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 Author Thread: Global warming, the new cold war?
 N8_DAWG

Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 1
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 10:22:29 AM
Let it be known that I am not trying to voice a political view, just posing a question I have.

I also don't want this to be about causes of global warming, just an analasis of my question.

Is the reason global warming has been forced to center stage because it has the ability to take on the role that the cold war did?

To me it seems that many who push the global warming issue are ones with an agenda to make American policy seem "bad" rather than trying to "fix" the problem. I relate this to those who cried foul at our policies during the cold war, not because they had a better answer, but only to draw attention to themselves and to smear the polocies that were in place.

Poloticans were able to create much power for themselves and gain many constituents depending upon their views voiced during the cold war. Is this what the problem of global warming will be reduced to? A mere bargining chip for poloticans to iresponsibly throw around, in order to push their agenda.
 Jemue

Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 2
Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 10:40:30 AM
I'd say no, it's about being aware of what is going on and taking care of the planet.

i.e. having responsibility.

It's just the case that forward thinking, responsibility and caring aren't things that are usually associated with policies from that county.
 N8_DAWG

Joined: 3/31/2004
Msg: 3
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 10:59:57 AM
But those that scream the loudest want others to change, not themselves. I tend to see it more as pointing out a problem, not because they want to fix it, but because it makes them look noble and brings them attention. They have found an issue that they can pose in such a way, that to think differently makes one look foolish, just as many did during the cold war. The issue its self has the potential for grave impact on the world, but instead of truly dealing with the issue people put more emphasis on the political views and what can gained from them.
 chamelion2

Joined: 4/2/2007
Msg: 4
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 11:40:13 AM
Where are U coming from?
Sorry, I have been fond of Environmental issues;
I have recently been struck w/the idea, again, that the world is burning up from the inside out & we are indeed, in Hell & other similar ideas ...
New Cold War?
I am picking a side of the fence to be on!
I'm siding w/ Dr. Suzuki & doing unto others ...
The rich power mongers ...
U will have 2 speak to them
I am borrowing this area from my kids
I wish them richer than I
I am just a student
 wvwaterfall

Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 5
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 11:40:59 AM
I think you may be confusing those who scream the loudest with those who the skeptics point to the most often.

Those who are most concerned about climate change are those who study it the closest, the climate scientists, and those who pay closest heed to issues that could impact society beyond the next fiscal quarter or election cycle.

It's a common but falacious argument that those urging climate change action really have a secret political agenda, when in reality those urging climate change action place primary importance on taking action on climate change, and if that means shifting the way we are used to prioritizing our policies then so be it.

It's understandable if you're a skeptic, and see a greater threat from changing things about the way you live than from the direct impacts of a changing climate that you'd accuse those urging those changes of really just wanting you to change your ways, not assure the best future possible for future generations.

Al Gore has become a lightning rod for skeptics, eager to emphasize discrepancies between his wealthy lifestyle and the low carbon footprint practices he espouses. There is another thread here to hash those particulars out.

But there are many, many people from all walks of life and levels of scientific expertise who have embraced the importance of taking action on climate change. True, many of those perceive more opportunities than threats inherent in the types of actions proposed. Transitioning to more efficient use of energy, more sustainable production of energy, preserving biodiversity and green space, moving away from dependence on fossil fuels that force military and political intervention in socially volatile portions of the globe do indeed seem like added benefits associated with emerging climate change policy, but the driving motivation behind those policy proposals is to do all we can to minimize the damage we've already assured through human impacts on the climate.

There's no need for secret agendas. Assuring that our world is as livable as possible is enough motivation in itself.

Dave
 ousu

Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 6
Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 12:16:40 PM
a) What does make you think that Cold War has been over? I would call the period just a truce.

b) I am curious: are you pointing at certain countries or... when talking about those who are not trying to fix the problem but just making the US to look bad.
 HalftimeDad

Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 7
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 12:17:06 PM
Is the reason global warming has been forced to center stage because it has the ability to take on the role that the cold war did?


The role that the Cold War had was that it allowed for the creation and growth of the Industrial Military complex as Eisenhower termed it. The war on Islam is what is currently driving the growth today. All but the most rigidly dogmatic now recognize that Bush could have captured Bin Laden and eliminated Al Qaeda. Instead he radicalized moderate Muslims and made Bin Laden a prophet at a time when he was a pariah.



Poloticans were able to create much power for themselves and gain many constituents depending upon their views voiced during the cold war. Is this what the problem of global warming will be reduced to? A mere bargining chip for poloticans to iresponsibly throw around, in order to push their agenda.


Which politicians? Look at the Presidents elected during the Cold War - General Eisenhower; Kennedy, who won on the platform of closing the missile gap; Johnson, despite overseeing escalation in Vietnam and a ballooning military budget; Nixon, the old Cold Warrior; Carter, but only because after Nixon everyone wanted an honest man for a bit; Reagan, evil incarnate; and former CIA director Bush 1. The Cold War's partisan winners were always the hawks.
 woobytoodsday

Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 8
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 12:22:10 PM
Nope. The new cold war is the War on Terror. And the purpose identical: scare the populace into compliance. Old ploy: shared antagonism. Works very well, BTW.


 marita_b

Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 9
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 2:08:38 PM
the reason global warming has been forced to center stage is,....
because the globe is warming to a degree where things are changing,....

Both poles have ice melting,...that hasn't melted since before Jesus was in shorts,...

Interestingly enough,....the area's of Antartica that are melting and falling into the sea,...is being replaced by Ice growing in are's where the ice hadn't been because it actually has to warm up to snow,... this may also lead to the poles shifting, and reversing,...another one of those things our planet apparently has done a few times,..(and apparently we are overdue for that shift)

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/venus/RevScience.html
http://survive2012.com/geryl1.php
http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tunga/PoleReversal.htm

Hey who knows maybe someday Canada will be the next tropical vacation spot and Mexico will be the great white north,....I wonder what kind of things have been hidden under all that ice and snow,......we knw we have oil,....andsome of the best quality diamonds,....and Gold,....we could become the next superpower,....

nah!!! one megalomaniac in this half of the world is enough,.....

(relax,...just kidding folks)
 spinninwheels

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 10
Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:01:42 PM

To me it seems that many who push the global warming issue are ones with an agenda to make American policy seem "bad" rather than trying to "fix" the problem.


I think that this is a defensive reaction. Speaking from my perspective, people who tread heavily on the environment without any conscience of how their actions, and ramifications thereof, might actually impact our environment…really need to have a reality check, regardless of their country of citizenship.

Now, if the actions of certain nations gov’ts are under pressure, for their lack of action and/or continued avoidance of environmental issues that need to be addressed, is that unfair or unjustified? I think not. If the shoe fits…



Is this what the problem of global warming will be reduced to? A mere bargining chip for poloticans to iresponsibly throw around, in order to push their agenda.


If by that you mean to hoodwink the voters on green issues, and then pass other irrelevant legislation, which proves to benefit themselves or other lobby groups…I should hope not.



But those that scream the loudest want others to change, not themselves. I tend to see it more as pointing out a problem, not because they want to fix it, but because it makes them look noble and brings them attention.


It sounds like you have someone specific in mind already. And if that’s the case, it’s best you just come out and say it rather than pu$$y foot around it.

Granted there will always be people who find the need to thrust themselves into the spotlight, or be the centre of attention. But that is a personality trait, that exists in many different people and ideologies of society, and it is not directly related to being left, right, liberal, green, etc.

Again, I can only speak from my perspective. The choices that I make, regarding how I might impact the environment or not, come from a general compassionate attitude that I hold for the environment. I can’t speak for everyone else, whom may have been accused of being green, or a tree-hugger, but I can only surmise that they too, also feel a certain compassion for mother earth.

As for what your politicians intentions are? That’s for you to decide - on election day.
 Nightcowboy

Joined: 10/8/2006
Msg: 11
Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/7/2007 11:00:39 AM
I like the ironey of that phrase "Global warming, the new cold war?" lol these clueless environment hippie types aren't smart enough to realize even if Canada exceeded the kyoto targets it wouldn't matter.It would be like what if Chad cut its polution by 100% the world wouldn't even notice.The US,Russia and China are the biggest poluters they need to reduce what they produce before you start to see an impact.We need cars that are lighter and use something other then gas and oil but the car makers,oil companies,gov'ts that collect taxes from these people etc don't want you to have a car like that,They want you to buy thier cars,burn their gas ect.You want to stop green house gasses,Co3 ect this is where you have to start.Dopey protest marches,raising money for the environment (all your doing is lining someones pockets and it won't do jack for the environment) asking scum bag celebraties to sing and dance is a waste of time.What happened to the EV1 ? electric vehicle .If we drove cars made out of aluminum with plastic doors,hood ect and only weighed a 1000lbs with 500miles to the gallon I guarentee it would hurt the environment alot less then the current top selling SUVs people are still buying now.
 marita_b

Joined: 6/15/2005
Msg: 12
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/7/2007 12:08:23 PM
Global warming can not be the next cold war,...

because there isn't a them,...and us,....

becase we are all a part of the,.... US!!!!!,....
wherever you live on this globe what ever you do,...or fail to do will affect,...

ALL OF US,...
regardless of where we live,....and what language we speak,....
or God we pray at,....all is irrlevant,...but what we do,.....
and what we fail to do,....

I think the need to stick titles and lables on everything is very silly,....

you can not declair a war with an intangible,....
because it can not mount a defense,...however

if you declair war on the planet,...we all loose,...

and guess who wins?

want a hint????,..................ask Mars
 slysterling

Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 13
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/7/2007 6:10:48 PM

Global warming, the new cold war?

very creative thread title...here's some of the warm and cold of it:

SCIENCE NEWS
May 04, 2007
Climate Change Is Happening, Effects Will Be Severe, Now What Will It Cost to Fix It?
Could it be true that staving off the severe effects posed by climate change won't impose ruinous costs? The IPCC thinks so
=============================



CLIMATE CHANGING?: Traffic moves at half a mile an hour on Sukhumvit Road in Bangkok, Thailand. Such vehicles contribute roughly one-quarter of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.
Bangkok, Thailand, represents one future for global transportation. Short trips last hours, whether by bus or car, and by evening traffic can average half a mile an hour in some spots, far slower than walking speed. Bangkok's nine million or so denizens support two million personal vehicles. "Unfortunately, the personal vehicle has become sort of synonymous with being a rich, civilized person," notes Steven Plotkin, a transportation energy analyst at Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois. "It's one of the first things you buy when you get some money together."
Worldwide, the desire for automobiles and the traffic it inspires burns fuel at an alarming pace, contributing to an ever increasing amount of greenhouse gases, particularly carbon dioxide. As the new report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) released today in Bangkok reveals, cutting back on those emissions is a critical task.

Worldwide emissions of all greenhouse gases have nearly doubled since 1970 thanks to a rise in the worldwide use of energy, whether fuel in cars or electricity from a coal-fired power plant. In that time emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) alone rose by "about 80 percent," according to the report, with 28 percent of that increase occurring since 1990 alone. Nothing in sight will check this rise: cars are only getting more popular and more of the world is consuming coal-fired electricity. China alone added 90 gigawatts of coal-fired power plants in 2006, roughly equivalent to the total power production of Germany, according to Richard Bradley, head of the energy efficiency and environment division at the International Energy Agency (IEA) in Paris.

If CO2 levels in the atmosphere—currently 379 parts per million (ppm)—reach roughly 550 ppm, scientists estimate temperatures would rise by three degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) on average. Such a rise would have a host of impacts, ranging from shrinking glaciers (and imperiled supplies of fresh water) to extreme weather events and natural disasters such as forest fires and pest outbreaks, according to the IPCC.

Fortunately, a range of options exist to attempt to mitigate the amount of CO2 and other greenhouse gases emitted into the atmosphere. First and foremost is simply using energy wisely—so-called energy efficiency. "The most benefit with the least cost would come from energy efficiency," argues Harlan Watson, the senior climate negotiator for the U.S. "If we are going to address climate change in the long run we have to reduce and indeed reverse the growth in global emissions. The best way to do that is to employ a portfolio across many sectors."

For example, the report calls for more efficient buildings. "For new buildings, this runs the gamut from proper insulation; good windows; energy-efficient heating, cooling and ventilation; efficient appliances and plug loads that have much-reduced standby losses," says Mark Levine, a senior staff scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. "It will be possible as time goes on to construct commercial buildings that are much more energy efficient than at present." And it doesn't have to cost more. The report notes that "by 2030, about 30 percent of the projected [greenhouse gas] emissions in the building sector can be avoided with net economic benefit."

From increasing the use of low-carbon sources of energy such as nuclear and solar power to reducing the nearly 13 megahectares (about 50,200 square miles, or roughly the size of New York State) of forest cleared every year (which contributes roughly 5.8 gigatonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere annually), the report lays out ways the world can reduce emissions. Even transportation can be improved. "You can double the efficiency of the U.S. fleet [of vehicles] with technology that is in existence today," Argonne's Plotkin says. "It just takes the will."

Of course, transportation shows how difficult it will be to achieve the long-term goal of nearly eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from all sectors. "Decarbonizing will require a dramatic change in the energy supply infrastructure," notes David L. Greene, a transportation analyst at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. Options include hydrogen fuel cells, electric hybrids fueled with biomass or electric cars that plug into the grid. "There is not enough biofuel," Greene adds. "So you will need hydrogen or electricity to decarbonize surface transport, plus strong policies to ensure that the carbon emissions from producing these energy carriers are sequestered."

Such carbon capture and storage will be critical to any efforts to combat climate change, particularly if coal continues to play a large power generation role. Unfortunately, sequestration has yet to be demonstrated on a large scale. Significant government funding will be required to prove this technology, admits James Connaughton, chairman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality. "This report underscores the need for collective action, underscores the need for action across all sectors of the economy, and underscores the need for some breakout technologies in fossil fuel power generation as well as in the area of fuels," he says. "The goal is reducing emissions and growing economies."

The report also provides estimates of what such changes might cost. These estimates range from an actual improvement of overall economic health to a loss of as much as 3 percent of global gross domestic product by 2030, depending on what level of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is targeted. But "costs may be substantially lower under the assumption that revenues from carbon taxes or auctioned permits under an emission trading system are used to promote low-carbon technologies," the report notes; associated health benefits, such as decreased particulate pollution from cars, could make stringent action economically beneficial.

"The IPCC report demonstrates that costs can be manageable if action begins soon and is clearly articulated," IEA's Bradley adds. "Because of the long-lived nature of the energy supply capital those investment decisions are needed now."

That will require leadership on both domestic and international levels from the U.S., the world's largest developed emitter, which has yet to commit to international reduction targets or even a preferred level of atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases. "The U.S. taking a step is the next major thing to happen," says Billy Pizer, a senior fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based think tank Resources for the Future. "I don't know if it's going to happen in this administration but I think it's possible. It is not impossible to imagine this president coming up with a proposal."

Voluntary measures, like those the U.S. government currently employs, will not be enough. "Voluntary measures will not work, though they have some very modest impact," says Charles Kolstad, an economist at the University of California, Santa Barbara. "Countries need to take actions that provide incentives to individuals and businesses to reduce carbon—a price needs to be put on carbon."

According to the report and its authors, whatever action governments undertake will need to be faster than the sluggish flow of Bangkok traffic. "Mitigation efforts over the next two to three decades will have a large impact on opportunities to achieve lower stabilization levels," the report says. In transportation, it offers mandatory fuel economy standards and better infrastructure planning as ways to both avoid the nightmare of catastrophic climate change and urban gridlock.

"The short term is efficiency," Argonne's Plotkin says. And in the longer term? "Urban form has a big effect on how people travel and also what kinds of public transportation you can have. This is a long term thing but you have to start somewhere soon."


http://www.sciam.com/
=============================================

SCIENCE NEWS
May 07, 2007
No Reef Relief: Warming Abets Coral Disease in Australia's Great Barrier Reef
Warming ocean temperatures don't just bleach coral, they also leave the tiny creatures vulnerable to a mysterious disease
=======================================

Corals under temperature stress blanch, expelling symbiotic algae that hide the white skeletons below them. But this coral bleaching is not the only phenomena that renders the tiny creatures ashen and lifeless: So-called white syndrome spreads across coral in the South Pacific in the wake of warming events. The two catastrophes can be distinguished by the ways they leave their palls of pale death. "White syndrome moves across in a band," says marine biologist John Bruno of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, as if a pathogen is moving from neighbor to neighbor. On the other hand, "bleaching is a whole-colony phenomena." Now, a longitudinal study designed to assess the health of coral in Australia's Great Barrier Reef has revealed that thriving clusters of coral are more susceptible to the mysterious white syndrome than their less densely packed peers.
Bruno and his colleagues surveyed 48 colonies spread over 1,500 kilometers (932 miles) of the Great Barrier Reef every year for six years. The team measured general health and looked specifically for outbreaks of white syndrome. The cause of this affliction is unknown, but by comparing the health data they gathered with satellite measurements of ocean temperatures, the scientists were able to confirm that the disease tends to follow summers with higher than usual sea surface temperatures. They also discovered that only thriving reefs—where tiny coral polyps cover 50 percent or more of the ocean's bottom—suffered from the syndrome, according to their paper in PLoS Biology. "The irony is that the healthiest reefs are the ones where the disease outbreaks are occurring," Bruno says.


Image: ELIZABETH SELIG
WARM WATERS: Warm waters cause a host of problems for coral reefs like Australia's Great Barrier Reef, including white syndrome.
Because scientists do not know what causes white syndrome, it is impossible to say why denser reefs suffer more. But it is possible that, just like in human cities, proximity gives a pathogen a better chance of spreading. Corals compete with their neighbors, Bruno says, attacking them at night with special tendrils. "It could plausibly open up lesions that allow a bacteria to colonize the coral tissue," he says.

Determining the exact cause of white syndrome, which was first observed only about a decade ago, will require parsing the hundreds of bacteria that thrive in corals' mucus secretions. One thing is clear, however: rapidly increasing temperatures are subjecting the tiny animals to undue stress. "It is faster than they can acclimate," Bruno says. "Coral reefs are an ephemeral feature of the ocean. The concern is that we are going to lose the habitat that they create when they are super-healthy."

=================================
 slysterling

Joined: 1/9/2007
Msg: 14
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/7/2007 6:20:19 PM

....The third kind of devastating event is less dramatic but more likely than the other two. Global climate change could, and very well might, cause the gradual melting of the Antarctic icecap as well as the gradual expansion, by warming, of ocean water volume. In time, some experts think, sea levels could rise by several dozen to perhaps 200 feet. If this were to occur, coastlines around the globe would indeed be radically redrawn -- not precisely as depicted by Scallion, but close enough to be of grave concern.

A wildcard in this scenario is the remote possibility that a large piece of the Antarctic ice sheet could break loose and slide into the sea. Such an object would be perhaps one mile thick and several hundred miles on a side. The force of its sudden descent into the open ocean would raise a tsunami thousands of feet high. While this wave would somewhat subside before hitting, say, the coastlines of northern Europe, many coastal areas of the world would be greatly devastated by such an event. Again, millions could be killed outright, whole cities wiped away, and countless millions more would be displaced and put at risk in the chaotic aftermath.

This scenario most closely approximates the earth changes prediction of Gordon-Michael Scallion. In point of fact, a large amount of coastal inundation, whether sudden or gradual, is quite likely before the end of the coming century. Depending upon the somewhat unpredictable pace and degree of global climate change, coastal inundation could continue building for several hundred years to come.

http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000037.html
 Wookie50

Joined: 4/9/2006
Msg: 15
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/7/2007 6:26:06 PM
[To me it seems that many who push the global warming issue are ones with an agenda to make American policy seem "bad" rather than trying to "fix" the problem. I relate this to those who cried foul at our policies during the cold war, not because they had a better answer, but only to draw attention to themselves and to smear the polocies that were in place.]

This kinda sounds like voicing a political view. Then and now there was a debate about how to handle it. The right has a real problem with labeling dissenting views as making America seem bad.
 chin_chin

Joined: 1/13/2007
Msg: 16
Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/7/2007 6:45:37 PM
I don't think it's the new cold war...it's a different kind of war. A war run by retailers and manufacturers. It's actually the orginal environmental movement that has been highjacked, labelled and is now profiting from such a change.
What I hate about global warming talk is that people will go out and buy a new bottle of soap with a "bio" friendly label on it without wondering, what makes it bio friendly? what other products does the company make that aren't and why do I need it? From disposable toilet brushes to the swifter...we are our own worst enemy. It can't be sustainable and disposable...which would you rather have?

Sorry to completely ignore the topic of the OP...it happens sometimes.
 jacobite45

Joined: 2/6/2007
Msg: 17
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Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/8/2007 3:07:01 PM
It is hard to talk about global warming right now without being political. The reality is that many nations of the world are looking for ways to do something about the issue before it is to late, while both the United States and China ( the two biggest contributers to the problem right now) have Govt's that are opposing change or are trying to cast doubt on the findings of the worlds scientists. In the U.S. it is said that the majority of Americans see Global Warming as real and as something that needs to be reversed so why isn't it more of a political issue from the Democrats right now as part of the Presidential Election Season. So far, to my knowledge, only Sen Edwards has taken a stance among active candidates.
 Hiking Maniac

Joined: 3/29/2007
Msg: 18
Global warming, the new cold war?
Posted: 5/8/2007 3:44:27 PM
To answer your question, you should look at who benefitted from the cold war vs who will benefit from the global warming BS. In both cases, fear was/is the tool of the beneficiary.

The Soviets were a bloated gov't entity (socialists) who lacked a real ability to fight a war on a global scale for more than 30 days. By fearing them, our gov't benefitted and was able to grow.

The global warming stupidity is going to...ta da - grow the gov't (surprise). Global warming has nothing to do with man's actions. David Suzuki is just another parasite who has lived off the gov't for his whole life. He thinks socialism is the moral high ground. He should have another look at Russia. The IPCC is the lie told 1000 times. It is full off bureaucrats (non-scientists) who control the purse strings to the gov't heeled scientists. Global warming has been thoroughly debunked by anyone who cares to explore the issue. Al Gore/Michael Moore's phony movies have also been debunked. Has anyone noticed that such a big issue has never been openly debated at a head to head forum? Why? Because religion demands faith, not information.

The cold war/global warming are the same thing in the sense that they both project fear and fallacy at the gullible (electorate) with the intention of removing power from the productive business class and handing it to the timid, ignorant political class. When the idiot takes power (Al Gore) we will see the inside of the Soviet Union.
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