my own power. After 8 hours, I was no longer making rational decisions (because a rational person would have called for a cab or a friend or an ambulance to take them to the ER for treatment).
I think that, initially, purging helps to rid the body of the offending substance/bacteria and causes dilution in the GI tract - the body's own version of a stomach pump. However, prolonged purging causes severe dehydration and a drop in blood pressure (sometimes precipitous). The food poisoning itself (generally samonella) causes accompanying fever, muscle aches, and cramping.
As bad as the purging is, especially when it seemingly can't be stopped, I shudder to think how bad the infection would become if it didn't happen. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 3/29/2007 5:27:43 AM | A great majority of food poisoning cases are often chalked up to influenza (common flu bug). The average person gets food poisoning at least twice in their life without even realizing it, as the symptoms are very similar. Diarrhea, stomach cramps, vomiting etc.
A number of restaurants suffer business loss and in a lot of cases closure. Funny thing about that is, is the fact that many times the contamination was not their fault, but that of a customer bringing it through the front door from their own home. Trust me on this one. I was involved in such a case. The worst part is that when the food poisoning happened it hit the front page of the paper, but when found that the out break was brought into the establishment via a customer, the retraction happens on page 85 in the classified section. By then the damage was done. Good thing the owner had a sharp lawyer, and sued the paper for jumping the gun on the story. Helped cover the loss of business over the course of a year. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 4/13/2007 11:34:25 AM | Salmonella and Arizona are not the only causes of food poisoning. A vinegar flavor probably does not indicate Salmonella.
Further, eggs themselves should not contain any bacteria - a yolk is a single giant cell. Contamination should not occure BEFORE it is laid, it should occur AS it is laid. Bacteria collect on the shell as they leave the hen or lay in the nest, and then contaminate other surfaces as the eggs are handled or cracked. The contents of the egg are more likely to be an issue due to allergy, chemical contamination, or viral infection [such as polio].
If food poisoning is being confused with "influenza", then it's partly because people are equating "stomach flu" with "flu". Not the same thing. Stomach flu lasts about a day [and has been well-discussed in another thread]. Food poisoning lasts several days, and can be caused by Arizona, Salmonella, Escherischia, Clostridium, and any number of other organisms. Some of these infections have their own disease names [eg, Botulism, resulting from poisoning by Clostridium botulinum]. The one which makes the news most often is Escherischia coli, frequently from contaminated undercooked ground beef.
If you're running at both ends and suspect food poisoning, DO NOT consume any dairy products until several days after you feel better. My experience in this, you feel better, have a cheese burger...and a couple hours later you're back where you began. Someone else posted identical experiences after ignoring this suggestion. Stay hydrated, especially with gatorade. A clinic will diagnose "probable" food poisoning, but testing specifically usually isn't worthwhile. By the time expensive tests are done, you're better. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 4/13/2007 2:51:18 PM | CDC says some foodborne illnesses rose in 2006
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/fs/food-disease/news/apr1207foodnet.html | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 4/20/2007 11:13:46 AM |
Food poisoning lasts several days, and can be caused by Arizona, Salmonella, Escherischia, Clostridium, and any number of other organisms.
In the case described, it lasted about 5 days. Once I was able to keep fluids down, I pursued drinking Gatorade and a clear liquid diet until all signs of GI upset were gone. Even then, becoming too hungry or consuming too much caused discomfort and nausea.
If you're running at both ends and suspect food poisoning, DO NOT consume any dairy products until several days after you feel better.
Boy howdy, you're not just whistling Dixie with that advice! Fortunately, I learned this gem through a room-mate in college. She did have the stomach flu, but got to feeling better and craved some ice cream (she always craved ice cream!) About an hour after eating a pint, I was taking her to the ER... she was very, very ill... the ER doc couldn't help himself - he laughed when she told him the last thing she had to eat (kind of hurt her feelings).
With regards to the community restaurant... I called them the next morning to let them know what I suspected. It goes without saying that they did not want to believe me - and I can't blame them... I just didn't want anyone else to go through what I was going through if it could be prevented by throwing a single batch of food out... They did seem more concerned once I asked about the "vinegar" flavor... I tried to make it clear to them that I didn't want anything from them other than for them to consider getting rid of their current batch of chicken/andouille gumbo...
And yes, homemade gumbo (or any food), made by my own hands or the hands of friends and made with care will always be "superior" food to that found in commercial establishments... but is not always an option. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 4/27/2007 6:24:03 AM | OP:
To answer your original question, no Salmonella is not destroyed by citric acid/vinegar. Salmonella survives over a large pH range approximately from 2.5 to 9.5 or so, and temperatures significantly higher than room temperature (about 115 F or 46 C)
As far as citric acid goes, you have to right idea. Citric acid or other weak organic acids (like vinegar) are natural preservatives, and do kill off a lot of microorganisms. They don't work so well with yeast, mold, or anything else that survives or even thrives in an acidic environment. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 6/20/2008 8:09:00 PM | It seems like for the past few years we have neen besieged by out breaks of,.........
SALMONELLA POISINING,...
Why,...what causes these out breaks,..last year it was contaminated Lettuce,...this year,....its Tomato's
Ever wonder how these vegitables are contaminated ?????
1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack
The 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack was the food poisoning of more than 750 individuals in The Dalles, Oregon, United States through the contamination of salad bars at ten local restaurants with salmonella. A leading group of followers of Osho, then known as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, had hoped to incapacitate the voting population of the city so that their own candidates would win the 1984 Wasco County elections.[2] The incident was the first bioterrorism attack in the United States, and the single largest bioterrorist attack in United States history.[3][4] The attack is one of only two confirmed terrorist uses of biological weapons to harm humans
The chosen biological agent was Salmonella enterica Typhimurium, which was first delivered through glasses of water to two county commissioners, and then delivered on a larger scale at salad bars and in salad dressing.
Seven hundred and fifty one people contracted salmonellosis as a result of the attack, of whom 45 were hospitalized.
On February 28, 1985, Congressman James H. Weaver gave a speech in the United States House of Representatives in which he "accused the Rajneeshees of sprinkling salmonella culture on salad bar ingredients in eight restaurants".[6] At a press conference in September 1985, Osho accused several of his followers of involvement in this and other crimes, including an aborted plan to assassinate a United States Attorney, and asked state and federal authorities to investigate his allegations.[7] Oregon Attorney General Dave Frohnmayer set up an interagency task force between the Oregon State Police and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and executed search warrants in Rajneeshpuram. A sample of bacteria matching the contaminant that had sickened the town residents was found in a Rajneeshpuram medical laboratory. Two leading Rajneeshpuram officials were indicted and served 29 months in a minimum-security federal prison.
Pretty scarey huh ?
Tainted Tomato Toll Now 552
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20080620/hl_hsn/taintedtomatotollnow552
FRIDAY, June 20 (HealthDay News) -- The victim count in the tainted tomato outbreak leaped to 552 Friday even as U.S health officials announced that the salmonella contaminant did indeed come from farms in Florida and Mexico.
Investigation of Outbreak of Infections Caused by Salmonella Saintpaul
http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/saintpaul/
makes me wonder whats next,..with this upcoming Election, and all. :devil: | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 6/24/2008 6:55:34 AM | I find the funniest part about this whole Salmonella stuff to be that it's a bacteria that you can kill just by cooking your food properly. In the case of most salads it wouldn't work, but there's other ways to kill it, with common every household acids you use for cooking as a seasoning, though it does tend to ruin the flavor when you use it to sterilize your food.
This is why I cook my own food and rarely eat at a restaurant. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:52:05 AM | salmonella is rare enough as is...just can be deadly to the young and old...makes others very sick. It also has a tendancy to be easily transferred.
Try washing your veggies first...or soaking them in a sink full of cold water with two or three drops of liquid bleach in the water. This should help kill most of the bacteria, etc and help keep your veggies from spoiling in the fridge. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 6/24/2008 4:29:07 PM | | Bacterial have trouble growing in low pH environments (few exceptions). However, fungi grow well in acidic environments. Just leave a lemon out for a long time and you will see what grows on it : ) The success of these recipes probably has little to do with protecting food and more to do with taste. | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 6/26/2008 8:34:35 AM | The only process that kills salmonella is cooking the infected product to a minimum temperature of 145 F.
No amount of soap, bleach, alcohol and any other ideas one may come up with, will kill salmonella. They may minimize the risk of infection and help prevent cross contamination but they will not kill it.
For food processors, here is an interesting device the proponents claim will kill salmonella, et al, by "cooking" the product surface in a vacuum with steam.....
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3741/is_n10_v45/ai_20095592 | |
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| Food Science - salmonella question
Posted: 6/27/2008 5:21:03 AM | Bleach does kill salmonella (and many other bacteria and viruses) on hard surfaces, but is evidently not effective on organic surfaces.
That is why it is widely suggested to use bleach to sanitize preparation surfaces and utensils. | |
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