| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 3:17:08 AM | "The fear of God" sound's like a contradiction in terms and more than likely is.
Yes, I have heard (before I'm accused of taking this out of context) that Godly fear is NOT a morbid fear but one of respect.
Well, let's look at that for a moment... How many Christians believe that not worshiping 'God' will merit a passport to hell? (one of many, many, examples)
NOT a morbid fear?
Why is it a sin to question the reality of the biblical god?
Who, open-minded enough, should be fearful of wisdom?
"The fear of God is NOT the beginning of wisdom. The fear of God is the death of wisdom. *Scepticism and doubt lead to study and investigation, and investigation is the beginning of wisdom."
*should lead to study and investigation. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 10:17:23 AM | In my opinion, fear of God has more to do with fear of power exerted in God's name by a person claiming divine right or inspiration - often for personal gain even if they've deluded themselves into believing what they preach.
I do like your ending quote. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 10:55:42 AM | | Thanks Zen, that's a very philosophical answer. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 4 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 3:34:18 PM | Personally I think its more a matter of the dogma being specifically geared to make people fear for their eternity. IE, they are terrified (perhaps only subconciously) of doing something that will forever bar them from the "blessed realm". This in turn makes them more maleable by the power of the chruchstate.
I say churchstate and not church/state because when the basics of what is modern christianity were formed, the governing body was, for the most part, the church. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 3:53:43 PM | | Ender, do you think it's possible to enlighten someone who is otherwise religiously indoctrinated the idea of open-mindedness? | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 6 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 3:59:50 PM | Elighten, no.
De-program....difficult, but doable.
I don't think of any one beleif system as being more "enlightened" than another, by virtue of the fact that we CANNOT know what lies beyond the pale. The only thing I can go on is the evidence that is both measurable, and consistent. There are differing degree's of religious programing, but just as an atheist can "find god" so can one of the faithful "lose their way". | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 4:01:03 PM | | there are none so blind as those who will not see | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 4:48:26 PM | Rockondon, I would to think even the blinded will see one day.
just as an atheist can "find god" so can one of the faithful "lose their way".
I was one who lost their way, but thankfully so. The problem is, those closest remained... I would dearly love to have them enlightened. I've tried very subtly without success. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs really. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 9 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 4:54:16 PM | | Thats the difficult part....the vast majority of intelligent people that have faith also have preconstructed "logic" to defend their position against attack. The ones that aren't as brilliant simply follow through blind faith. The harder you puch someone of faith, the more you affirm their position....just like people that go out and witness to unbeleivers are generally met with anger. Converting someone (whether to a faith, or out of one) is a VERY longterm process that you need to be very careful with. Either that, or someone generally has an extremely life changing event that sways them to one side of the coin or the other. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 4:54:56 PM | Well, for me it was another one of those things that made me believe there is no higher power... We are told that if there is a god that we would never be able to understand it, right? Then at the same time, we are told we should fear it's wrath...
Fear what you don't understand...
Fear THAT! | |
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orngy
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Joined: 4/23/2007
Msg: 11 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/16/2007 7:18:46 PM | I think it's very interesting the point that you have made. I persoanally think it goes much deeper than that. You already know that the fear of God isn't morbid.... according to the bible. I personally am not scared of death, but recognize the importance of obedience..... I serve out of love and what God has done for me. I study countless hours to understand the characteristics of God and to better myself so that I can effectively communicate in love. Am I always successful...no, but it's my hearts desire. I think it's hard to tell what being a "Christian" is now days cause they just blend in with the rest of the world, but than there are those who take it to the opposite extreme and separate themselves completely. The balance is off and now the truth is distorted. The fear of God in the bible it is talking about is out of reverence for Him. It's recognizing that he is Lord and comes first in my life, but it comes from His love that he has given to us.... So in return I want to offer my love to Him in relationship and in truth. It's just a small way of my token of appreciation for the sacrifice He gave.
I think a lot of people don't understand truly because they don't take time to seek the truth for themselves. They take was is given to them like a baby being fed. Instead of challenging it to find the truth. So this complex is developed of fearing what they don't understand. I have searched many places.... I read a lot on other religions and there philosophies. I find it interesting that Christianity is the only one that isn't necessarily based on works, but requires both faith and works. A balance if you will. I consider myself very open-minded and am open to whatever wisdom I can obtain, but know I will carefully and prayerfully meditate on it before making it my own beliefs.
So in conclusion..... maybe you don't understand because either you haven't sought the truth or fail to understand the characteristics of God.
An open spirit who has a desire to know the truth leads to study and investigation, and investigation is the beginning to wisdom that gives true life. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/17/2007 4:40:23 AM | orngy
I think it's very interesting the point that you have made. I personally think it goes much deeper than that. You already know that the fear of God isn't morbid... according to the bible.
Actually, no I don't... this is what I believe. The God of the bible is unclear because of it ambiguity. The text distorts its own messages; this is done IMO to mislead its readers. Those who wrote it bear the greatest shame.
I think it's hard to tell what being a "Christian" is now days cause they just blend in with the rest of the world, but than there are those who take it to the opposite extreme and separate themselves completely. The balance is off and now the truth is distorted.
I'm not sure if you are in favour of the balance or extremes here... the problems I see are failures to agree among Christians... something likened to all professions, to a degree. Faith is flimsy when challenged for answers... Christians see it as a shield to protect them, but 'truth', if truth is what it be, does not require a shield.
I personally am not scared of death, but recognize the importance of obedience..... I serve out of love and what God has done for me.
Let us say that death is not absolute and your spirit (or soul to some) travels the after-life in search of its dwelling place (wherever that may be). You are not physically in any conduction to experience pain or fear.
The balance is off and now the truth is distorted. The fear of God in the bible it is talking about is out of reverence for Him. It's recognizing that he is Lord and comes first in my life, but it comes from His love that he has given to us.... So in return I want to offer my love to Him in relationship and in truth. It's just a small way of my token of appreciation for the sacrifice He gave.
I'm not sure what sacrifices they are (other than the Christ's). I know that (according to the bible) god enjoyed making people sacrifice plenty. If you weigh up the millions this "Loving God" 0r "God of Love" slaughtered against his sacrifice, it does not figure.
I think a lot of people don't understand truly because they don't take time to seek the truth for themselves. They take was is given to them like a baby being fed. Instead of challenging it to find the truth. So this complex is developed of fearing what they don't understand.
'Like a baby needs milk before solids, so too this applies to the scriptures'... I cannot buy this, it has been studied, over and over. In the end it comes back to what I said... You, the reader have to believe that what you are reading has not been tampered with in any way. You, the reader, have to dismiss any notions that there are contradictions therein. But most of all... You the reader must not question God.
I have searched many places.... I read a lot on other religions and there philosophies. I find it interesting that Christianity is the only one that isn't necessarily based on works, but requires both faith and works. A balance if you will. I consider myself very open-minded and am open to whatever wisdom I can obtain, but know I will carefully and prayerfully meditate on it before making it my own beliefs.
I commend you on your open-mindedness, this must be so for many to come here and want to debate without thrusting biblical passages in peoples face.
So in conclusion..... maybe you don't understand because either you haven't sought the truth or fail to understand the characteristics of God.
Truth should be taken with a very large dose of salt. Truth is many things to many people. Cliché, I know but this is the truth.
open spirit who has a desire to know the truth leads to study and investigation, and investigation is the beginning to wisdom that gives true life.
I never though I'd hear these words from a Christian.
The problem is... having the knowledge you then place faith, faith is not required for the truth. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/17/2007 5:07:59 AM |
"The fear of God" sound's like a contradiction in terms and more than likely is. Dunno for sure. Haven't gotten to Ancient Hebrew, yet, but most of the Jews I've discussed this with either implicitly or explicitly lead me to believe that the "fear of God" in the Tanakh and the rest of the Old Testament is intended to be more a "respect for God's authority". As though one could fail to respect the authority of someone who created and maintains the existence of the universe. I guess that's where questioning whether it's true comes in, though. "What if this God you guys worship didn't create the world, etc.?" "Shut up! Fear God!" Or, something to that effect...
Godly fear is NOT a morbid fear but one of respect. I've also come to get the impression it is a morbid fear, at least initially, to respect not God's authority, but His power to f*ck you up if you question. From there, though, once you've acquiesced, you get the opportunity to feel His love, just so long as you keep in mind He's got the "authority" (read: power to f*ck you up). | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/17/2007 5:32:20 AM | As Stones said:
We are told that if there is a god that we would never be able to understand it, right? Then at the same time, we are told we should fear it's wrath...
Fear what you don't understand...
and Feral:
From there, though, once you've acquiesced, you get the opportunity to feel His love, just so long as you keep in mind He's got the "authority" (read: power to f*ck you up).
...and the Greatest power has the Greatest responsibility. One would hope a 'known' God (albeit through the power of 'faith') would see humankind's difficulties (if not impossibilities) with this.
As though one could fail to respect the authority of someone who created and maintains the existence of the universe.
Given indisputable evidence, certainly one could not. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 12:09:26 AM |
Given indisputable evidence, certainly one could not. I worry that this might take me treacherously far afield, but it's got to be said. The problem is not with lacking indisputable evidence, at least not in the first place. When man knows nothing, he'll accept what knowledge he receives. Trouble is, as this relates to religion, when a claim is made and subsequent natural investigation shows the initial claim to be in error, some credibility is lost. Over a couple thousand years, plenty of claims to absolute truth have been disproven, such that enough credibility has been lost on the part of the church that folks want real evidence. As opposed to, say, revealed knowledge that's buried so far in antiquity that even scientists can be questioned as to their credibility when knowledge is uncovered. How this applies to the fear of God, I think is in the respect for authority argument. If you respect the authority that says a thing is a given way, you'll most likely not go investigating, and if you do, you'll not pay attention to contradictory evidence. Back in the day, with little equipment and no methodology, it was nice and easy to keep folks from questioning the world around them. Just call 'em sorcerers and have 'em stoned. Nowadays, it's a bit more complicated than that. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 5:23:45 AM | My biggest axe is blunt on the evidence question, because faith takes the 'need' for it away. The logical response is, yes, have faith, but have faith in something that provides credibility. Humankind is not an audience for magicians, given the magician in this case is unseen. Humankind's problems are with nature, it's moronic to state a hurricane as an 'Act of God'. Outside of nature there is the unknown and the unknowable, this is why science is so important. God cannot explain its invisibility anymore than nature. But at least with science we can understand the reasons, with tangible evidence to support our claims. Is a bible tangible evidence of anything more that the print on its pages?
The text book for nature was written by men, just as the bible, the difference is one asks to be worshipped - the other asks merely to be understood. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 7:08:16 AM |
The text book for nature was written by men, just as the bible, the difference is one asks to be worshipped - the other asks merely to be understood
Poppycock. The bible is not worshipped anymore than a textbook for nature is worshipped. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 7:21:12 AM |
Poppycock. The bible is not worshipped anymore than a textbook for nature is worshipped.
river loon, good day.
You may not worship it but the essence of 'God's word' IS, by many. I have been quoted that the bible is 'God's Kingdom', not merely a collection of books to demonstrate moral codes for humankind.
It is from this perspective I wrote what I did.
How do you see it then? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 7:51:48 AM | Good day skypoetone,
I see a bible as a bible and a textbook as a textbook. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 8:32:54 AM | I see a bible as a bible and a textbook as a textbook.
Oh, come now, in light of what I've expressed, that doesn't express what the extent of the bible means to you, surely. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 5:50:13 PM | There are too many versions of the bible for me to truly have a decent conclusion to my opinion of god.
I would like to be able to believe that there is something after what we call life, that someone is at the controls of life and its not just some downward spiral into oblivion that ends with a big black nothingness.
Unfortunately there are far too many "holy" texts for me to truly believe that one voice spoke, all these people who had visits or visions and wrote them down to contract each other, hence why we have war's now.. surely something so sanctified shouldn't be the cause of so much death? that makes no sense at all.. why if there is only ONE god do we fight each other over what is essentially just "what the other guy said" .. that really is the only fear of god I have, the belief in him is the biggest cause of war on this planet, from the crusades to world war 2 .. the big G has had his hand in there somewere and thats not right whatever way you try to dress it up. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 5:58:58 PM | hey skypoetone,
i gave up on the forums for a while... switched to poetry. but i think that the fear of God is best described by Jesus when he tells the disciples to not fear man who can only kill the body and after that can do no more but our creator can put both body and soul in hell.
sooooo,
Fear of God seems more like a good reason to seek Gods truth instead of mans truth... in another place Jesus says that the pharisees teach the fear of god through commandments of men by continueous training.
sooooo,
what is the fear of God? I think it is remembering that truth belongs to God and not man... hey! here come da judge... believe in the one God skypoetone!
happy foruming | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 23 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 6:04:40 PM |
"The fear of God" sound's like a contradiction in terms and more than likely is.
Not at all. It is fear that keep the flock from roaming, lest you earn the wrath of some god.
Instillation of fear is a POWERFUL tool to be used to help keep people (or the flock) in line. Fear is the sister of control. If you are feared, then you can control. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 6:18:59 PM |
hey skypoetone,
i gave up on the forums for a while... switched to poetry. but i think that the fear of God is best described by Jesus when he tells the disciples to not fear man who can only kill the body and after that can do no more but our creator can put both body and soul in hell.
sooooo,
Fear of God seems more like a good reason to seek Gods truth instead of mans truth... in another place Jesus says that the pharisees teach the fear of god through commandments of men by continueous training.
sooooo,
what is the fear of God? I think it is remembering that truth belongs to God and not man... hey! here come da judge... believe in the one God skypoetone!
happy foruming
I had to check your profile to see if you were being sarcastic.
The whole God Fearing thing and the horrific things that the bible says he does to people were what started me questioning the Bible as a kid.
God is the world's biggest terrorist based on what the Bible says. Osama only wishes he was able to slaughter all first born children in a nation save for his faithful or cause the entire world to flood. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 6:25:23 PM | stutu
what is the fear of God? I think it is remembering that truth belongs to God and not man... hey! here come da judge... believe in the one God skypoetone!
haha! Cheers. I have a god, it's my conscience until the real thing can be realized.
P.S. if you want it poetically, I can accommodate
mak
Not at all. It is fear that keeps the flock from roaming, lest you earn the wrath of some god. Instillation of fear is a POWERFUL tool to be used to help keep people (or the flock) in line. Fear is the sister of control. If you are feared, then you can control.
Yes, this is how I see it... But IF God is Love (and I would like to think it is) I see no reason to fear it. How does one love a multi-murderer... I don't comprehend that. | |
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