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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/29/2007 2:15:58 PM | I'd like to question why religious denominations seem to go out of their way to preach that they alone are "God's Chosen" and that only their believers will enter Heaven?
The reason I ask is that I am of Native American descent, and although I do not follow any "Western" religious denomination I am spiritual, and do believe in a Higher Power whichever you choose to call it. I have morals, and principles which aid me in the governance of my life. I for the most part am a good person, although I do have my human faults as we all do. I've never killed, or harmed anyone. I've only ever tried to treat my fellow human beings with respect, and it's those principles that were installed in me through my Native American customs and culture.
I'm curious why the denominations feel that my people, who have a tribal history and a very spiritual connection to the Earth and Creator of all things are often viewed as "heathens", "savages" and such. Why do these denominations feel that my faith is "tainted" and "evil"? Is it because we don't believe in Jesus Christ, the Prophet Muhammad or any other prophet out there who happened to write a book? Why are my people who understood the way of Earth, and the way of life the ones who are going to burn in Hell? I mean my people did live harmoniously for thousands of years before contact with the white man, and the religious practices he brought with him.
Basically what I am asking is why can't my spirituality and belief in a God figure as well as worshipping him according to my people's customs be enough to get me into Heaven? | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/29/2007 2:46:12 PM | "I'd like to question why religious denominations seem to go out of their way to preach that they alone are "God's Chosen" and that only their believers will enter Heaven?"
Actually, they don't, as you already know. You've obviously seen the usual crap you hear from people: that their religion is the one true religion, and that everyone else is wrong. And you seem to have noticed that it's a popular attitude in western "religions".
It's true, that some western (actually, probably just the middle-eastern) traditions seem to focus on this more than others. However, if you spend time studying the "high-achievers" of ANY religion, you'll find that they're very different from most of the people who just grow up with a religion, and THINK they understand it. Among them, you'll find people talking about love and shared humanity, and compassion, and wisdom, and learning from others, and sharing the burden of life's trials in a community -- not the "my way is right and you're evil" attitude that some people profess.
It's interesting how many people in the west give up their religion, in search of an eastern or more traditional western (ie, "pagan") religion, while people in the east (and native americans too) see (or saw) fit to give up their religion in favour of christianity. Granted, it's a little different when the people with the new religion are also occupiers offering carrots and brandishing sticks, BUT, I think there's a real spiritual search going on there, when people grow up with a religion they only understand through the eyes of a child, and find themselves having to start from scratch to understand a religion they've never seen before. All religions have value, but the ones we understand with an ADULT's understanding are the ones that will lead to love and peace (inner peace, and peace with others). Unfortunately, not all of us even reach adulthood, except physically.
p.s.: I've been the proud owner of a "Little Book of Native American Wisdom" for quite a few years now, and found many of the same truths in there, as I find in traditions from China, Japan, the middle east, Ireland, Africa... I for one, am glad that native american cultures and religions exist, wish I knew more of it, and wish that it was more widely known, for its own merits. The only way we'll ever truly understand anything about life, religion, or just our own selves, is if we can see what everyone else learned about themselves, and their place in the world. We're all in this together :)
In summary: there's a saying, "once you've seen the face of god, you see that same face on everyone you meet". I love that :) It also means that those who don't see god in your faith don't know what they're talking about ;) | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/29/2007 3:04:10 PM | "The reason I ask is that I am of Native American descent, and although I do not follow any "Western" religious denomination I am spiritual, and do believe in a Higher Power whichever you choose to call it. I have morals, and principles which aid me in the governance of my life. I for the most part am a good person, although I do have my human faults as we all do. I've never killed, or harmed anyone. I've only ever tried to treat my fellow human beings with respect, and it's those principles that were installed in me through my Native American customs and culture."
seededearth, can you please give me an outline of your native american sprituality, especially in regards to how you commune with God, if applicable? Thanks ahead of time... | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/29/2007 3:28:36 PM | Matt,
There are certain rituals and ceremonies that happen to be a part of the communion with God, however everyone's experience within those chosen rituals and such are all different. Every human's path to God is a different one, and what may be right for some, may not be right for others. It all depends on the individual and how deep of a communion with God they wish to have. Some will use herbs and plants, others will use the Sun Dance, still others will meditate on the prescence of God.
It's basically the individual's connection to God, and their faith which is most important not what the collective popualtion believes. Basically God is NOT religion, but rather a spiritual bond between yourself and your Creator. God created us all differently for a reason, and all of our experiences will be different from another's. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/29/2007 3:32:17 PM | Thanks again seededearth...
What is the motive for communion with God in the native american spirituality?
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/30/2007 9:29:26 AM | | For myself personally the motive for the rituals, ceremonies and such is to get a better understanding of my place on this living, breathing Earth. I am a living being who is a part of the Earth, NOT above it in any way. I rely on the Earth for my sustanance such as food, water, air, etc. The Creator created all of these things, and wants his children to have an understanding of the environment which surrounds them, and why he made things the way they are. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/30/2007 3:45:48 PM | "I am a living being who is a part of the Earth, NOT above it in any way."
I am trying to compare my religion to that of yours, so this may sound unusual, but in the end, I'm just trying to understand... Because of what you said above, do you think that mankind is a commodity equal to such things as food, water, air, etc.? Or do you believe that we are set above all other parts of this world? | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 8 | |
| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/30/2007 3:53:20 PM | Religion gives a sense of community, belonging, and purpose. Besides, what better justification is there for your own substandard existence than someone patting you on the head and saying "You are one of the chosen few and will recieve great reward in the next life".......
Its to make people feel like they belong to something greater than themselves. Just like ANY community when you really get down to brass tacks. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 9:42:31 AM | Matt Adore, before the influence of western civilization, our Native American ancestors saw more of an equality with such things as our food, water, air etc. We felt the animals had as much right to be here as we did, yet knew they were also our means of survival. A hunter would would always hunt fairly and thank the animal for its sacrifice. Our people would try and give back to the earth the things we took from it and give thanks for both the plants and the water that sustained us. We had spirit guides to aid us, totems to protect us and it wasn't so much having multiple gods, but having one god of many faces. We had ceremonies to give thanks and show appreciation. We had trials to prove ourselves worthy and we sought visions to help us understand our god. If we lived our life following these tenants, then when we died our ancestors who had gone before us would be there to guide us to our version of heaven. Which really translates to the Happy Place, not the Happy Hunting Ground.
We really did not so much see ourselves as being set above other parts of the world so much as living in harmony and using our skills to survive. Somedays you get the bear, somedays the bear gets you. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 11:00:04 AM |
Msg 8:
"Its to make people feel like they belong to something greater than themselves. Just like ANY community when you really get down to brass tacks."
Amen | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 2:56:15 PM | | Thanks for the answers Scheherrazade! I like to learn about other religions than my own, but sometimes have a tough time seeing them through what I have been taught... When you said, "Matt Adore, before the influence of western civilization, our Native American ancestors saw more of an equality with such things as our food, water, air etc. We felt the animals had as much right to be here as we did, yet knew they were also our means of survival. A hunter would would always hunt fairly and thank the animal for its sacrifice."... I still am interested as to an oppinion from an adherant to the native religions about if you believe or not that the human being is a higher being in nature than other beings. What if someone were to say because of your statement above, that it is alright to subjugate one ethnicity of man underneath another ethnicity because they are equal in nature to beasts of burden or food sources? | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 4:31:48 PM | | seededearth, I, and I like to think a lot of other people, have a massive amount of respect and interest in traditional Native beliefs. In addition, not all religions/spiritualities claim to be the only way to enlightenment/salvation, etc. And if they do, most don't proselytize such. I also agree with the idea that humans are not "above" any other form of life on the planet. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 9:42:01 PM | Matt, If your looking for a evolutionary ladder, I'm not sure I can give it to you. I can't say we'd consider ourselves as being "higher beings" , maybe just sentient or intelligent beings. We try to live in harmony and we take responsibility for nature and animals. They were put on this earth to sustain us, but only if we are worthy and give back to the earth in respect.
As for subjugation, I come from a race of Warriors. My grandmother was Choctaw. History shows at various times races have tried to enslave us, but we tended to fight to the death rather than be subjugated. Freedom is important to us be it man or animal. In Many Native American tribes captives were often kept as slaves, not because we saw them as equal in nature to beast, but because they were our enemies. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 10:55:44 PM | seedeearth,
First I love how you say "denominations" and not "Christians".
I think that a missionary friend of mine said it best,
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. - Paul in the letter to the Romans
Jesus himself honored the faith of the Roman Centurian and spoke to those who witnessed it, "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
You ask...
Basically what I am asking is why can't my spirituality and belief in a God figure as well as worshipping him according to my people's customs be enough to get me into Heaven?
As a Christian all I can say is "I don't know". But I do feel very strongly that unless you are how you represent yourself to be then you may need to remain open to the possibility that there may be spiritual truth greaten then that of your tribes. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 5/31/2007 10:59:07 PM |
I'd like to question why religious denominations seem to go out of their way to preach that they alone are "God's Chosen" and that only their believers will enter Heaven?
because that's good business | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/1/2007 9:54:28 AM |
I'd like to question why religious denominations seem to go out of their way to preach that they alone are "God's Chosen" and that only their believers will enter Heaven? because that's good business
I wish I could disagree, rockondon, but sometimes it seems to be the case. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/1/2007 4:27:07 PM | "Matt, If your looking for a evolutionary ladder, I'm not sure I can give it to you. I can't say we'd consider ourselves as being "higher beings" , maybe just sentient or intelligent beings. We try to live in harmony and we take responsibility for nature and animals. They were put on this earth to sustain us, but only if we are worthy and give back to the earth in respect."
I'm not neccesarily looking for an evolutionary ladder, but more or less trying to reconcile my beliefs to the native americans spirituality. Does this spirituality answer as to why humankind is sentient or intelligent as compared to other things in nature? Why us instead of them?
"As for subjugation, I come from a race of Warriors. My grandmother was Choctaw. History shows at various times races have tried to enslave us, but we tended to fight to the death rather than be subjugated. Freedom is important to us be it man or animal. In Many Native American tribes captives were often kept as slaves, not because we saw them as equal in nature to beast, but because they were our enemies."
Is the desire for freedom more realized in the human being? Could an animals need to live it's own life according to its will be best described as instinctual instead of a concept of freedom? | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/1/2007 5:29:57 PM |
Basically what I am asking is why can't my spirituality and belief in a God figure as well as worshipping him according to my people's customs be enough to get me into Heaven?
Do you believe in the Christian concept of heaven? And that there are conditions to get through the pearly gates? If so, then live your life accordingly and don't worry what others think.. because you will know privately that your entrance is secure :)
If you don't believe in the Christian concept of heaven.. then why worry? Be the spiritual person you already are and live by the dictates of your spirit and the creator..
Either way.. I am suggesting that YOU decide! | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/1/2007 7:48:26 PM | The Choctaw (Cha'ta) people have a myth of underground origins. They believe that their ancestors emerged from a fifty-foot-tall natural geological formation and it is said by the Choctaw to be the entrance to a vast underground realm. The world beneath the mound was a large series of caverns. The emergence myth while not really documented, is often related as us coming from the earth, being a part of the earth with no real explanation as to why we are more intelligent than the animals of the earth, just that the gods created us that way. I'm not sure of the relevance, but my Grandmother once said we were there to protect the earth and its creatures, while they were there to sustain us. If that is her own personal thoughts of learned from her tribe, I could not tell you. I'm sure this also does not apply to all Native American cultures, I can just tell you of the one I am familiar with.
I also think the desire for freedom is just as instinctual for Humans as it is for animals. A free creature will instinctively fight against restriction yet, when faced with no choice it will either submit to the yoke or die. Unfortunately for many of my Native American ancestors, death was preferable to enslavement. You will find that same result in some animals who are captured and caged. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/2/2007 5:08:05 AM | Native spirituality's most basic tenet is that all is connected.
People, animals, water, air, rocks, earth, plants, EVERYTHING, is here on the Mother, as She, in concert with the Creator, have agreed to foster an environment that allows consciousness to express itself. Time is "dreaming", and this reality is just one of many.
When one looks at all that surrounds us, and understands that we are all basically just part of creation, just in different forms reaaranged in a different manner, then one becomes aware and respects the animals, air, water, rocks and people.
It's all about the journey baby.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/2/2007 6:46:53 AM | Thanks a lot ya'll! I think I am getting a decent grasp of this part of the native american spirituality...
"The emergence myth while not really documented, is often related as us coming from the earth, being a part of the earth with no real explanation as to why we are more intelligent than the animals of the earth, just that the gods created us that way. I'm not sure of the relevance, but my Grandmother once said we were there to protect the earth and its creatures, while they were there to sustain us."
That would infer that we are set above nature in some sort of way... I wonder with the privelage and duty of having the responsibility of protecting the Earth and its creatures, is there anything from native american spirituality concerning our lack of desire to be custodians, or failure to do so? Are there teachings about consequences? I'm not saying that I don't have this desire, but I'm sure that I fall short. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/2/2007 8:31:43 AM | | We are the top of the food chain so no matter what the Gods intended we are above nature. However, there are consequences to everything. If we do not desire to be custodians, then we suffer for it. Naturally in my Native American culture its a case if you do not take care of the earth, then the earth won't take care of you. If you abuse the land, then the plants won't grow. If you get greedy and kill off all the animals, then they can't replenish the supply. If you pollute the water, then you go thirsty. I've always loved the simplicity of Native American spirituality. We don't have to attend church once or twice a week. Our church is around us every day. We all fall short of taking care of the earth in this age of technology and I think all of us are seeing the consequences of it. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/2/2007 9:25:35 AM | I completely agree with what you said---and find it EXTREMELY sad.
There are so many things a person could do in this life to feel a sense of purpose, things that actually contribute to the world around them. One does not have to look very hard to find volunteer services that are dying for help. I understand that there are plenty of churches that do assist their communities. I am merely pointing out that there are too many people relying on a day in church to fulfill some inner needs instead of taking part in activities that actually help to repair the suffering around us. | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/2/2007 10:31:21 AM | "We are the top of the food chain so no matter what the Gods intended we are above nature. However, there are consequences to everything."
I love what you have said! I just want to make sure that I understand you well... Does the native american spirituality have any teachings about why we are at the top of the food chain, or does this belief come from modern evolutionary thinking? I was wondering, because in message #19 you said twice that the Gods did set us above nature. I would think that the native american spirituality might have had an explanation that is older than evolution, as to why humanity was was set up by the Gods as natures caretakers? And are you saying that native american spirituality doesn't have any traditions, myths or teachings that say humankind are accountable for failing, nor that there are no mentions of offending the Gods?
"no matter what the Gods intended"
I beg for your patience... | |
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| Why Religion?
Posted: 6/2/2007 10:53:50 AM | Then we're getting into the creation legends.....
Depending on which nation, most are analogous to the fall of man. My favourite is when the Creator gave us permission to try on bodies as it were, and a lot of us became entangled with them as we enjoyed it too damn much. That was ok, but then we decided to crossbreed and create the monsters of old, which was ok on a physical level, but not on a spiritual level. Apparently, we also lost our path, that is, we became so warped in trying to maintain the physical, that we forgot the true memory of who we were. There's a myth that after this "drunk", there was a huge pow wow and it was decided that the caretakers were the two leggeds due to their mobility. It does not suggest that we were put on top of the chain, rather, on par, just with extra responsibilities.
(just a small aside, this story would explain why some are born with tails and other vestiges analogous to animals...)
Who we were? We were the true co-creators of life on the planet, carefully balanced to sustain life for the two legged, four legged, scaled, feathered, trees, rocks, water, air, etc. with the help of our Mother.
Cheers, Raven | |
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