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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 2:23:04 PM | There seems to be a prevalent number of non-believers on here whose main issue with Christianity, seems to be the idea of eternal damnation, from a loving God. I’ve seen this said more than once and on many a thread, “If God loves us all, why would he damn some of us?”
Based off of what I know about Christ and God, I pose a different way of looking at it. It is not God who damns us, but we who damn ourselves. That ultimately, it all comes down to our own choice. I give two analogies to explain my view.
First Analogy:
You are standing on the steep slope of a hillside. Below you lay a lush and inviting valley. Above you extends a treacherous cliff face. The entire area is unstable and earthquakes plague the whole of the land. Down in the valley a dark fog is moving in obscuring everything, blocking all sight of what lay behind it. A man climbs down from the cliff and approaches you, saying “I have come to save you.” You ignore him, since there is nothing you know of, to be saved from. So he goes on to explain that the earthquakes are caused by, that which approaches from behind the cover of fog, and that everything in its path will be destroyed. He further states, that if you go with him, he will show you the way up the cliff, to a place of safety. There, neither the fog can obscure your view, nor can the earthquakes destroy the land.
Once again you ignore him, because you’re not in the fog, and the ground you’re on seems pretty stable. He explains that, in due time, all the land below the cliff will be shrouded in fog, and eventually all the land will be destroyed, even the place where you stand. He tries to show you all the signs that point to the fact that the ground you’re on is not as stable as you think, and why it’s going to crumble. He doesn’t force you to make a choice, but provides you with knowledge, so that you can freely make a choice that can save you from the devastation ahead.
No forced damnation, just choice.
Second analogy:
Aliens arrive. They speak of how long they’ve searched for us and how rejoiced they are to find us. They talk of how all they want is to be near us, learn about us as individuals, and to fellowship and rejoice together with us. They invite every last human to travel back with them to their home world where all our needs will be met. A place where there are medicines for whatever ills we suffer, and cures for all disease. Not only can they stop the aging process, they can reverse it, allowing us to live at what ever age we want to. They speak of the great discoveries they have made and how they want to share all that they know with us.
Unfortunately, they also bear bad news. They warn us of an approaching meteor that when it strikes earth, it will wipe out the entire human race. They again invite all humanity, but inform us that there is a condition. Due to the way their technology functions, the only way we can travel with them, is to leave all our earthly possessions behind. They aren’t damning us, just informing us of our situation. They are providing an out, but in order for us to accept it, we must show some sacrifice. If a man refuses to give up his possessions, and stays here to be killed when the meteor hits, have the aliens damned him, or has he damned himself?
So, once again we are given knowledge of our situation. We are shown that we will suffer if we don’t take action, and we are given instruction, on what action to take, in order to reach safety.
That’s what Christianity is supposed to by about. Not the pomp and circumstance, of ceremony, and tradition that you see in church. Not the hypocrisy of others, but one person as an individual receiving knowledge of their situation, wisdom to understand the downfall of their situation, and grace to guide them out of their situation.
Any and all comments are welcome | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:21:25 PM | | In your scenarios, there's proof that the man and the aliens exist. With Christianity, there is no proof. If God is real, then he would let us decide after proving himself to exist. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:22:50 PM | | Eternal Damnation for one lifetime of sin does not sound fair. the Bible makes god sound like a Jerk with a huge egotistical outlook that is somehow too human, and yet is completely seperate from us. i think the Hindus got it right with the concept of liila. there is nothing to be saved from, because essentially you cant escape God if God is EVERYWHERE and EVERYONE. God is experiencing itself in many different faces and forms just because, and we look for God in books and philosophies and await a reward in heaven, when really and truly God was right there all along and all we had to do was recognize. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:24:51 PM | There seems to be a prevalent number of non-believers on here whose main issue with Christianity, seems to be the idea of eternal damnation, from a loving God. I’ve seen this said more than once and on many a thread, “If God loves us all, why would he damn some of us?”
I wouldn't say it's their main issue, but a contributing factor.
Based off of what I know about Christ and God, I pose a different way of looking at it. It is not God who damns us, but we who damn ourselves. That ultimately, it all comes down to our own choice
And that's fair, I see where people would see that. After all God gives you the choice to either say Yes or no, correct? See, I see it as follows:
My earthly father (altho he isn't with me any longer) loved me. Unconditionally. If I did something wrong, I was scolded, I was spanked, I was talked to, etc. I was taught that there are consequences for my actions. I ultimately got to decide whether I wanted to or didn't want to do something..that's where my freedom came into play...but it was also known that if I made what would be the wrong choice, that I would have to deal with the fallout from that and I would have to be held accountable. Makes sense, right? So this is where the comparision of, "The Heavenly Father" and my Earthly Father end. See...my earthly father at the end of the day, whether I made the "right choice", or the "wrong choice", would say "I love you...Welcome Home", and welcome me with open arms, an embrace full of love, compassion and understanding.
That is what unconditional love is. If it's not practiced as above, it's love with conditions. And that's where the Bible fails, in my opinion. My earthly Father wouldn't say to me, "I love you..but guess what? You have to leave me now". So for myself..that is a problem for me.
So, once again we are given knowledge of our situation. We are shown that we will suffer if we don’t take action, and we are given instruction, on what action to take, in order to reach safety.
There is a thing as wolves in sheeps clothing. How is anyone to not know that the Bible is just one of those things? I understand blind faith, I understand beleiving in something you can't see, feel, etc is the exact definition of faith. But it's the point that there are hundreds of different religions many which pre-date christianity, so why should anyone to beleive that christianity is the "right" religion? Simply because someone you don't know says so? Or simply because a book proclaims it to be truth?
No. People are creatures that like to have tangible evidence. If you are putting time into a project, you want to see the results. If you are investing money in the stock market you want to see the results. So I would think that if you are going to make the decision to live your entire life based upon a specific diety...I'd hope that you would want to see the results there too, and not just indulge in it blindly.
Not the hypocrisy of others,
Unfortunately, when your Holy Book consists of hypocrisy and contradictions to start with, that's why the people that follow it tend to live it.
Having said all of the above, I get your main point of "well you can decide to follow Christ or you don't". But again, life is not plain black and white. It's not so cut and dry, and it isn't something where anyone should sit back and say "well either you do or your don't, your choice".
Ok..off my soapbox for now.
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:26:00 PM | | In your scenarios, there's proof that the man and the aliens exist. With Christianity, there is no proof. If God is real, then in order to fit into one of your "analogies," he would let us decide after proving himself to exist. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 6 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:26:20 PM | Because christianity is very much a religion based on fear of negative reprecusions instead of advancement of your "soul" for the sake of spiritual evolution. In christianity you are encouraged to act blindly and follow rules instead of questioning who you are and what your place in the cosmos really means.
In short christianity is a religion that stifles and hinders any real spiritual advancement. Just like Islam and most other monothestic religions.
"Follow these rules and accept what I say or be damned to eternal suffering"........is the underlying premise of the religions. I don't think thats healthy one damn bit. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:28:00 PM | I know I said I couldn't make it but... how can I resist?
I like your analogies, the alien scenario would make a good short story, I’ll bear that in mind for a future write maybe. You have given it much thought, this imagined sequence of events. The problem isn’t with what you say, but with what you relate it to. Humankind was given (gifted some might be inclined to see) a series of books to use as their passport to life and how it should be lived. Unfortunately, we are informed, it is based on faith. Not only is it based on faith it cannot be taken for granted that the contend holds true to its original text. For me there are many, many issues therein I find bewildering. What I see are obvious contradictions, lack of benevolence and perverse inhumanity, most of it either inflicted by the God or presided over by the said God. Then I hear zealous folk taking it as literal truth which only leaves me colder still. My belief of a God is somewhat different, and I am not talking of a God that ghost writers make known. Having studied many religions and even been baptized, I have been called many things, including the derogative apostate. No matter, I don’t dwell on such things. I actually feel sorry for those who cannot see past the pages of the bible. I don’t condemn them. I believe they have been misguided by it.
Okay, so now you have it... where does this leave choice? | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:36:53 PM |
There seems to be a prevalent number of non-believers on here whose main issue with Christianity, seems to be the idea of eternal damnation, from a loving God. I’ve seen this said more than once and on many a thread, “If God loves us all, why would he damn some of us?”
According to the Christian Bible: In the beginning there was no sin. No knowledge of sin. Adam and Eve lived blissfully naked in the Garden of Eden.
God for some unknown reason decided to put a tree of knowledge in the garden then say *no no....don't eat from that*
Now if you have an innocent child, has no clue what punishment is, and you put a cookie right in that childs way and say, you can do whatever you want, just don't eat the cookie, what do you think is going to happen?
God set man kind up, then said....ok well maybe I will forgive you if you decide you like my son and want to follow him. Of course this is after he flooded the earth, mass murdered people and was generally a mean God. So your anology of this wonderfully kind being saying...*hey come on follow me I'll make it ok* is really kind of leaving out a few of the facts. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:46:51 PM | OP, I think you are on the right track... And so are all the posters that bring up the fact that your examples imply that it's taken for granted that the bearers of the good news really exist (aliens, cliff rescuer), but God has to be believed by faith.
As always, this reminds me of the rich man and Lazuras. Long story short, the rich man was in hell and wanted Lazuras to come back from the dead and go tell his family to repent so they won't go to hell. Abraham tells the rich man that they have Moses and the prophets (the bible), listen to them. The rich man insisted that Lazurus should rise from the dead to warn them, but Abraham went on to say that even if a man rose from the dead, they wouldn't believe... (Luke chapter 16, by the way)
Jesus knew that people wanted undeniable proof. OP, I think you should figure out a way to adjust your examples with this in mind. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:52:17 PM | I agree that many focous to much on the Bible. Christ is a living God. Your relationship with him is supposed to be alive also.
I see in no way that true Christianity hinders spiritual growth. If you accept that the ground your own is weak and have learned to see the signs to when the earth will crack, and have accepted the man's offer to be shown the way. Then you know where you are in the cosmos, what lies behind you, what lies ahead, and how to get to the place you want to be.
If you find your world crumbling around you, it's not that you have been damned, you just never chose to move out of the way.
As far as Heavenly Father / Earthly Father. Just as your earthly father can't force you to come home at the end of the day (even though he loves you and hopes you do) Our Heavenly father is the same way. The choice is yours. If you chose to return home He will be there with open arms. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:57:14 PM | nice analogies but I recommend the following changes in order to provide a more accurate comparison:
Instead of aliens/outsiders make it a local who has lived in the valley his entire life.
Have him demand that other residents in the valley tithe part of their income to hear him speak.
Have him contradict himself many times and tell outright lies. Then have him say don't worry about that stuff I said, I just misinterpreted something.
Have him talk about a peaceful, loving god that commits mass murder. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 3:57:32 PM | As far as Heavenly Father / Earthly Father. Just as your earthly father can't force you to come home at the end of the day (even though he loves you and hopes you do) Our Heavenly father is the same way. The choice is yours. If you chose to return home He will be there with open arms
That would only work IF when I die...I find myself at the pearly gates and say "gee there IS a God" and at that point he says to me "Do you want to come home...or no, it's your choice". That's the only way you can compare it. Going by the Bible, you aren't given that chance. It's do it now or never. And that's not fair. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:06:20 PM | At that point you've already made a choice. If you don't return to Him in this life, then you don't return to Him.
insanity = repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome
If you haven't returned to God, you aren't in the process of returning to God, then there is no evidence to show that you will return to God.
God says he will give us signs and put others in our path to show us He exists. If this level of proof is not enough than what is? There is no answer to this question.
People don't believe because they don't want to believe. There's never enough proof, and always an excuse.
What lies did Christ tell????? | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 14 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:13:51 PM | Is an unprovable statement a lie persay? No.
But the essence of christianity REQUIRES faith, and much of the dogmatic teachings require unqestioning BLIND faith.
that is hard for people to swallow. Why on earth should we be required to beleive preposterous things based soley on claims made in a book that was written (in teh modern adaptation) so that a kind several hundred years ago could justify his political actions?
Bottom line is that religion requires faith. You shouldn't be asking why people don't beleive in it, you should be asking yourself why you are capable of accepting an uprovable riddle as a guide to how you live your life. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:26:26 PM | I see nothing unprovable. I see something that regardless of how much proof is provided there will be those who do not accept. What good is it to prove something that people will still chose to deny. It's a waste of energy.
The whole aspect of freewill is that things won't be forced on you. If God forced proof of Himself on you there would be no choice.
I have experienced to much in life that coincedes, to just leave it up to coincedence. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:40:00 PM | As Concertina has pointed out, these are false analogies.
If God forced proof of Himself on you there would be no choice.
Sure there is, just as there is choice in the analogies you presented, with a real, tangible man and real, tangible aliens.
Rather than the reality of choice, I would say we have a choice of realities:
god(s)/ no god(s)
hell/ no hell/ limbo/ this life is hell
heaven/ no heaven/ this life is heaven
I honestly don't know/ don't really care
etc., etc. etc.
To say that it boils down to "I choose heaven" or "I choose hell" is not only simplistic, it constitutes a false dilemma. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:44:56 PM | "I see nothing unprovable. I see something that regardless of how much proof is provided there will be those who do not accept."
That's the moral of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. No matter how amazing the proof is, there will always be doubters. I expect that the next response will be that the Bible is not amazing proof...
OP, I think that this is where you should focus your analogies.
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:52:39 PM | Just to the OP, for starters:
Based off of what I know about Christ and God, I pose a different way of looking at it. It is not God who damns us, but we who damn ourselves. That ultimately, it all comes down to our own choice. I give two analogies to explain my view. Interesting analogies, I have to admit. However, you've omitted an important point. In the first scenario, the guy offering to take you up the cliff, if all his information is correct (and he's supposed to represent God or Jesus), has conspicuously failed to mention that he was the one who originally set the whole chain of events into motion. Likewise, if the second analogy is to be borne out as a parallel to the Bible, don't you feel the aliens ought to mention that they've also got the technology to avert the meteor, what with having set it on its course in the first place?
No forced damnation, just choice. What's the origin of damnation?
We are shown that we will suffer if we don’t take action, and we are given instruction, on what action to take, in order to reach safety. *sound of "Jeopardy" buzzer going off* We are shown that we will suffer if we don't take a precise action that simply "happens" somehow to be of benefit for those offering safety. I'll admit suspicion, if you'll admit it's a suspicious setup. Then, we go into the whole "given instruction" gig. Not so much to take action for ourselves, anymore, mind you. But, we're to "reach safety" as a result of handing over all claim to critical thought and simply follow someone else. Here's another point where the analogy breaks down, then. Where are the "aliens" in reality? In a book? In the minds of those who insist the book simply must be what they'd like to believe it is? My question (my big one, really) is this: Where are the "rogue" aliens with consciences and souls, willing to concede that mankind should have the right to determine truth on its own? Where are those aliens willing to show evidence of this meteor? And, where are the ones who will put forth the effort, and take the time (assuming they truly care) to show humanity how to save itself? | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 19 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 4:57:43 PM | | Orly Nate? You have seen proof of the existence of God? Please, by all means....show me some hard scientific proof. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 5:09:40 PM |
I see nothing unprovable. I see something that regardless of how much proof is provided there will be those who do not accept. What good is it to prove something that people will still chose to deny. It's a waste of energy.
You are right in stating that it is a waste of energy. There is the "new" religion of John Dewey and followers whose goal is to completely secularize society and remove all residue of religions that put faith in the supernatural (seems to be the majority of posters). Mankind is his own god, his own discerner of truth and decider of right and wrong. This not only moves us into an "uncultured" society (as writers from Shakespeare to Faulkner allude to the Bible), but brings us once again full circle to Rousseau, Bolsheviks, Nazism, Chairman Mao and Castro. We all know how well these countries flourished under their own "value" system upon the defeat of the church. Give it up OP, there is nothing new under the sun. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 7:09:01 PM |
As far as Heavenly Father / Earthly Father. Just as your earthly father can't force you to come home at the end of the day (even though he loves you and hopes you do) Our Heavenly father is the same way. The choice is yours. If you chose to return home He will be there with open arms.
See the earthly father is tangible, you know he's there. A Heavenly father is not. When and only when I am face to face with such a being, will I then make a choice. It's not fair to expect a child to beleive in you if you aren't there. Think of it as an absentee parent. Why believe in and love someone and trust in someone that isn't physically with you to whom you've never seen before? It's ridiculous.
SFL: Msg 8...I agree with everything that you said, and like how you broke it down.
In your scenarios, there's proof that the man and the aliens exist. With Christianity, there is no proof. If God is real, then in order to fit into one of your "analogies," he would let us decide after proving himself to exist.
I like this...and I agree entirely.
What good is it to prove something that people will still chose to deny. It's a waste of energy.
I've always said if someone isn't going to beleive something, you can have proof right in front of their eyes and they won't beleive it, so I partially agree with you. However the point is physically..Jesus as a Saviour can not be proved. If he could, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be no such thing as faith, and all would probably be well with the world because either people would be so overwelhmed with love and "rightness" in the world, or people would be following the word of god for fear of burning in hell. Either way, God would win.
The whole aspect of freewill is that things won't be forced on you.
God says "you either love me, accept me and obey and you go to heaven..or you don't and go to hell"? In my opinion it's saying if you want a wonderful glorious afterlife you'll do as I say..or be dumb and go to hell and burn for an eternity. It may not be physically forcing someone or directly saying "you don't get a choice to pick", but emotionally and psychologically...it's forcing someone to make a choice based upon fear...or..selfishness. You pick. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:12:44 PM | OP, I, too, like you analogies about the person being told of the danger he is facing when he is utterly unaware of his danger. The one correction I would make is to remove man's free choice. I know this will anger most readers, but it is the old controversy that goes back to Augustine and Pelagius: how does man believe? Can man believe of his own free will as Pelagius taught, or is his will so corrupted by sin from the fall of man in the Garden of Eden that he can only believe once God regenerates him and gives him a new heart and eyes to perceive his danger.
Your analogies are based on a Pelagian or semi-Pelagian (or Arminian) point of view in which man makes the final decision on whether or not to accept the salvation offered to him to avoid destruction. I believe that the Bible teaches very clearly in Ephesians 2:1-5 that man is dead in sin and trespass and cannot accept the salvation offered to him unless and until he is acted upon by God to bring him back to life. I believe that this is what Jesus meant when he said in John 3 "You must be born again" and what is taught in Ezekiel 36:26-27 when God says, "I will give you a new heart of flesh and take away the heart of stone."
One of the great questions that we as Christians have is, "Why do some people respond to the preaching of the gospel and others don't?" We answer that God chooses some to have everlasting life and then the debate turns to the questions of unconditional election or the foreknowledge view of election. This still does not account for why so many people obviously, from a Christian point of view, reject the offer of the gospel. Semi-Pelagians and Arminians will say it is because they have the free will to reject the gospel.
I, as a Calvinist, will assert that those who reject the gospel are rejecting it because they are dead in sin and trespass. The gospel is foolishness to them. It is an offense. What is life from the dead to the Christian is a stumbling block to the unbeliever. How can two people, living in the same culture, look at the same set of facts and draw such a radically different set of conclusions? As a Christian, I believe that it is because man does NOT have free will to believe. Man is in bondage to sin and can only choose to do what is evil. No one will believe unless and until God monergistically--acting alone--works on that person to change his heart and will to make him come to God willingly. As it says in Jonah 2:9, "Salvation is of the Lord." We do not save ourselves. God reaches down, in my opinion, and saves us in the first act of our salvation.
OP, I agree that the preaching of the gospel needs to include "the bad news" that man is facing God's wrath because of his sin. Too many times modern evangelicals concentrate only on the love of God and neglect to preach the whole counsel of God. This lures people into a false sense of security believing that God would never punish those who reject Him because that is not "loving." They neglect to teach about God's awesome and fierce justice.
I also believe that people overlook the fact that Jesus taught more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. Again, this produces a one-sided picture of Jesus as only teaching "love" rather than teaching about God's righteousness judgment against sin in addition to God's amazing love for sinners. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 23 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:19:04 PM |
Any and all comments are welcome
Okie Dokie.
I would like to know why an omnipotent, omnipresent, all powerful god, one who is capable of creating universes, would want to create something like the human species in the first place? What's the purpose of it?
Your analogies seem basically the same as the carrot and stick principles. The aliens are offering a nice juicy carrot, ie a virtual paradise. The man on the cliff is telling you about the stick if you don't listen to him, ie the earthquakes.
If you haven't returned to God, you aren't in the process of returning to God, then there is no evidence to show that you will return to God.
Logical fallacy, vague similarities. You are asserting that these situations are similar without specifying the properties they share.
You seem to be assuming that "not in the process of returning to god" means "you will not return to god" because there is no evidence to show it.
Absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence, so to speak. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 24 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:38:42 PM |
I, as a Calvinist, will assert that those who reject the gospel are rejecting it because they are dead in sin and trespass.
You assume to know the reasoning of all atheists, jews, pagans, agnostics, etc. Because? This is basically looking down your nose at those who you've been told are "dirty", and you buy into it. It is you who have just passed judgement on persons that you do not even know, your self-righteousness is glaringly obvious. I am good and you are evil because it's what I believe, and what I've been told to believe!!!!
How can two people, living in the same culture, look at the same set of facts and draw such a radically different set of conclusions?
What facts are these?
Perhaps because they are NOT facts, but stories that are subjective to the interpretation of the reader. When you have quoted scripture in the past, you have begun with "I believe this verse means this and that" The fact that you state that you believe, does not necessarily make your interpretation the correct one, nor a fact.
As a Christian, I believe that it is because man does NOT have free will to believe. Man is in bondage to sin and can only choose to do what is evil.
So approxiamately one billion atheists/agnostics/secularists on this planet will only choose to do evil deeds because they don't believe in an unproven deity??
What of those who do believe in christ, yet STILL do evil?
Babies are sinners, yet they have committed no sin.
This doctrine of yours is quite twisted indeed. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 25 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:50:14 PM | "I belive that it is becaues man does NOT have free will to beleive."
Ummm, I could be wrong, but I thought man was given the choice to freely choose between good and evil under the christian religious system....hence the whole deal about the devil trying to influence our morality in order to make us choose to commit evil acts. I mean without free will to choose, what its the point of religion? | |
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