| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/13/2007 11:53:17 PM | Where I live we pay relatively high taxes to fund healthcare and health support. This I have no qualms about. But lately the decisions governing how this money is spent have baffled me. This thinking process started after reading the same things over and over in multiple threads.
Why is smoking heavily taxed (because of the cost to health care) yet proven treatments to aid cessation of smoking are not coverred under provincial health plans?
Yet at the same time if you have been hooking or robbing people to pay for a crack habit the same system with send you away to a resort and counsel you for months untill you are clean, the cost of these treatments is astounding. They both are choices, only one is legal the other is not.
Why does funding for parents of autistic children stop at 6 (or is it 7) years of age? Does the condition magically improve to the point where it is more manageable then?
The list goes on, the question is this:
How can we regain control of these systems and make them reasonable as the once were? | |
|
e-wok
|
Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 2 | |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 12:02:22 AM | I dunno exactly what the solution is but I don't want more taxes for
health care....I'm tired of it.
One thing we can do is to force couples who conceive knowing that
their children will be born with health issues. If you know that your
genes will produce a baby with cancer and the probability hits say
50% or more - then YOU pay the health costs.
That's one solution. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 5:02:25 AM | I don't know.
I like the universal system..over what the states is where is medical care for profit..YUCK.
I know we have major flaws though, and we should change with the times because the way things are now this Health Care system is not sustainable.
How do we change?
Write to your representative...I guess.
I have a feeling that we will eventually go to a more 2 tyred system...which I actually think will work better. England and other countries have systems in place that our gov should be looking to model.
I just don't want to go near what the Americans have to deal with....for example in my line of work...all the "newer" "most advanced" techniques are used on EVERYONE ,reguardless if its needed.....sometimes (often)simpler and more basic techniques are just as effective, the literature backs it up...yet in the States the docs make more money on the newer techniques so everyone gets them. Can you imagine a society that PROFITS off cancer treatment...there is something thats a bit sick about that. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 6:30:55 AM | Actually adjusted for inflation our current system is quite sustainable. Our problem is we keep cutting it in favor of tax decreases. Then wondering why it doesn't work as well as it used to.
Oh yah, Americans spend more on average for healthcare (government does to) and somehow has uninsured people. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 8:39:45 AM | kmhstx, Did you read the statements of the British health minister warning us very clearly to revert to our older model instead of adopting anything resembling the UK model or US model? Something like a 230% increase in cost for the same service. He had several points but I'd have to re-read them as I was occuppied at the time I browsed the article.
Too bad it is impractical to remove income caps on physician and pay based on "successful treatment" only. Cure X illness get X $, set a broken bone get standard fee etc. That would encourage cost effective treatment while at the same time leaving the most costly options available since unsuccessful treatment pays $0. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 1:14:24 PM | | By your system we'd have have no dermatologists - the cliche is that it's the best specialty since no one ever dies and no one ever gets better. To say nothing of psychiatrists. Nobody would ever go into Oncology. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 1:24:32 PM | Successful treatment does not always equate with recovery. But you would need to be intimately familiar with medicine to know that. And really it was only one odd thought that as already stated is impractical, but has some tempting applications.
And if you didn't know Oncologists have been able to put cancer patients in remission for sometime now. | |
|
| |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 9:19:53 PM | Being an American I don't know much about Canadian health care. I did however spend a few summers working at a camp ground. Many of the guests were Canadians who came to the USA to get health care because they said there was a long wait if you needed some forms of health care.
This was a few years ago and what most came for seemed to be cateract surgery. But it seems there is a notion here in the States that it takes along time to get certain procedures done in Canada. I'm just curious as to if there is a long wait or not for certain health care procedures in Canada. Maybe someone from Canada would be kind enough to enlighten me on this and put the rumors that one hears about health care in Canada to rest.
What I do I find it disturbing is that one of the posters said that if you knew you had a chance to have a child with a health problem you should have to pay that child's medical costs of your own pocket. That sounds to much like selective breeding.
I also find it a disturbing thought that my fellow countrymen would have input into anything to do with my health care. I think that is what is bad about socialized health care, the tax payers wanting to save money at the expense of someones health. The other thing I've noticed is that Canadians seem to want to have more control over a persons personal habits such as what they eat, the fat tax, and smoking, things like that. They feel that since it's their tax dollar paying for everyones health care they should have the right to force people to live a healthy life style.
I don't mean this to be offensive in anyway. The USA also has health care problems and some here say it should go the way of the Canadian System so I just would like to understand your system better, get some insight into the pros and cons of it. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 9:33:10 PM | Basically you have to wait for surgeries with a large number of people, dealing with non imediately life threatening issues.
Some people have a crap load of money, and want to jump the line. An essential idea of universal care is that somebody doesn't deserve to be treated faster, just because they have the cash.
So an American will naturally get a skewed perception, because the only people they see are the ones with the money who think its worth it to spend the cash.
Now the problem is, this only works because there is an outside place to spend the cash, if we let them do it in country, doctors would move to private care (as they have in other countries) and the line ups don't get shorter, they get longer in the public system, and shorter for the rich. | |
|
*Echo*
|
Joined: 2/19/2006
Msg: 11 | |
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 9:43:26 PM |
Why is smoking heavily taxed (because of the cost to health care) yet proven treatments to aid cessation of smoking are not coverred under provincial health plans?
Perhaps because it is relatively easy to stop smoking even without any treatment? (I did, went cold turkey some 20 years ago)
Yet at the same time if you have been hooking or robbing people to pay for a crack habit the same system with send you away to a resort and counsel you for months untill you are clean, the cost of these treatments is astounding. They both are choices, only one is legal the other is not. What do you propose instead? Throwing hookers and drug addicts to jails indefinitely and pay for their stay there?
...And what would you do with Johns.....??
One thing we can do is to force couples who conceive knowing that
their children will be born with health issues. If you know that your
genes will produce a baby with cancer and the probability hits say
50% or more - then YOU pay the health costs.
That's one solution.
Pretty scary and outrageous one as well. I certainly hope it won't fly in Canada. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 9:55:51 PM |
How can we regain control of these systems and make them reasonable as the once were?
My only suggestion is stop allowing right wing governments in..lol. The more left you go, the more is covered under health care. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 10:01:26 PM | charlesedm,
What I don't understand is why it takes so long for non life threatening services in Canada. I'm by no means rich , just fortunate that I have a health insurance plan, but when I needed cataract surgery it was able to be done in about 6wks.
Even if I am low income and need to have the government pay for my health insurance, medicaid I think it's called, it still doesnt take long to get non emergency medical services. I would have to hated to have to wait months to have had my cataract surgery.
It is a big problem here in the States with people not being able to afford private health care insurance, most of it is paid part in part or in full by employees, but many employees don't offer any type of health care insurance. They are trying to find ways for people to group together to buy health care insurance, that way the rate would be cheaper. I'm not sure that I would want all private health care insurance abolished. Is there any type of private health care insurance in Canada ? | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 11:31:14 PM | | You don't want the government to take over Health Care believe me. The squander billions of dollars now. Also, I just read where in Britain there were 50,000 non acute surgeries which had to be cancelled due to lack of facilities etc. Scares me! | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/14/2007 11:48:47 PM | You're failing to differentiate between emergency and non emergency surgeries.
Emergency and life threatening surgeries they get you in VERY fast. Things that can wait... often end up waiting awhile.
Yes there is private healthcare insurance, covers things like perscriptions, and dental, now my province has started doing things like hip replacement surgeries privately, I'm not happy with this, because it will just extend the waiting times for the rest of us.
Also depending on the surgery, some procedures in the USA do have a waiting time, it's dependant on where you live within the states.
You don't want the government to take over Health Care believe me. The squander billions of dollars now. Also, I just read where in Britain there were 50,000 non acute surgeries which had to be cancelled due to lack of facilities etc. Scares me!
This is the kind of talk of somebody who likes their income from private practice, and hasn't done any research. Lets compare the two countries shall we?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0815/is_10_28/ai_108994048 | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 1:35:40 AM | You don't want the government to take over Health Care believe me. The squander billions of dollars now.
_________________________________
Why? We have a bunch of leaches sucking the life from you pocket book now.
Goverment has run many....many operations better than Contrators. (Iraq...Katrina...ect)
Social Security cost 3% for administration, can anyone do better.
Goverment is the only answer for health care.
I have been there.
COBRA and Bull////////
Tell me how a Corp provider is better< | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 5:34:37 AM | To the original post, the smoking/alcohol tax, at least in America, is so high so it can contribute to each state's budget. Each time there are budget talks, the sin taxes go up. They simply have no other places to draw from, so smoking, alchohol, and gambling goes up and up. Maybe it's different in Canada as you pay taxes for healthcare, but that's a thought.
And to this post:
The other thing I've noticed is that Canadians seem to want to have more control over a persons personal habits such as what they eat, the fat tax, and smoking, things like that. They feel that since it's their tax dollar paying for everyones health care they should have the right to force people to live a healthy life style.
Most of our private insurances are going to more strict tactics as well. A lot of plans are offering employers a discounted rate for signing up for plans that require health maintenence exams yearly, mammos/pap smears, etc which is all well and good, it's the standard of care anyhow. But a lot of these plans are taking it so far as to require that if an overweight person is a member, they go through a weight loss program, complete with daily food diary to report to the insurance, or face higher deductibles and copays. A lot of them are also requiring smokers to do similar. Some employers locally are thinking of making their entire workplace smoke free, to the point of smoking being a firing offense, in order to get affordable healthcare for the employees. Some have already made the transition to this smoke free environment. The employee can get fired for having nicotine in their bloodstream much like a drug test. So we really are not that far off from having someone dictate our lifestyle. Granted, smoking and overweight are not healthy, but it is a hard adjustment for our 'land of the free' society to get used to.
Kind of ironic....when you consider that even 10 yrs ago, it was very sketchy at best and a huge struggle to get an insurance plan to pay for a mammogram, most of the time they were denied unless the patient had a personal history of cancer. Same went for smoking. They would pay for treatment of lung cancer, but they would not pay for any quit smoking programs...now they're everywhere. Birth control as well. They'd pay for an elective abortion, but would not pay for birth control methods. So I guess we have to take the good with the bad, at least they are thinking a little more progressively. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 6:28:03 AM |
I just would like to understand your system better, get some insight into the pros and cons of it.
pros and cons...hmmm...where to begin...there is lots of pros and cons
An essential idea of universal care is that somebody doesn't deserve to be treated faster, just because they have the cash.
that is an essential idea, unfortunately, much like Orwell's Animal Farm, not all the animals are equal
I was in the accident and sickness business for close to 2 decades...here's a couple of pros and cons
we have horrendous waiting lists of 6 to 12 months or more for cancer treatments depite having top flite physicians coming to this country because of some of our "state of the art" medical facilites
...a growing popular private insurance being bought in record numbers is an automatic cash payout of 10, 25, or 50K depending on the policy purchased for major afflictions...cancer, stroke, heart disease to name the big three...the original concept was to cover lost wages, and private 'home-care" while recuperating...what the consumers are actually doing is taking the cash and heading to the states to get immediate treatment
ah yes..immediate treatment for everyone in spite of the size of their wallet...this is just pure fallacy on many fronts... this is just one example...i know of 3 clients that required hip or knee replacements put on 18 month waiting lists...when a toronto maple leaf(go leafs go) or a toronto blue jay needs knee surgery he's in the next day...just ask Mike Peca or any professional sports player thatys tweaked his knee in a game the night before...same with cancer...just ask Saku Koivo
ah yes, the free OHIP, the universal medical system so readily brought in in the late 60's to make health care accessible and affordable for everyone...the citizens of the Province of Ontario should be quite proud to know they have the highest per capita prescription drug usage in the world...
you cant hide in small towns...some clients waiting upwards of a year to a year and a half for specialists also know the specialist had three vacations back to jolly old England and the sunny Caribbean during the time period these clients were waiting...and lost their livelihoods and homes in the meantime
there's lots of pro's to it too, mind you...just don't delude yourselves into thinking our system is a panacea...it's actually probably helped contribute to one of the most obese populations in western civilizations history...they can just run to the doctor at any one of our many corner after-hours clinincs to get some pills
not so fast anymore though...many doctors are refusing to take on a new client if he smokes or is too obese...they're swamped with, not necessarily hypochondriacs, but people that like Charles said, clutter up the whole damn system by never giving a thought to preventitive medicine in the first place
the health care system is not all that pretty when you get right into it, but i think it's still a better alternative to the Us system...I'd like to see a cross-breed of the two systems
 | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 6:50:25 AM |
we have horrendous waiting lists of 6 to 12 months or more for cancer treatments depite having top flite physicians coming to this country because of some of our "state of the art" medical facilites
Top flight physicians? Like Abu and Xin Woo? While 50% of our own doc's head south of the border upon graduation? This is the moronic income cap that was instituted. If a specialist hits his income cap in 6 months should we expect him to work for free or take multiple vacations?
ah yes, the free OHIP, the universal medical system so readily brought in in the late 60's to make health care accessible and affordable for everyone...the citizens of the Province of Ontario should be quite proud to know they have the highest per capita prescription drug usage in the world...
Since when did OHIP cover prescription drugs? Retirees might have some covereage, but are there really that many old people or do these figures include sales of prescription meds to foreigners such as Americans sick of being screwed by gouging pharmacutical firms at home?
Thinking about it getting rid of that income cap sounds like an excellent starting point as it would encourage more doc's to stay here. Many wait-times on non-essential procedures has to be related to the shortage of physicians many areas are facing. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 7:09:26 AM | both good points from P'boro...and speaking of incomes, what about this complete clusterfukk here in this town with the 'new' (3 years behind schedule and millions and millions of dollars overbudget) cancer centre here.
So we have a bimbo running and overseeing a facility with blatant cost over-runs and inefficiencies, but because she's a local gal, the hospital board votes a huge pay raise for this twit. Then of course, when the provincial health care guy Smitherman calls her out on it all the local tv and papers rush to her defence in her support.
Why?
Because she's a local gal...If she pulled this pschidt in private industry she would have been shown the door two years ago. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 7:19:25 AM | I'd like to add something here, being from Canada.
If a person has one or more chronic illnessess and one or more Specialists/doctors for each one requiring a specialist then why in the world can these Doctors not get together and talk to each other and work as a team in the management of a patient's care, especially if that patient's symptoms are not improving?
Oh the Specialist will say I am only here to cover the illness you have. Or oh we don't have the time or bla bla bla. Yet when you go to get your drugs there is a Drug watch where the Pharmacist must pay attention to drugs interacting or interfering with each other. So in this logic wouldn't it be logical to then conclude that one illness might affect another illness and ALL symptoms might be connected or maybe there is something even more serious going on? Oh of course once you have been diagnosed with something and your still not improving you practically need a lawyer to get another test done.
Crikey, and then the Doctor's wonder why their patients get an attitude? Gee could it be cause their freakin LIVELIEHOOD has been affected and they need to pay their bills and survive?
Oh yeah and you got to love the fact that there is no family doctors, and say for example;you need to go back to the Stomach Specialist at the Hospital who diagnosed you a few years ago because your still RALPHING all the time, guess what they say? Oh I'm sorry you need another Referral from a Family Doctor in order to see the Puke Doctor again. WTF?
Oh and don't even bother going to the Walk in Clinic or Emerge in the hopes you can go back to the Puke doctor again cause guess what? They don't give Referrals either.
Sincerely:
from someone who has been stuck in Canada's wonderful Healthcare System during their PRIME years.
GAG
| |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 7:25:27 AM | "Why is smoking heavily taxed (because of the cost to health care) yet proven treatments to aid cessation of smoking are not coverred under provincial health plans?"
Time out ... there is no PROVEN treatment to aid cessation.
The best available is wellbuton.. and it is successful in 8% of cases... not what anyone would call a "proven" treatment. If the birth control pill had an 8% success rate would you call that a "proven treatment"? lol
The only "proven" aid to cessation of smoking is for the individual to have the Self Motivation to do it. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 7:48:18 AM | How can anybody in Canada believe that the health care system is underfunded when the federal government has posted double digit billion dollar surpluses for the last decade?
The cost to the health care system supposedly caused by smoking (remember its all virtual calculations) is 3.4 billion. This figure does not include the money saved by not paying pensions and residential health care for elderly smokers who die 5 or so years younger than non-smokers.
Last year, smokers paid $10 billion in taxes.
So far people have been talking very freely about the cost to health care by smokers. It sounds like alot until you put some perspective on it.
Cost to healthcare caused by people who fail to properly wash their hands or employ unsafe food handling practices - 12 Billion. Extra contributions paid to health care by these people? - $0.
Cost to healthcare caused by falls, sports injuries - 9 billion. Extra contributions paid to health care by these people? - $0.
Cost of the treatment for 1 case of alzeimer's - $174,000 (US dollars) (Smoking is protective of both alzeimers' and parkinson's.
Cost of the treatment for 1 case of lung cancer - $24,000 (US dollars)
The question that people should be asking themselves here (especially smokers) is not what group of people need to get tagged as the next select group of people to pay "extra" taxes to cover their "extra" health care costs.
The question Smokers - need to ask themselves is - with $10 billion dollars to cover approximately 5 million people, on top of all the normal health care costs that we pay just like everybody else - why are we continuing to contribute to the health care costs of non-smokers? | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/15/2007 7:15:07 PM | I don't know where to begin in the great healthcare debate. I will first say look at what 3% is a total from. ANyone can do it cheaper. I work as a healthcare consultant and we are currently examining the dollars the States pay out for Medicaid benefits and the BILLIONS of dollars in errors being made. In addition, each state Medicaid plan has its own set of benefits and regulations, own infrastructure to support it as well as pwn computer systems to manage the administration. The Feeral government funds at a mimimum 50% of the Medicaid costs. Therefore, I believe the Feds should step in and mandate one single covergae platform with the exact same benefits throughout each state mirroring Medicare. They then could collapse the administration to regional oversight and eliminate BILLION of dollars in costs associated with the Admin. The cost of delivery would plummett.
As far as surgical schedules for non emergency treatments, I have NEVER had one denied or cancelled due to an over demand issue. What needs to happen is for the government to eliminate exclusive patents or at least maintain them only until the company could break even from the research and development costs. As far as people in America waiting for cancer treatments or the likes, I have only heard of rare cases this ever occurred.
The issue is the lack of education of the people covered on how to use thier plans. Instead of going to a doctor, millions use the emergency room as their primary care phsyscian. This inceases the cost for everyone by a minimim of tenfold. Why do they odo this? Because no oe stops them. They pay nothing for benefits and pay nothing for their care so what do they have to lose? Nothing and it is typically more convenient for them. Meanwhile the taxes for everyone else continues to rise to support this behavior. After 18 plus years in the health care insurance business delaing with private and government programs extensively, I can say there is NO WAY I would ever want socialized medicine.
The irony is everyone in the government cries wolf over the costs of health care. I ask why then do they mandate specific limitations on Private Carriers when attempting to recover onies obtained fraudulently or the likes. My best example is the State of Virginia, run by lawyers no doubt: If you are in an auto accident and the other party is at fault, you can collect 3 times for the same bills up to your policy limits. You can bill your own personal auto company, the responsible party's insurance and your health insurance. This causes the costs of everyone's premiums in both auto & medical to rise. It would take too long to go into all of this but the government doesn't manage ANYTHING well. | |
|
| Illogical medicare/provincial health plans.
Posted: 4/16/2007 4:49:47 PM | Hi singleman, I wanted to ask you about this:
After 18 plus years in the health care insurance business delaing with private and government programs extensively, I can say there is NO WAY I would ever want socialized medicine.
I have been billing for 9 years and have 18 yrs experience in physician's offices/home care etc. Personally, I kind of have the feeling that socialization would be a good thing, but I think that is only because I have no idea what else we will do with the monstrosity of private carriers. HMO's, PPO's, and EPO's specifically. Isn't there some plans to regulate these companies? I know the Insurance Commission is supposed to be doing this, but I don't really know what good they do. I feel that these companies are making rich men richer and poor men poorer, and the physicians are the middle man and losing their collective a$$es.
I totally agree with what you're saying about ER utilization, but in MI one of the Caid plans put in place an office visit, ER, and pharmacy copay one year. Let me tell you, it was nothing but a headache, and didn't last long. No one felt they had to pay it, because of the whole sense of entitlement that comes along with many that live on Medicaid. So it was an administrative burden on the facilities, and was dropped.
I don't know why it is that solutions seem so simple, yet the government keeps doing the same things with the same results, which are putting states in the red. Then other things have to suffer to make up for the loss, like education. bah...I could go on all night too. lol Just wondered what your thoughts were. | |
|
Home
login 
