| Incel
Posted: 5/2/2007 6:52:43 AM | | I wonder how many people in here realise that Incel (Involuntary Celibacy) is a very real thing, and that several websites now exist that offer support for sufferers of this horrible condition. It's a complex problem that varies from person to person; some people are just going through a phase in their life where they just cannot get a date. Some people ((like me) have never had any kind of intimate contact with a fellow human being. It's my belief that some people, because of their childhood/upbringing, fail to develop the social skills needed to be able to attract a mate. It's all very well saying 'oh just lose weight' or 'just get out more', but if only it were that simple. And the longer a person remains Incel, the more desperate and cynical they become. There is even an escort service in Holland that specialises in 'deflowering' virgin men. In my case, I don't actually view myself as an adult; how can I be? I act like an adult and look like an adult, but really I'm not. the one thing I want most in this world - to know what it feels like to be intimate with a woman - is something I honestly believe now I will not ever know, unless I pay for it. I post on here, because I have no one else to talk to about it. I'm embarrassed as hell to still be a virgin at my age. I would a some point like a family of my own. Not gonna happen is it? And so I stay in my own little world, because at least I am safe there. Who can I tell? I've told only ONE person, and she is the wife of my late friend Kevin. I find her very attractive, but again, I just don't know what to do or say. I know that as long as I am so lonely, I will always need medication to keep me from harming myself. Which has not worked all that well, because I have taken to slashing myself with a knife when I get stressed and upset. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/2/2007 8:25:31 AM | Hi Torquill.
It sounds to me more like you are socially anxious. Its very common. Ivoluntary Celibacy is very real yes but you mention you have not been intimate with a woman, you have not had the social skills to interact with a woman. Perhaps this is because you are shy and anxious.
Turning to paying an escort is not going to be the same as meeting that someone special. What youre talking about is a one off sexual encounter which will only satisfy you short term. Sex is not everything.
You have made the first step by putting yourself on a date site.
As for the self harming, this is only short term releif, and you know yourself that isnt a way out of your problems. It might make you feel better for a while but in the end you end up in the same place.
You need to completely change your way of thinking. How would you feel if you did find a nice girl and you got stressed and upset and hurt yourself? Try and think posatively. Break the cycle if you will.
Hope that helps. Barewolf.  | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/2/2007 11:42:44 AM | | consider it nature's way of protecting the gene pool :) | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/2/2007 12:06:43 PM | It might be best to take baby steps first.
Don't think about dating right now, but about meeting new people and making friends.
Let yourself progress naturally up the social skill ladder.
Best of luck to you. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/2/2007 12:43:07 PM | Firstly the virginity thing. That only describes a physical act which is a big deal until you've done it and afterwards you wonder why you were so worried about it or what all the fuss was about (at least I think that is what happens to those of us who leave it late enough to have thought very much about it).
I know that as long as I am so lonely, I will always need medication to keep me from harming myself. Which has not worked all that well, because I have taken to slashing myself with a knife when I get stressed and upset. I've been there with the cutting and bizarrely it took being in an abusive relationship to shake my reality enough to free me from hating myself so much. Is it loneliness or the feeling that you are unloveable? For me it was believing that I was worthless and unloveable...
It wasn't until I met someone who seemed to want to destroy me that I stopped wanting to destroy myself. At times I still get impulses, because I think it's what the chemicals to do with depression trigger inside my brain, but they are nothing more than random impulses now.
Virginity or lack of physical intimacy in your life is not nearly as important as what is going on in your head. It's I suspect that you simply have not found anyone like you. That doesn't mean that they don't exist. Take care with labelling yourself, reconsider this "incel" thing. You are simply you. It doesn't matter one iota if you have ever kissed anyone or held their hand or not... you are a human being with a heart that works perfectly beneath whatever layers of misbelief about yourself you have piled on.
There is one question that matters. Can you Love? Can you look at other people who are also suffering and see the humanity and good in them? Can you have compassion? What if there was a woman just like you, on medication, scars from self-hatred, terrified that she's unloveable, deeply flawed, embarrassed to even talk about problems that weigh on her so heavily, feeling like a social reject, finding it a huge struggle just to be in the world...? Would you be able to reach out to such a person, to love them with compassion and tenderness, as a fellow human being?
If you can feel love for another person then I believe you have every quality that you need to be loved. It is just that some of us have to wait a long time to find anyone who resonates with us. The greatest thing you can give a person is your love, it is the greatest thing anyone can give and to a person who resonates with you, your love will be perfect. Sex is one way of physically communicating love, it requires no experience or expertise, only a great love to be communicated. Sex without love would seem to me like a conversation where no-one has anything to communicate: empty.
As to family, if you meet the right woman, consider adoption: there are always children who need love.
I know telling you won't make you believe it, but I'll tell you anyway: you are loveable. You may not be able to love yourself, but perhaps you can come to value yourself by letting yourself love others and care about them and expressing that in any small way that you feel able to in that moment: it is a great gift to be able to give. Sometimes you will have no energy to give, and that is okay too. I believe that by expressing love in your life, by expressing your heart in the way you live, in all the choices you make, you naturally find yourself living a life that is filled with love and romantic love may naturally become part of that, but if it does not then the other types of love are very fulfilling in any case.
Don't pursue someone with the aim of getting a relationship, or losing your virginity, in the hope of being able to force yourself into a "normal" life.
"It is no measure of health to to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Krishnamurti | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/2/2007 6:43:19 PM | I agree with the social anxiety...talk to a thearipst....about it...the world goes so fast, we sometimes forget to reach out for help.... | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/3/2007 2:30:13 AM | Thank you all for the advice - but my problems are so deep rooted. I know it might seem like a cop-out, but I need someone to reach out to me. That's why I'm considering loosing my virginity to a prostitute, so that the initial brick wall of being intimate will be gone. I know the do it for money, but surely some of them must be caring and understanding enough to see when a guy needs help. I don't know.
You see, no one has ever reached to me. And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of being 'Mr nice guy' and getting nowhere. I see lots of women with complete jerks, who would not look twice at me. I've been a decent person all my life, and it's never got me anywhere at all. loosing my friend Kevin has made matters worse, because he was trying to help me with my self confidence.
I've found though, that by taking a****ail of painkillers and antidepressants, that I seem to be losing my sex drive. Perhaps that's the best way. Without Kevin, I'm not sure I want to live very much longer anyway, because I miss him more with each day that passes. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:48:44 AM | Get help NOW. I mean today.
That kind of talk is beyond the attention-seeking variety & one of the most notable indicators of actual suicide.
It is rather unrealistic to think that somebody is going to reach out to you when you portray such melancholy negativity about yourself. What possible healthy reason would somebody have for doing so?
Take to heart the good advice given on your other threads & turn your life & self-esteem around. This is most easily done w/ the help of a compotent professional.
Please seek out the services of one soon......
Best of luck to you. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/3/2007 6:36:04 AM | | I am currently getting medical help for the depression, but I know one of the root causes is still being a virgin. I just don't know how to talk to the mental health professionals about it. What do you say to them? What kind of treatments can they prescribe for that? My friends are just too wrapped up in their own lives to care. I manage to put on an act to get me through each day, but when I'm alone at night, that's when it really hits home that I am a failure. I'm getting tired of putting on the act. I'm sick of being in physical pain all the time. I'm completely lost without Kevin. I feel numb. Nothing seems to make any kind of sense any more. I am trying not to go under. Really I am. But I'm just getting so tired. I think I would be better off dead. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/3/2007 7:09:59 AM | I think I would be better off dead.
Nah, people should want to go out on a high note, not a low one...
I was a virgin until I was 30. I remember the pain you are talking about (It was only 3 years ago). But honestly, sex did not magically cure anything. It was not the holy grail I thought it would be. I still get depressed, as much as I did when I was a virgin.
What helped me more was finding a nice person to care for, and one to care for me. The pain from virginity you are experiencing is mainly peer pressure related. It's more important to have a good friend than to have sex IMO.
I know you just lost your friend, and that must be very difficult, but I doubt your friend would want you to wind up dead. That simply is no way to solve this problem.
If you're already seeking medical help for this issue, you need to share everything with the person you're talking to...
Giving up on life is not the answer... | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/3/2007 10:38:29 AM | I have to agree with Barewolf on this...
Torquill,
It's important for you to go out.. Maybe join a gym, or some club, maybe a church? There are many ways to meet people!! The more people you meet, the more friends you'll make, and then they could always have a possible friend for you to date! Make sense??
Once you start getting out, you will feel more confident!
But, as Barewolf said, sex is only a short term solution!! If you want the real thing, then become good friends first!! Really get to know that woman!! Treat her really well, and make sure she does the same for you!! Then, when the moment is right for both of you, then you may become intimate with her!
Everyone deserves to be happy in this world, Torquill!! and the only one who's holding you back from that happiness is YOU!! So, get out there!!!!!!
Best wishes to you! :) | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/3/2007 6:00:51 PM | Most people will find issue with my opinions on this.. but here goes...If we lived in a society that saw sex as sacred and there were women out there who would see it as a sacred and godly act I'd say in a heartbeat find that and discover for yourself that whether or not you feel differently afterwards.. but given that the sex industry is sordid, revolting, and degraded, I don't think you'll find much healing there. Sex can be a very healing act, and I don't believe it always has to be within a serious "relationship". I do, however, feel it always has to be given and recieved with the intention of it's sacredness. I know this is really "out there" but there are people out there who will perform healing and sacred acts of sex. How rare it is. Connecting with another human being in a sexual manner is only one form of healing and can hold immense importance. It can be magnificent. It opens up the chakras and releases so much, if handled correctly, and it's an ancient art. But goddessknows it is not something readily available or even considered much in this day.
By no means do I think that it is the end all of your issues... so please don't think that I believe it is.. but it obviously is something that you feel is a BIG issue for you, so in that way I believe you deserve all the thoughts about it that can be offered.. and I'm just offering a different perspective on it.
I would also offer this thought... find somewhere where you can get some "hands on" healing that is not sexual for now.. Find a spiritual massage professional.. or my favorite.. a Reiki clinic. (i'm reiki level I right now and find it immensely helpful for healing) there are all kinds of healers out there.. it just might give you that "yum" love feeling without the whips and chains. And without dulling your senses with medications that only help you thru the day.. not help you address the cause. The universe has many possibilities darling.. You just need to tap in to that higher power of wisdom... Above all I would advise that you stop every freaking day and pray, meditate or whatever means the most to you and ask for inner guidance... There is love and love and love out there.. tap into the source! The divine is everywhere. Just look here on this thread at how many people are sending you their positive energy!!! You are loved! Just in a way right now that is different than you considered.
Ok.. now that I've shown how weird I am.. I'm going back to my hut and chant. (that was a self inflicted joke people)
best of luck to you! | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 1:46:56 AM | Hello Torquill,
A very hard post to reply to. You are going through a lot and have as a child too. I've never heard of Incel before but can see that it would be difficult to experience. I have no advice or words of wisdom. Yet my heart goes out to you, I'm sorry that you have lost your friend Kevin. Sounds so hard to go though, I've only just recently even had anyone i know die so I can't even relate or know what to say.
There are some days where i wish i had all the answers and today is one of those days, you seem like such a good bloke and hate to see you suffer. All i can do is send you a virtual hug and just know you'll be in my thoughts,
crazylilting | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 6:39:08 AM | | I read this thread yesterday, and as a therapist felt compelled to reach out to torquill (which is what I believe he stated he wanted). He essentially offered in this thread that he is suicidal. I offered an ear and some assistance in finding a good therapist in his area. His response was flippant and rude. I no longer believe anything that he is saying. I think this is a ploy to get people to feel sorry for him and gain some attention. I am saddened and disgusted that someone would use something as serious as suicide in an attempt to get laid! | |
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WNC8
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Joined: 11/17/2005
Msg: 15 | |
| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 9:36:44 AM |
I read this thread yesterday, and as a therapist felt compelled to reach out to torquill (which is what I believe he stated he wanted). He essentially offered in this thread that he is suicidal. I offered an ear and some assistance in finding a good therapist in his area. His response was flippant and rude. I no longer believe anything that he is saying.
myblueshadow: I'm sorry if I missed something, but I fail to locate your offer. Perhaps a different screen name? Dunno. To me, he is honestly depressed. Of course, I'm not a "therapist". | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 10:05:57 AM | WNC8-Sarcasm noted. Hopefully you feel better about the implied insult.
I just meant that suicide is a serious thing. I contacted him by email and got a response that didn't sound too depressed to me. I don't think suicide is something to play around with. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 10:13:05 AM | Okay, just suppose for a second all his heart rending posting is a lie. Why do you suppose someone would do this? Perhaps because they are suffering greatly?! What other explanation could there be? No-one who was contented and happy and feeling at peace could do such a thing...
I take his posts at face value, I don't see how posting this kind of thing could possibly be a tactic to increase his chances of getting laid! What an absurd thing to say. And what a heartless thing to post on the thread of someone who is clearly hurting badly, whether he's inventing the causes or not (I don't think he is for one moment!).
Perhaps someone suffering as deeply as Torquill could be offended and react badly to even the kindest and gentlest offer of help. This should be understood! When you approach a wounded animal trying to help it, often you will get attacked by it because it's hurting so badly. Can we not have this much understanding for a fellow human being in pain?? I am not a therapist, I have no training in psychology or counselling, but I am shocked that someone who is a professional would judge someone so harshly when they are clearly in pain and lashing out randomly should surely be expected.
Today I went to visit a wonderful garden with my special someone. We sat in the sun together and just quietly existed together in the moments, but spoke briefly of Torquill and another on these forums who touched our hearts this morning, and hoped they would find some peace. There is so much suffering in the world, we cannot always help, but we can try not to add fuel to the fire by getting offended if our attempt to reach someone fails. We can't solve people's problems every time, only try to offer a little positivity in their direction, unconditionally and not needing any reaction or result. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 10:34:12 AM | Rune-your opinions are noted and I agree with you to some extent. But I also think that allowing someone to continue to "wallow" in their need for attention isn't any good either. Sometimes people need to be confronted in their opinions and behaviors.
I think that Torquill is filling a need by posting here, but he isn't filling it in a healthy manner. I will not post what he responded to me because I do not think that is fair to him, but I do think that I am smart enough to realize when someone is playing a game. I don't think we should indulge him in this unhealthy attention seeking. If he were an alcoholic and telling us all how much he drank, we wouldn't be feeling sorry for him if he continued to choose to drink despite being offered help. We would, hopefully, confront him about this behavior, and not support the self-destructiveness. Maybe my post did not come across well, and I will take responsibility for that. But I do believe that people need to hold themselves and others accountable for their behaviors.
On a side note, I'm not sure why everyone gets so offended when I say I am a therapist. It is what I do and I am good at it. It doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else. My purpose in pointing it out was to explain the reason that I felt compelled to contact someone who appeared to be contemplating suicide. I have a legal and moral obligation to respond. I was not trying to imply that my opinion is greater than anyones! I am still human and have human emotions, make mistakes, laugh, cry, etc just like everyone else. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 11:26:41 AM | | for the record. i know this therapist girl. she is mildly insane herself. so my advice to people out there, is watch what u say. she actually had me sent to glenn beigh hospital just because i was stalking her. totally unfair, i thought. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/4/2007 1:18:06 PM | I know I'm new to this site.. but not shy about expressing my opinions..
I'm saddened to note the negative direction this thread has taken.. and how it seems to be veering off of it's original course..
can anyone get it back on track with a more positive/encouraging approach? | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/5/2007 5:02:10 AM | I'm sorry if I sounded flippant, or a fraud, or a liar. I've been called that before. It's simply the fact that I can't honestly see what another THERAPIST is going to do to help me. My experience with the mental health profession is this; unless you make a suicide attempt, they do not consider you to be much of a problem. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but I have to tell you all, I believe it to be the case. I've self-harmed twice now. The advice I got? 'oh just be careful. Just make sure your wounds are clean'.
This ain't working. I've been on antidepressants for almost a year now, and whilst it's true, they have helped me with my panic disorder, ( at least that's what I think it was because I have not been diagnosed with anything yet.), I lack the necessary skills needed to attract a partner. I also could not tell if a woman WAS interested in me because I simply do not understand body language at all. My brain simply does not work like other peoples does.
I spend 90% of my time in my room at home, because there I feel safe. I also eat far too much. I know this is unhealthy. But I have no one to turn to. I do not have a social life. People simply ignore me or hurl abuse at me when it suits them. Is it any wonder I hide myself away? | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/5/2007 7:52:53 AM | Hey Torquill. I can completely identify with the idea that a therapist might not be able to help. I would feel just the same way.
Regarding the self-harm, it can be a relief -- making a mark on yourself to express the inner invisible pain, but yes be careful, I landed myself in hospital once because I cut myself when I was really upset and cut too deep. I felt really bad for wasting the nurse's time at the hospital and it was the last time I cut myself like that.
You don't need skills to attract a partner. You need to be able to love and express that love in some way. There are different ways to express and experience love and I think that the main problem most of us have is finding someone who is on the same wavelength as us.
Do what you need to do to feel safe, it's important... Thanks to the wonderful internet you can sit in your room and feel safe and still connect with people. Unlike real life, you always have that little X in the corner that you can click if you need to run away. There are a lot of other people out there suffering in similar ways to you, that without the internet, would never encounter each other at all. Consider hanging out on the Broken Hearts forum a bit, read and see how others are suffering and reach out to offer them comfort. You are not alone. The people who ignore you or abuse you have problems of their own so don't take it too personally. No-one has the answers for you: only you can work them out, but you can work them out, I do believe that. Depression is an insidious beastie, it's very clever in the way it infiltrates your brain and colours everything a shade of bleak. From one who knows the pit of despair, I'm thinking of you, wishing you well and sending you some positive thoughts this afternoon. You can overcome this, not in an instant, but gradually things will get better and you will get out from the pit into the sunshine. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/5/2007 9:09:43 AM | | Thank you. You're very kind. | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/5/2007 10:06:29 PM | | That was harsh Sam I am! | |
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| Incel
Posted: 5/5/2007 10:21:51 PM | Torq,
Man I feel for ya. I say the same as the others. YOu MUST make yourself leave the room. Get a dog! They are the best. They also tend to be a conversation point if you walk them in the park. They make you feel happy etc.
Find a fashion consultant for the clothes. If you can't afford it look at other people and try "conforming" say with a pair of Levi's and a sweatshirt. Try committing yourself to pursuing a mainstream, run of the mill, common, conforming hobby. Not dungeons and dragons or the likes of course.
Put a sign on your mirror that says I am going to have a good day today and make yourself say it every morning. Say hello to everyone you pass, you would be suprised how far that goes. Share a smile with someone from afar. Try very hard to have a positive attitude. You may be in a rut where when you have casual conversation say with the grocery store clerk, it may be all negative. That drives people to the hills. Think very cautiously about what you are about to say and make a concious effort to have it come out positive. Speak of only positive things to your friends even if you have to struggle to find topics. Gauge how this effects their reaction and level of engagement with you. Negativity drives people away. You have to condition yourself to be positive when you get in a rut. Nothing is worth dying over man! Keep your chin up and dedicate yourself to positive endeavors and turning this situation around. You may end up with a wonderful final act of your life. If you still feel depressed on meds, then you are on the wrong meds or the wrong dosage. There are professionals out there who do care long before suicidal tendacies are dscussed. Keep looking until you find someone.
Good Luck man and Sex is only a very small part of life and happiness. Keep your chin up! | |
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