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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/8/2007 3:42:50 PM | None of the original Gospels remain (there were 35 or more originally). The best we have are error-ridden copies made circa 100 C.E. In the time of Jesus, that would be three generations of verbal story-telling after his demise. I do not doubt that Yeshua lived in Nazareth and became an awesome symbol of hope. His teachings reveal a fantastic teacher and a wonderful counselor. It's just that so much of the Christian Bible has proven to be self-contradictory and is not authentic to the earliest and best manuscripts studied, and so little historical evidence of Jesus interacting publicly exists. What do we definitely know about this man that has been the major influence in our society for centuries?
Example: Consider the powerfully inspiring story of Jesus forgiving the woman who was to be stoned to death, but when Jesus asked the crowd, "Who among you is without sin . . . cast the first stone" and everyone left, ashamed. This story was added some 200 years after the earliest manuscript. This story was not included in the most reliable ancient gospels. What else was changed to enhance the impact of the narratives?
What of this recently discovered Gospel of Judas?!?! Church leaders have effectively brushed it from our thoughts. How can this be? Thinking, rational people crave information, knowledge and "second opinions" before drawing conclusions. Do not succumb to the numbing trance of our contrived culture. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/8/2007 4:59:19 PM | | I am an atheist and I see religion as brainwashing PERIOD. Think about it . The people that believe in each religion are in their own havens of the world where that religion was dominant . For example you do not see a billion muslims scattered around the world , and the same for Christians and any other religion. They are dominant in certain parts of the world. I have a mind of my own and choose to believe in myself . There is no proof of Jesus . I saw a great documentary titled THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE. Religion was created by the elites to control the masses based on fear . | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/8/2007 6:38:53 PM | *sigh*
Militant fundamentalism is no less tragic in an atheist than in a christian. Religion did not "get started" to control the populace, it "got started" (which itself is a pathetically underqualified term to describe the myriad circumstances that lead to religion) as a means to explain what could not be explained. As religions evolved, they absorbed aspects of *other* religions: much like a jigsaw puzzle, where each piece is some unanswered question about the world, and each religion has a handful of pieces but not all of them.
Continuing this evolution, we see a few religions in particular become highly categorized and hierarchical, and these then exert control over the masses. Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, even Ankhenaton and the Aztecs. The thing is, NO religion anywhere on earth can exert *complete* control. Catholicism and Orthodoxy alike are full of pagan rituals and influence, Islam hs an elaborate pantheon on djinns, efreets, dervishes, and other supernatural creatures. Religion has never been about any one thing or another, it just *is*.
Yes, religion has caused tragedies and atrocities: or has it? Was it Christianity who launched Crusades into the Holy Land and killed off entire generations of young men, or was it a pope, a king, or a knight? Was it Christianity that gave smallpox-infested blankets to the Wampanoag, set fire to the Pequot villages, or expelled the Cherokee at gunpoint... or was it rather the colonists, the government they erected, and the army they raised?
Religion itself has never been the problem, and has never been designed for control: the problem, and the control, comes from those who would manipulate religion to suit their own ends. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 2:44:27 AM | | I am not a fundamentalist. People can believe what they want as long as they do not push it on me . If you are secure about yourself you would be ok how others felt . Though I must admit I do have a bit of an air of superiority because I did not let Western society get to me so to speak and I think logically. Besides all that you will never see an atheist suicide bomber because we believe when you are dead you are just dead. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 4:35:46 AM | If one seeks Jesus, one has to understand what was going on before the said arrival of this man who was the 'Supposed' last of the Davidic line. One also has to realise the history of the Jews and the goddess they worshiped, long before the Edomite, Herod, was given the right to govern Judea by the Roman Empire. Here are a few hints for you... It is a fact the Jews, before Christianity came, worshipped a Female deity called 'Mary'. This earth goddess had temples which were guarded by female priests, called 'Vestal Virgings'... Getting my drift? Joseph was the leader of the 'Macabi' tribe, one of the twelve tribes of Israel; in fact the chief tribe. 'Macabi', translated from the Greek, means 'Bradawl', a carpenters tool. In fact the twelve tribes of Israel are all named after a carpenter's tool...And guess who was a Carpenter! It has also to be remembered that 'Christus', from the Greek again, means...'Simple folk' those who used the sign of the 'Fish', the Pisces symbol.
In the Jewish religion, the Mother takes precedence... I should know; my Father was Jewish, my mother Scots/Irish...If my mother had been Jewish, then I, too, would have been Jewish!... It has to be understood that, at the times of the Romans, religion was undergoing change, from a Matriarchal society to a Patriarchal society. There was a need for a Male God...So 'The Virgin Mary' gave birth to a boy, the 'New Son' of a male diety, Jehovah... So... Did Jesus exists?...This poor carpenter, who could spend so much time in India and Eygpt, studying ancient religions and astrology... I doubt it... But there had to be an explanation for the 'Christus'! Starpoet. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 1:55:13 PM | | Outside of the bible and the gospels, there is virtually no evidence of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth yet the christians won't let it go to the scrap heap along with Thor and Zeus. Compare the limited existence of "outside" writings about the god-man with the mountains of writings by many different sources of Julius Caesar or Pontius Pilate. Not even close. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 2:02:43 PM |
If one seeks Jesus, one has to understand what was going on before the said arrival of this man who was the 'Supposed' last of the Davidic line. One also has to realise the history of the Jews and the goddess they worshiped, long before the Edomite, Herod, was given the right to govern Judea by the Roman Empire. Here are a few hints for you... It is a fact the Jews, before Christianity came, worshipped a Female deity called 'Mary'. This earth goddess had temples which were guarded by female priests, called 'Vestal Virgings'... Getting my drift? Joseph was the leader of the 'Macabi' tribe, one of the twelve tribes of Israel; in fact the chief tribe. 'Macabi', translated from the Greek, means 'Bradawl', a carpenters tool. In fact the twelve tribes of Israel are all named after a carpenter's tool...And guess who was a Carpenter! It has also to be remembered that 'Christus', from the Greek again, means...'Simple folk' those who used the sign of the 'Fish', the Pisces symbol.
In the Jewish religion, the Mother takes precedence... I should know; my Father was Jewish, my mother Scots/Irish...If my mother had been Jewish, then I, too, would have been Jewish!... It has to be understood that, at the times of the Romans, religion was undergoing change, from a Matriarchal society to a Patriarchal society. There was a need for a Male God...So 'The Virgin Mary' gave birth to a boy, the 'New Son' of a male diety, Jehovah...
I don't suppose you have some citations and sources for the above points? | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 4:11:30 PM | | There is no verifiable evidence to support the jesus of the bible, chronological, historical or archaeological. Neither is there any evidence to support the stories of the bible, quite the opposite. The history of the jews is very interesting when you consider the god they worship yahweh, is also the mythical god of war Yahweh, that's borne out by descriptions given of Yahweh's actions and wrath throughout the old testament. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 5:32:36 PM | Anyone interested might want to check this one out:
http://www.apollonius.net/bernardCe.html
With facts, some have come to believe that the story of Jesus was copied from of a few who lived before him - with same exact events and details regarding his life. A research on the net might help here. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 6:20:48 PM | i may be mistaken here but didn't Pontius pilate himself provide a written account about JC, even as far giving a physical description of him!
there are also reports from Josephus, Pliny, and various others.
even the Talmud makes mention of JC, but not in a positive light! | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 6:54:27 PM |
i may be mistaken here but didn't Pontius pilate himself provide a written account about JC, even as far giving a physical description of him!
there are also reports from Josephus, Pliny, and various others.
even the Talmud makes mention of JC, but not in a positive light!
Alas none of these sources are either contemporaneous, not contentious in some major way or in the case of Josephus, out and out pious frauds. The earliest possible account that claimed to have a "letter of Pilate" was the apocryphal gospel of Nicodemus, not accepted as canonical by most Christians and written no earlier in any case than 150-200 CE. There is no official Roman document by Pilate.
This thread would be the place to do a source by source listing and why they are or are not acceptable and if someone feels like doing that, jump right in...I'm out of gas from a busy weekend  | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 7:25:05 PM | If you can name ONE contemporaneous historian... one... I would be amazed. I can tell you one who lived in Jerusalem during the time Jesus was said to have lived and practiced his ministry...a prolific writer who wrote not one word about Jesus, the miracles he was said to have performed or any of his followers or for that matter the entire Christian movement. Philo.
All the accounts, as I noted, are either:
1 - not contemporaneous 2 - easily disputed 3- pious frauds
The simple fact that there was a known, writing scholar living in the Galilee at the time who wrote nothing of the man and his movement is far more telling than reams of positive near misses.
BTW ...Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC) was almost an exact contemporary of Julius Caesar as a result probably didn't write much about Jesus...at least without a ouija board...unless it was Zombie Cicero!
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 7:25:54 PM |
Why does everyone need proof to believe that God's son walked the earth. He came and suffered for you so you can question him. Question and doubt is work of the devil.
Thank you. He was the only man of any fame, religous or otherwise, to make the sacrifices he made. What's odd here is that historically what's been debated was whether his desciples stole his body while the centurian slept or whether he resurected, not at all whether he lived and was tried and suffered and allowed himself to be crusified, these things were carried out countless times before he was born as a matter of course. We demand less proof that we walked on the moon than we do that Jesus lived at all. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 7:28:22 PM | | I smile... We all may go on about Jesus and proof, but historians can't even find proof of things which hppened a year ago, or facts about the American Civil War! i suppose one has to accept that Jesus is alive in the human consciousness and that the Church is the richest land-owner in the world... Goodnight everybody...lol... Starpoet. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 7:40:59 PM |
If you can name ONE contemporaneous historian... one... I would be amazed I'm just curious fiddler. I know my own passion. I am an educated,sober, father of one and I can asure you that not long ago I had as much reason to doubt as anyone, and Jesus chose to stop me shortly after I had been casting doubt toward someone, my own family even, and made me aware as I am now of the truth. That's the basics of it for me. But what could be yours? Even as I doubted I revered those who had faith, the same way I encouraged my son to believe in Santa when he was younger, because that sort of belief fosters a beautiful, more selfless and imaginative mind. What fuels you to speak out so vehimently against those of us who have chosen to believe? | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 7:47:02 PM | Why does everyone need proof to believe that God's son walked the earth. He came and suffered for you so you can question him. Question and doubt is work of the devil.
There is in fact no need to prove anything ..... either we believe or we don't. But of course, just as there is nothing wrong with believing, so there is nothing wrong with wanting to find the truth. But it isn't really a question of proving that a so called 'son of god' walked the earth. We're in fact all sons of god. There is no difference - only some of us want to believe there is a difference. This is what keeps propagating conflict among ourselves.
I or anyone else, whomever it might be, is no different from who you are, whoever you are. You, I or Jesus, are all godlike. This, my friend, is a truth. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 7:48:14 PM |
BTW ...Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC) was almost an exact contemporary of Julius Caesar as a result probably didn't write much about Jesus...at least without a ouija board...unless it was Zombie Cicero!
I don't suppose I'm allowed to question how you can prove his life span, as you demand proof of Jesus'
who's word will you accept then?how about Tacitus ? Tacitus wrote:
"To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following." | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 9:52:59 PM |
If you can name ONE contemporaneous historian... one... I would be amazed
I'm just curious fiddler. I know my own passion. I am an educated,sober, father of one and I can asure you that not long ago I had as much reason to doubt as anyone, and Jesus chose to stop me shortly after I had been casting doubt toward someone, my own family even, and made me aware as I am now of the truth. That's the basics of it for me. But what could be yours? Even as I doubted I revered those who had faith, the same way I encouraged my son to believe in Santa when he was younger, because that sort of belief fosters a beautiful, more selfless and imaginative mind. What fuels you to speak out so vehimently against those of us who have chosen to believe?
In other words you can't name a single contemoraneous historian that talks about Jesus. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 10:00:52 PM | | Tacitus wasn't born until about 20 years after Jesus had supposedly died. How would he have any knowledge of Jesus? The fact that he misidentifies Pilate as a procurator suggests that his investigative powers were sub-par. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 10:14:07 PM |
I do not doubt that Yeshua lived in Nazareth and became an awesome symbol of hope.
You should have doubts. Nazareth was a necropolis at the time Jesus allegedly lived. Jesus wouldn't have been from Nazareth. The Gospels contradict each other on just about every point regarding Jesus' birth. They also contradict history. For example, the description of the census is at odds with how we know Roman's conducted censuses. The Gospels also have numerous OT Scriptures taken out of context in order to support the notion that Jesus was the Messiah. No contemoraneous historian knows anything about him. Most of the details of Jesus's life have parallels in the OT or were borrowed from pagan mythology. Put it all together and it doesn't look good for the historical Jesus. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 10:14:34 PM | The Roman Emperor Constantine, in an effort to hold the Empire together and expand his own personal wealth, declare Christianity (or rather, a paganized form of it) to be the national religion. He convened the Council of Nicea in 325AD, which chose to burn 76 of the 80 Gospels written about Jesus, leaving just the four in the New Testament.
The Library of Nag Hammadi (as it's been labeled) uncovered several texts supporting the existence of Jesus, including just two written gospels that had escaped this purge. These two books support a non-miraculous story of Jesus and his disciples. Spoken words in those days were memorized word for word, in order to be retold accurately. Words on paper could not be trusted, as so many documents have been forged. Written contract and history has only taken precedence over a man's word in the last few hundred years.
Remember that Constantines Roman Church was based almost entirely on polytheistic temples that were organized to control the masses. The common man did not gain access to the Bible and its secret passages until about 400 years ago, with the Protestant Revolt.
The Romans also have many written records left behind, including extensive tax records and names of men imprisoned or executed. A man named Immanuel (as Christ was known amongst close friends) was crucified around 33 AD alongside two other criminals. The Romans have other accounts and historical records of the era. However, their perspective gives Christianity a rebellious appearance which, in their eyes, presented a clear threat to the established order--that is, of the military, pagan temples, the Pharisees, tax collection, etc.
One little known fact is that the Romans would frequently crucify religious revolutionaries, then bury them alive to make an example of them. This is typical of Roman barbarism, but it's possible that Jesus himself was still alive when placed in the tomb. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 10:29:01 PM |
Question and doubt is work of the devil. Which is why you still believe in Zeus, Odin, and all the rest. Never question anything, ever. That is the lulu1980 way.
It is a truly sad day when searching for truth is considered devil's work. The work of the devil is better accomplished by discouraging others from questioning and doubting. | |
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 10:39:14 PM | "To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following."
The author of the book and the website "Jesus Never Existed" deals with this issue very succinctly. The phrase "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind...
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
When entering statements of belief and faith into the area of historical fact and truth, you have to put them up against verifiable and comparable pieces of real documentary evidence. That's the difference between quasi-mythological individuals and people who leave a solid footprint in history...the weight of real verifiable material they leave behind, comment made by their peers, reference made to them in contemporaneous works by non-biased individuals.
The question of this thread is what actual historical evidence is there for Jesus the man, not Jesus the myth. Kenneth Humphreys dispels the Tacitus forgery fairly well...
Caius Suetonius (c.69–140 AD) Nowhere in any of Suetonius's writings does he mention 'Jesus of Nazareth.'
Suetonius did write a biography called Twelve Caesars around the year 112 AD and of Emperor Claudius he says:
'As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.' Jesus in Rome in 54 AD? Of course not. But the unwary can be misled by this reference.
'Chrestus' does not equate to 'Christ' in English but to 'The Good' in Greek, It was a name used by both slaves and freemen and is attested more than eighty times in Latin inscriptions. Clearly, Suetonius was explaining why the Jews (not Christians) were expelled from Rome and is referring to a Jewish agitator in the 50s – not to a Galilean pacifist of the 30s.
It is also said that Suetonius, in his Life of Nero, described Nero's persecution of the Christians:
'Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief ...' (16.2)
We have moved from 'rebellious Jews' to 'mischievous Christians'.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE: Christians in Rome during the reign of Nero (54-68 AD) ?
Would (could) Nero have made such a fine sectarian distinction – particularly since there was no identifying faith document (not a single gospel had been written) – so just what would 'Christians' have believed? Even St Paul himself makes not a single reference to 'Christians' in any of his writings.
The idea that a nascent ‘Christianity’ immediately faced persecution from a cruel and bloodthirsty pagan Rome is an utter nonsense. For one thing, it is only in the last third of the 1st century AD, that Christ-followers emerged as a separate faction from mainstream Judaism. Until then they remained protected under Roman law as Jews. The irritation they caused to their more orthodox brethren meant nothing to the pagan magistrates. Says Gibbon:
‘The innocence of the first Christians was protected by ignorance and contempt; and the tribunal of the Pagan magistrate often proved the most assured refuge against the fury of the synagogue.’
Early Christ-followers called themselves 'saints', 'brethren', 'Brothers of the Lord' and their critics used various names: Nazoreans, Ebionites, 'God fearers', atheists. The Jewish association remained strong throughout the first century and when Christian sects got going in Rome in the second century they were identified by their rival leaders – Valentinians, Basilidians, Marcionites, etc.
So little were christ-worshippers known in the Roman world that as late as the 90s Dio Cassio refers to 'atheists' and 'those adopting Jewish manners'. Christians as a distinct group from the Jews appear only late in the 1st century, not long before the Jewish curse on heretics at the council of Jamnia (around 85 AD). The label 'Christian' itself only appears with the 2nd century Acts – with the story that the term 'began in Antioch' (11.26).
Equally odd, is that Suetonius's isolated sentence appears in a section on Nero's 'good points.'
It should also be noted that Suetonius does not associate punishment of the Christians with the fire that swept Rome, a crucial part of the later myth.
Quite simply, the reference is a Christian forgery, added to Suetonius to backup the work of the 5th century forger Sulpicius Severus, who heavily doctored the work of another Roman historian – Tacitus – with a lurid tale of brutal persecution ('torched Christian martyrs') which immortalized Nero as the first Antichrist in the eyes of the Christian church. (The second Antichrist being the reformist Luther.)
Cornelius Tacitus (c.55-117 AD) Christianity has no part in Tacitus's history of the Caesars. Except for one questionable reference in the Annals he records nothing of a cult marginal even in his own day.
Sometime before 117 AD, the Roman historian apparently wrote:
"Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator, Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race."
(Book 15, chapter 44): Yet Cassius Dio gives a more convincing report of the same "expulsion":
"As for the Jews, who had again increased so greatly that by reason of their multitude it would have been hard without raising a tumult to bar them from the city, he did not drive them out, but ordered them, while continuing their traditional mode of life, not to hold meetings." – Roman History, 60.6.
As we have seen, the term 'Christian' was not in use during the reign of Nero and there would not have been 'a great crowd' unless we are speaking of Jews, not Christians. 'Jewish/Christians' – being perceived by Roman authorities (and the populace at large) simply as Jews meant that early Christ-followers also got caught up in general attacks upon the Jews.
‘Their effects to dissemble their Jewish origins were detected by the decisive test of circumcision; nor were the Roman magistrates at leisure to enquire into the difference of their religious tenets.’
– Edward Gibbon (Decline and Fall) One consequence of the fire which destroyed much of Rome in 64 AD was a capitation tax levied on the Jews and it was the Jews – throughout the empire – who were required to pay for the city’s rebuilding – a factor which helped to radicalise many Jews in the late 60s AD.
Not for the first time would Christian scribes expropriated the real suffering of a whole people to create an heroic 'origins' fable...
No Christian apologist for centuries ever quoted the passage of Tacitus – not in fact, until it had appeared almost word-for-word in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, in the early fifth century, where it is mixed in with other myths. Sulpicius's contemporaries credited him with a skill in the 'antique' hand. He put it to good use and fantasy was his forte: his Life of St. Martin is replete with numerous 'miracles', including raising of the dead and personal appearances by Jesus and Satan.
His dastardly story of Nero was embellished during the Renaissance into a fantastic fable with Nero 'fiddling while Rome burned'. Nero took advantage of the destruction to build his 'Golden House' though no serious scholar believes anymore that he started the fire (we now know Nero was in his hometown of Antium – Anzio – when the blaze started.) Indeed, Nero opened his palace garden for temporary shelter to those made homeless.
In short, the passage in Tacitus is a fraud and adds no evidence for a historic Jesus.
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| What evidence do we have that the historical Jesus lived? Posted: 4/9/2007 11:21:22 PM | The author of the book and the website "Jesus Never Existed" deals with this issue very succinctly.
Now that promises to be an objective point of view, let me visit jesusneverexisted.com so I can make sense of all this! LOL!
this entire exercise serves only as a lesson that the whole concept of proof, of anything, is subjective.
I'm done. Take care all. | |
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