| | I just can't do the math....Page 1 of 2 (1, 2) | God Created the universe.
He is responsible for everything being the way it is.
He created Humans
He gave humans the desire to commit sin.
Human commits sin
God punishes us for commiting sin
Does it not logically say that god is that god is punishing us for using the sin that he created.
Does this make sense?
I just want to understand where my logic is flawed
I want to believe in god. But I don’t understand how I can | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 10:53:26 AM | if God gave us free will then why does he punishs us for using it?
It's free will with conditions which really doesn't make it free will.... | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 11:32:59 AM | | I *think* god gave us Free will to chose *the right way or the wrong way*. Its a test, Quality control so to speak. Not unlike the *Test* god gave Adam with the apple...or ..pomegranate...or whatever. I think the rules are, that yes, you have free will but you have to Freely Choose the correct path to heaven. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 11:47:22 AM | Considering the Christian worldviewe, the "math" is more akin to this:
God Created the universe.
He is responsible for everything existing.
He created Humans.
He gave humans the potential (free will) to commit "sin".
Technically, sin is disobeying God.
Human commits sin by disobeying God.
God leaves us the choice to obey and gain "heaven", or disobey by committing sin and be left out of heaven.
That's how I understand it, at least. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 11:51:54 AM | The reason you cant do this math is because the math is all wrong. There is no ancient jewish tribal god looming over you... he didnt give you free will, and he dosnt judge you.
These notions are man-made, part of the worlds biggest and best scam. The church needs you to think that you need them, and for that they must have a system of sins wide enough in scope to catch prettymuch everyone.
Faith should be (and in the cases of real faiths, not scams) a vehicle for enlightenment. A way to look inward and understand the nature of the world, and more importantly, the nature of the self.
I just want to understand where my logic is flawed
Your logic is not flawed. To keep going with your math analogy, you are learning your math from the wrong teacher.
I want to believe in god. But I don’t understand how I can
Most people who want to believe, already do. believing in god is not limited to the narrow definitions of the judeo-christian mythology. There are plenty of faiths much older and less contradictory to nature and themselves. Once you open yourself up to the whole range of spiritual experiences available to humans, youll find god has many more faces than the old man in the sky who wants 10% of your money.
So, a recap. Your logic is fine, the system of math you are being taught is what is flawed. You see these flaws because you are a sharp kat.
J | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 1:06:50 PM |
I want to believe in god. But I don’t understand how I can
I see the universe as the god/s that everyone believes in.
The universe will not punish you for your choices, for every choice there are consequences and all you have to be able to do is make sure you abide by those consequences.
If people want to think that there is an entity that will benefit or harm them from their choices then so be it. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 1:15:30 PM | | What I do not understand is this . Religion supposedly gives humans a moral compass. Yet most of the rest of animal kingdom has morals because basically they kill for food only. So in a sense religion tells me that animals have better morals than humans because they do not need a moral compass. I wont even get into the hypocrisy of jihad and all the murder and religious wars . | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 1:16:52 PM | If that particular 'truth' does not resonate for you.. find one that does..
There are many belief systems out there... I truly believe that the search is part of what opens you up to a relationship with God... your OWN that is not governed by a book or someone else's hand me down ide0logy...
There is nothing wrong with being agnostic... enjoy the search wherever it takes you :)
JMO | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 1:52:19 PM | Logic is useless in religion, which is about belief. But let's play anyway.
What would be illogical about God punishing man in any case?
If God made man to sin and God wants to punish man for sinning then when man sins God punishes man. That's logical.
It doesn't sound very nice, but it makes sense.
I suppose cattle wonder why we raise them just to kill and eat them. They probably think we are illogical. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 2:48:34 PM | I once read that what set man apart from the rest of the animals was our ability to be self reflective, that we gave consciousness to the earth. The fact that we were able to perceive right and wrong and still make the wrong decision consciously is pretty impressive indeed.
Yeah, for human kind!
Please note previous statement was dripping with sarcasm
Always thought it was ironic that most religions believe it to be a sin to kill another human being, yet the untold numbers killed in holy wars are truly mind boggling.
Personally think there are two types of people, with two different types of belief systems, both self serving.
Main point of contention: Man being God-made vs. God being Man-made. Though the two may meet, they will never see eye to eye.
I also think it’s rather egotistical that if a higher power were to exist for a mere mortal human to state a thorough understanding of something so vastly complex. It would be like an ant trying to lecture on quantum chromo-dynamic theory .
I was taught at a young age unless you want to piss tons of people off, it’s best not to discuss personal opinions on Politics and Religion, these are no win discussions that will oft times end in heated arguments. Both areas, people tend to favor their own opinions rather passionately and no one is ever swayed from their firm standings.
So will end my thoughts with this…
If it works for you
If it gets you through the day
If it leaves you with a peaceful mind
If it doesn’t hurt anyone else in the process
then it can’t be all that bad.
Bonus points are awarded for spontaneous acts of kindness and generosity. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 2:50:42 PM | After we're born we start coming to our senses concerning just what kind of painful world we're in. We learn that we have been given a history of our kind and our relationship to our Creator in a rather voluminous and Divinely inspired book written by several authors. Upon reading this we realize we are living in a world that is no longer at all the pleasant peaceful place that it once was for us. We learn that we (our ancestors) are responsible, although not entirely, for earth's fall. We learn that we are sharing this world with ancient spiritual beings who were damned by God and flit among us inspiring us to anger and lust and seriously sin in the hope that our spirits too will fail to be fit for heaven when we die. We realize that we've been given a challenge but also, should we choose to accept it, some aids for success.
We learn that we can be baptised in the Holy Spirit which in fact gives us a Holy Angel from God to defend us from the inspirations of or possible possession by the evil spirits. We learn how to live in a way that generally pleases the Good Spirits although doing a perfect job of it is humanly impossible. We learn about prayer. How we can in fact communicate with Almighty God Himself when we are in difficulty during our time on earth. We learn that after death there is a sanctuary thanks to Jesus Christ and our faith in him where we will find ourselves after death which is well worth our time and trials on earth. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 3:29:06 PM |
If that particular 'truth' does not resonate for you.. find one that does..
There are many belief systems out there... I truly believe that the search is part of what opens you up to a relationship with God... your OWN that is not governed by a book or someone else's hand me down ide0logy...
There is nothing wrong with being agnostic... enjoy the search wherever it takes you :)
Exactly.
So many people seem so sure that there is only one correct perspective on faith. To me that makes as much sense as expecting others to tell me what my favorite color is. As sassy astutely observes, the search is every bit as important as the destination, and what any one of us might find at the end of our own particular rainbow may well be different from someone else's spiritual pot of gold, but no less valid.
My search didn't lead me to a god that created anything or judges anyone, but to a source of wisdom and healing that I've learned to tap into whenever in need that greatly enhances my life. I don't think I've found THE WAY, just a way that works for me, no more or less valid than any number of spiritual practices, including agnosticism and atheism.
So if your math doesn't add up, change the formula!
dave | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 3:41:51 PM | | The answer can be found in the writings of the monk Boethius who lived in the 5th centruy A.D. He speaks of God's existance, which unlike ours, is not linear. It is not possible for us to do the math. Unless, (given the premise that god exists -- I understand that athiests will not give that premise but for this discussion) we are more arrogant and know more that god/ | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 4:49:51 PM | | I can't do the math either, but the attempt is interesting. The creation calculation supplies much more logic than the existence by chance (for me). Existence by chance, offers no purpose, no reason, no logic to life. The calculation of this equation is short, disregarding both the purpose of life and death, which exists much longer than life (interesting variable). There are tons of calculations ... so, keep calculating until you find your solution . | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 4:58:01 PM | This is the way I look at it:
God is only allowing those into heaven that he beleives deserve it. Those that deserve it are those that listen to him. Call him a control freak if you will,...you disobey him, you aren't allowed to have "eternal life" with him, you listen to him "welcome home child".
Kinda sucks eh? Find a religion that you connect with, if it isn't christianity, that's fine...find something you do. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/15/2007 6:46:38 PM | OP, you are implying that God is the author of sin. I don't agree with that. I would say God gave humans the capacity to sin and then put them in a situation where they could choose to obey Him or choose to sin. They chose to sin.
I do not believe that God is the author of sin nor do I believe that God tempts anyone to do evil. I believe that, as it says in Habakkuk 1:13, God is too pure to look upon sin.
I believe that your logic is flawed because God is always described in the Bible as absolutely holy, pure, righteous, just, and without sin. God cannot, does not, and will not sin. I believe that He is incapable of sinning. The paradox that we face is the fact that a perfectly holy and just God would create angels and human beings who are capable of sinning. We don't know why a holy God allowed evil to enter His Creation, but we know that HE did ALLOW it because Satan sinned as Jesus said in Luke 10:18.
I believe your logic is also flawed when you refer to sin as something that we "use." Sin is not a commodity to be bargained with nor is it a currency to be traded for goods and services. Sin is a transgression of God's law in my opinion. It is treason against Him as a Sovereign King of the Universe.
I heard a really excellent definition of sin that I will share with you. I believe that God is separate from and above all of Creation. God exists outside of creation. God is divine; creation is not divine. This definition of sin was that man tries to cross the chasm between creation and infringe on God's divinity outside of time and space. In other words, mankind is saying that he won't live within the time/space/law boundaries that God has given him but will cross over and become like God. I believe this is exactly what the temptation in the Garden of Eden was: You shall be as gods knowing good and evil.
Holiness, on the other hand, is when mankind is satisfied to live within the time/space/law boundaries that God has given to him and acknowledges that he cannot be like God because he is a creature. In this analogy man respects the superiority of the Creator and worships Him as such. I thought that was a really interesting way to define sin down to it's most basic component--rebellion against God or submission to His will. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/16/2007 4:46:48 AM | God Created the universe = false
He is responsible for everything being the way it is = false
He created Humans = false
He gave humans the desire to commit sin = false
Human commits sin = false
God punishes us for commiting sin = false
Does it not logically say that god is that god is punishing us for using the sin that he created = in your worldview. otherwise its bullshit
Does this make sense? = only in one particular bubble of delusion
I just want to understand where my logic is flawed = start from an atheist perspective. it's then effortless
I want to believe in god. But I don’t understand how I can = you want a delusion? if you think its bullshit, maybe it is! | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/23/2007 5:20:38 PM | I've always had a difficult time understanding algebra, Lol! A+B=C??? Talk about something that is relative!
I think that you are basing you mathematical equation on Judeo-Christian Theology, so let's score your homework with the teachers editon, Lol!
1) God created the universe... ! (that's a check, sorry)
2)He is responsible for everything being the way it is... X
3)He created humans... !
4)He gave humans the desire to commit sin...X
5)Humans commit sin...!
6)God punishes us for commiting sin...!
= Does it not logically say that God is punishing us for using the sin he created?...X
From the teachers edition, the Bible...
2)He is responsible for everything the way it WAS before sin...
4)The Devil gave humans the desire to sin...
=Does it not logically say that God is punishing us for the sin that WE commited?
Please forgive my tongue and cheek here. I couldn't help myself when it comes to this kind of topic. After all, I am a "lowest common denominator" kind of thinker, Lol! | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/23/2007 6:13:54 PM | Obviously god can't do the math, either. Go to Numbers chapter 3 and look at gods addition skills adding up the clans of Levi.
The correct total is 22,300 but the "infallible perfect word of god" says 22,000!!!
How does anyone possibly believe in that book? It's rife with errors. If it has one error - it might as well have ten million. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/24/2007 6:03:52 AM | The math doesn't add up because you're using the wrong primer. Find a more logical book.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/24/2007 10:45:22 PM | @ and can it be
Holiness, on the other hand, is when mankind is satisfied to live within the time/space/law boundaries that God has given to him and acknowledges that he cannot be like God because he is a creature.
................I'm not sure what bible you got this out of, unless you are just making up your own (or your church's) theology!......maybe you should read John 10; 33-35, and see what JC says about 'gods' | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/24/2007 11:26:28 PM | The part of that equation that interests me the most is the part about
humans having the desire to sin, then being punished for committing sin.
While my religious beliefs are not consistent with the popular prevailing concepts of sin, I still see an interesting point of interest.
I think that we are given desire so that we can have an opportunity to shape ourselves into the people that we want to be. By that I mean that temptation is in us to measure our character. Just because a carnal desire exists within us, that doesn't make our actions natural or somehow justifiable. By the same respect, having the desire to sin does not make one sinful...acting on the desire to sin does. You have to make your own peace with what desires you feel are acceptable to act on and which are not acceptable to your moral or religious code. But I can't imagine who we would be if we didn't desire both sinful and non-sinful things. The choice builds our character and our substance. | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/24/2007 11:47:31 PM | [Q]"These notions are man-made, part of the worlds biggest and best scam. The church needs you to think that you need them, and for that they must have a system of sins wide enough in scope to catch prettymuch everyone"[/Q]
Well Said!! I think that the Scam that the church has created is the biggest sin of all
[q]"Faith should be (and in the cases of real faiths, not scams) a vehicle for enlightenment. A way to look inward and understand the nature of the world, and more importantly, the nature of the self."[/q]
I have to conquer wholeheartedly.
[q]"There are many belief systems out there... I truly believe that the search is part of what opens you up to a relationship with God... your OWN that is not governed by a book or someone else's hand me down ide0logy... "[/q]
Again Well Said!
It is all within! Write your own book! | |
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| I just can't do the math....
Posted: 4/26/2007 11:06:07 AM | | You are so right! I never got it either. I converted to a different faith and I'm happier now. People babble about free will, apparently he's testing us. i wouldn't offer my son a cookie and then slap him for taking it so what kind of sense does that make? No sense at all. Besides I've read the Bible and I find contradicted itself and changes it's mind about what is and isn't sin alot. How are we supposed to be sin free if the rules keep changing? UGH!!!! | |
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