DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 1 | |
| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/25/2007 6:10:43 AM | With scientologists focussing their anger of psychiatry and blaming it for everything from the holcaust to contemporary mass control of people, what is it that they dislike so much?
If you read about dianetics, it doesn't seem that different from psychotherapies. In fact, a great many of the ideas that dianetics uses seem completely lifted from pschotherapy, which is of course a branch of psychiatry.
Also, does anyone think that what scientologists say about psychiatry has any vaildity?
I'd like to hear what anyone has to say on any of this and would especially love to hear from people who have been involved with scientology and mental health professionals or former clients. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/25/2007 1:05:58 PM | I've been through the mental health system, and I've gotten the most help from my social worker and group therapy. During the peak of my chronic depression and anxiety, anti-depressants helped stabilized my state of mind and allowed me to recognize where my problems were rooted and through time and therapy have been able to overcome the worst of them. From what I've read, Scientology just basically offers habitual replacement; coping mechanisms replacing coping mechanisms.
There are a few things I don't like about the psychiatry, and that is the pharmaceutical companies. Most of the intentions to expand the mental health industry is there is expand their profit. Myself and other people have had bad experiences with pyschiatrist which have a "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" mentality. These "pill-pushers" who gain perks from corporations to distribute their products to their patients have in my opinion been a thorn in the side of many people, but they are a necessary evil. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 3 | |
| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/25/2007 7:03:49 PM | Intersting points mate.
Certainly in the UK psychiatry had become increasingly chemically dependent. I'ts often hard for doctors who have done little but go to school and study sciences an maths to understand enough about society and individuals to be able to think of ways of supporting people though what are often simply the problems of living, but perhaps magnified beyond most peoples' comprehension.
Scientology seemed to crush not only the critical faculties of followers but is trying to create an environment where they are not allowed to be questioned or challenged. The resources that they put in to investigating, discrediting and litigating against anyone who so much as publicly talks about them is staggering.
I'm just so amazed that people are so daft as to not see the elephant in the room - that these people are using very weak assessment tools and ineffective methods of therapy whist scamming hundreds of millions from them | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/25/2007 8:23:17 PM | Scientologists believe whatever Hubbard wrote. He is the sole fount of their beliefs.
Hubbard hated psychiatry because Hubbard was crazy and didn't like being told so. One of his wives later went on to be a doctor and has asserted he was at the very least manic depressive. He was a raging alcoholic who was always taking pills of some sort for fun and a pathological liar. For a while he was mixed up in satanism with Allistair Crowly and tried to create "the moonchild" - that 666 thing. He eneded up running off with the girl they picked to conceive this thinf (who obviously never did). How own son turned against him and exposed his darker side in an interview in the 70s.
Dianetics had some simple psychotherapy in it. Enough to do some good, but nobody was fooled for very long; Hubbard was beyond greedy and just kept the ball rolling making more and more stuff up to keep the checks rolling in which in the end was all he cared about. He came very close to taking over three countries and for a while had his own navy.
For a really interesting biography of Hubbard, a fascinating man (in the same way Rasputin was) Xenu recommends:
http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm
It's a fascinating cult to read about and clambake.org is the clearinghose for debunking these whackjobs. | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 5 | |
| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/25/2007 9:48:42 PM | It's a fascinating cult to read about and clambake.org is the clearinghose for debunking these whackjobs.
I can assure you that the tools the Scientolgists use do not come from Home
Depot....ummm...ya need a cure? Hands me dat Black & Decker drill will ya's? I'll
give ya dat cure yez askin fer!
Who's insane here?? 
Oh, you guys have to watch this clip.......HILLARIOUS! Watch in this sequence....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqR5NPhtLI&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkh_lMtLbbI&mode=related&search=
"I'm not an expert in brainwashing" - not so smug now is he? The dude showed
an insane side to him...call it anger or whatever, he's LOST his mind in front
of rolling cameras.......the scientologists were rolling their tapes because
they KNEW when exactly he'd lose it. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 6 | |
| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/26/2007 7:29:57 AM | Intersting wasn't it, the recent panaroama documentary.
Panaroma has previously made 2 documentaries which exposed aspects of the CoS so they did all they could to wind Sweeney up. I'm not saying that he wasn't unprofessional but it wasn't just that they had cameras on him then, they filmed him and followed him throughout the weeks he was working on it. Knowing them paranoid, money obsessed lot they are could still be monitoring him now.
When he lost it he had just been made to sit through a 90 min documenentary in which they hold psychiatry responsible for the holocaust, ethnic cleansing in the balkans and pretty much all the ills of mankind.
It seems that they have projected all their own evils and more onto psychiatry. Perhaps, as has been said, because L Ron knew that they thought he was mentally ill so he sought to make them look unstable and dangerous instead. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/26/2007 11:33:31 AM |
.the scientologists were rolling their tapes because they KNEW when exactly he'd lose it
Of course they did. They were screaming at him and he was trying to be heard. The don't show you that part, but you will notice if you see the longer clip he immediatley dropped down to a more civil tone. He apologized for his unprofessional outburst. CoS apologizes for nothing, ever. Look at "operation snow white", Clearwater or the CoS exemptions in the IRS. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/26/2007 9:37:23 PM | the biggest difference between Dianetics and Psychiatry is...Being reactive!
The dianetic tools allow the practitioner to "make certain" the subject is still not reacting to what ever their triggers are.
Psychiatry has no way of truly being able to do this.
Everyone has a past...does it mean he wasn't right just because he may or may not have
been an alcoholic?
Sass | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/27/2007 9:26:27 AM | The "Dianetics tools" were debunked in the 50's; are dangerous and have caused lawsuits for practicing medecine without a license. Scientology has killed people with its "therapy".
The medical establishment is not so stupid as to disregard anything that will help people get well. That dienetics remains a cult is not a coincidnece - a cult that preys on the weak and simple minded.
But if you really believe space aliens planted the souls of aliens on earth in a volcano and that these are the cause of human weaknesses there is nothing anybody can do to stop that.
For a good history of Dianetics and to see what really happened please read the link above. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/27/2007 1:48:39 PM | Whether they were "debunked" or not....I personally know a number of ppl
who have taken Scientology courses and have had amazing results.
Ultimately...whether one feels Scientology is a "cult" or not, the courses that they offer have helped many, many ppl, and continue to do so.
Working in the medical field gives me a great insight into hap-hazzard psychiatry...and it's scary.
Like everything else in life...some things are good for one person, and crappy for another.
Guess it's all in ones perspective and how their own personal body functions. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 11 | |
| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 5/28/2007 5:53:16 AM | RSX11s good points.
It's very interesting that dianetics was and reamain a very crude form of psychotherapy led by people with no psychotherapy training. Hubbard was happy to see it as so until there were many complaints and medical establishment had them prosectuted for practicing medicine without a licence.
So of course he set up the CoS to try to buy it spirutual legitimacy but it lots of governments won't regard it as a religion (inlcuding the UK).
It seems that the process of being laughed at and kicked out of the world of medice and psychotherapy is what caused him to start attacking psychiatry. And there is nothing that they have said about psychiatry which doesn't more accurately describe their own brainwashing cult.
Of course some people may get some early benefits from going over their painful memories. This was hardly a revealtion in 1950 as psychiatry had been developing these techniques for ages. But the techniques and assessment tools that dianetics tools haven't developed since the 50s while psychotherapy and psychiatry has moved on.
But there is a darker problem related to the CoS using their technique of auditiing. They use information gained from auditing sessions about peoples backgrounds, relatives etc against them when they try to leave.
If a psychotherpist used information from sessions to blackmail people and force them to keep paying large amount of money to them it would be shocking. When scientology does it people are too chickenshit to mention it. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/25/2007 9:29:37 PM |
I personally know a number of ppl who have taken Scientology courses and have had amazing results.
Just for comparison: the placebo effect works from 2 to 8% of the time depending on the color of the pill (red is the most effective, white the least) for everything including cancer and faith based healing works up to 15% of the time for some things.
If Scientology did any good besides makeing CoS rich, medical science would embrace it.
If you actually read the URL posted above it's very clear from all indications Hubbard was quite crazed and only cared about money. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/25/2007 10:51:48 PM | rsx11s
Thanks for posting the link... I'll be reading it to see what it says. I expect that it will be interesting. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/26/2007 5:14:51 AM | Scientology has about as much in common as psychiatry as intelligent design has with evolution.
In other words it's crap/ | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/26/2007 7:45:56 AM | Well there is the original intelligent design and then there is version 1, version 1.2........version 99999......to infinity 
A doctor said that if he was the designer of the human body he would not own up to it as it's a poor design, one fault is that the head is too big for the neck to hold the weight comfortably for long hours in front of a computer screen.....so my response (being big-headed with a sore neck) was that's obviously why we're constantly evolving 
Psychiatry is often government funded worldwide and in the past labeled people as crazy if they believed they were more than merely their body and existed as a spirit.
Scient0l0gy is for the elite with lots of dough or those willing to live their lives for the sake of others while benefiting themselves. They have some cool stuff and a lot is top secret.
Dunno about calling em wackjobs coz richest media mogul heir in oz is mates with Cruisy. They are everywhere and you do not know who is a member. If you talk against the religion you are declared a suppressive person or something. Oh and Xenu has already dropped a few of his kids on the planet so the fun has begun.  | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/27/2007 3:19:17 AM | I hear that they have a serious aversion to anyone who would scramble another human's brain with electricity or chemicals just because they don't fit the current paradigm of what's officially "straight."
Come to think of it, knowing how "different" I can be, I have an aversion to that, too.
Then again, it's funny, but I don't fit "THEIR" version, either.
Strange, isn't it, how crazy you are if you think for yourself? | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/27/2007 6:48:59 AM | Scientology is no good because we see of the ill effects it has made on some of it's "adherrants", like Tom Cruise and other such individuals.
No 'religion' is perfect and there are many that can use some inside cleaning if you will....but......Scienology just doesn't seem to be making any real positive impact on anyone. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/27/2007 8:15:20 PM | I challenge YOU to tell me exactly how Tom Cruise, or John Travolta, or Geoffrey Lewis, or Chick Correa, or any of dozens of other Scientologists are messed up and suffering "ill effects."
"BERLIN, Germany (Reuters) -- Germany has barred the makers of a movie about a plot to kill Adolf Hitler from filming at German military sites because its star Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, the Defense Ministry said on Monday."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/25/cruise.germany.reut/index.html
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/28/2007 8:09:07 AM | Down here in the land of Oz, I used to be a fan of Tom until he divorced "our Nic". She was great in the movie Dogville - what a bizarre twist at the end and well acted I thought.
I once overheard someone say that the only people who thought that Sci. actually worked were the celebrities. Rather cynical comment, not that I agree or disagree  | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/29/2007 10:03:21 AM | Hey you just need to look at what an organization actually does for people and the world to judge it.
Let see, Scn. first. Ok, thousands of people off drugs permanently! (Naronon) Same with thousands of criminals reabilitated (Criminon), strugling businesses and successful one being made more successful! (WISE) Education statistics not only going from getting worse to getting better, but in a completely new range! (Applied Schoolastics) And world wide human rights and moral campaigns leading to lowered crime and drug use not to mention happier people!!!
Pretty darn impressively good I'd say.
Now, Psych's. Social reforms in the goverment (advised of course) on education, criminal and drug policies.... Well I need not point out to anyone what goes on in the media and modern day life! Patients. Well sure, drug a guy, let him tell you his problems, errrm, give him some more drugs and hope. Usually the person pulls themselves together and gets on with it. Mind you, not very much better than before, but at least it's a life.
At least they're trying. Historically not a lot going for them (no real solutions and a lot of criminals and abusers), and you better believe that if any of either of the above abuse or use their power, nobody should stand for it. Thus I see court cases and such, which do get resolved correctly by the hard facts!!!!
One question for the anti-Scientologists here, have you actually looked at facts and figures before, or is being critical of something that's doing good your bag? | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/29/2007 2:40:02 PM | You realize of course that Hubbard was a pathological liar from a very early age, an alcoholic drug addict manic depresssive that dabbled in Satanism and didn't give a shit about anything other than money? And little girls.
He hated shrinks because they wouldn't tell him he was sane.
People are no so altruistic that they wouldn't leap at the chance to cure people for money, but as lame as it someties is psychiatry does work, moreso than e-meters and the belief than an alien flew an airplane to earth and deposited the souls of poeple in a volcano then blew it up with an atomic bomb and these lost sould are what cause our problems today.
Lo verily, render unto me a break. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/29/2007 2:51:47 PM | rsx11s
"BERLIN, Germany (Reuters) -- Germany has barred the makers of a movie about a plot to kill Adolf Hitler from filming at German military sites because its star Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, the Defense Ministry said on Monday."
That says everything about Germany and their intolerance, and NOTHING about Tom Cruise or Scientology.
You realize of course that Hubbard was a pathological liar from a very early age, an alcoholic drug addict manic depresssive that dabbled in Satanism and didn't give a shit about anything other than money? And little girls.
Of course you have evidence to back up this statement, and you are not just talking through your toothless orifice?
I once knew a lady who had worked with L Ron Hubbard back in the fifties. She said that he was equal parts con-man and genius, and that he had helped her in her life an incredible amount.
Personally, I never met the man. I read a lot of his books, trying to decipher what he had to say, and found quite a bit of it to be useful. The funny part is, just when I was dead sure that he was full of it, a few months to a year later, the subject would come up in life, and I'd realize he was dead on. The man drove me to distraction. One of the best Mind-F****s I've ever experienced.
I do like his his fiction better.
As for you, good buddy, if making wild accusations is the best you can do, try pulling your head out, for a cleaner, clearer view.
from your profile -
I believe actions are meaningful while words are just lips moving and sound coming out.
I agree.
Peace out. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/29/2007 6:40:55 PM | But I am not stupid enough to sit here in jealousy of Tom Cruise or anyone else and whine about their success as human beings or artists or whatever.
I'm not "whining" about anything .....my comment didn't even suggest that I was whining. I was just making a personal comment with reference to how I view this sect.
You remind me of yesiamcute - post a lot of nice words that you do not live.
Those quotes I have up I put them for a reason......because they are something that I beleive in and I like to aspire to live in such a way. Excuse me if my tolerance for Scientology is not all there...but then again, there are many people on here and everywhere that find things that they don't "click" with or they just don't see the.......draw/appeal to it.
I was into this stuff back in 1998 I beleive in was.....it didn't help me at all and again that is from my personal experiance of the matter.
OK, that's my rant for the day. That's one more than I usually have, so I am behind a few. Or, is that ahead a few? Who knows? Who cares?
hey, no hard feelings on this side...again I merely stated my opinion, nothing more....nothing less. You have the right to your opinion as much as I do.
Much love. aikiman
God bless
PS And I like Tom Cruise, and all those other guys. He was great in "Last Samurai."
Yeah he was ok there....but I personally think that scientology just doesn't do him that much good. Just my opinion thats all. | |
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