| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/19/2007 9:32:16 PM | http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070616.BAUER16/TPStory/TPNational/Television/
Canadian jurist prompts international justice panel to debate TV drama 24's use of torture
Senior judges from North America and Europe were in the midst of a panel discussion about torture and terrorism law, when a Canadian judge's passing remark - "Thankfully, security agencies in all our countries do not subscribe to the mantra 'What would Jack Bauer do?' " - got the legal bulldog in Judge Scalia barking.
The conservative jurist stuck up for Agent Bauer, arguing that fictional or not, federal agents require latitude in times of great crisis. "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles. ... He saved hundreds of thousands of lives," Judge Scalia said. Then, recalling Season 2, where the agent's rough interrogation tactics saved California from a terrorist nuke, the Supreme Court judge etched a line in the sand.
"Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" Judge Scalia challenged his fellow judges. "Say that criminal law is against him? 'You have the right to a jury trial?' Is any jury going to convict Jack Bauer? I don't think so.
"So the question is really whether we believe in these absolutes. And ought we believe in these absolutes."
What happened next was like watching the National Security Judges International All-Star Team set into a high-minded version of a conversation that has raged across countless bars and dinner tables, ever since 24 began broadcasting six seasons ago.
I think Scalia is way wrong. IMHO torture is *never* acceptable. | |
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MX981
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Joined: 6/8/2007
Msg: 2 | |
| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/19/2007 9:47:04 PM | Canadian; Arar (innocent) was kidnapped by American intelligence officers and brought
to Syria for orderly torture. He was brought to Syria because another torture
victim was beaten so savagely that he gave out his name.......any name. Consequently,
Arar rec'd over $10 mill from Canada along with an heart-felt apology from the
Prime Ministers office with a promise never to co-operate with the United States
in this fashion EVER again. Interesting how Bush declares Syria part of
the Axis of Evil yet he works closely with them on intelligence matters....anyone
here find that odd...raise your hand. Yeah, I thought so...hypocrisy.
Jack Bauer is a fictional character....if anyone is looking for the "cool factor"
to bolster support for torture, then I'm afraid it's a hopeless cause. The actor
who plays Jack Bauer is totally against it........
What does Canadian Kiefer Sutherland (Jack Bauer) say about torture??
"Do I personally believe that the police or any of these other legal agencies that are
working for this government (American) should be entitled to interrogate people and do the things
that I do on the show? No, I do not."
....he makes us Canadians so proud!! :D | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/20/2007 7:36:39 PM | I know I'm preaching to the choir here (for the most part, I hope), but the problem with works of fiction is that cause and effect are artificially constructed. The author is the "omnipotent god" of the situation.
For people who followed the Star Wars prequels, it reminds me of a joke I made up in frustration over the script, the acting, and lack of chemistry: "Do you know why Padme falls in love with Anakin? Because it's in the script!"
Sadly enough, one of the presidential candidates (Huckabee? Tancredo?) used Jack Bauer as a macho banner for his support of "enhanced interrogation."
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/20/2007 11:25:19 PM | Fact is life seems a lot more like "the siege" than 24...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133952/
"Come on General, you've lost men, I've lost men, but you - you, you *can't* do this! What, what if they don't even want the sheik, have you considered that? What if what they really want is for us to herd our children into stadiums like we're doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they've won. They've already won! " | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 1:33:29 AM | Point well-taken on this being a work of fiction. I've watched 24 a few times, and I think most people like the show for the suspenseful qualities.
What digs at me, and why 24's depictions of torture induces such discussion, it that in America it's even being debated at all. A few years ago I couldn't imagine the national discourse now held on torture even taking place. Fiction? Yes, but it's troublesome that a SC Justice hold these kinds of attitudes.
French writer Voltaire had some keen observations on "the issue" (torture) that I think should be read today. It's a pity that it's so hard to google his remarks. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 6:38:21 AM | If you use torture, you slip over to the dark side of "the enemy". That's what we are supposed to be fighting, isn't it ?
Torture doesn't work well, it's barbaric, and psychological pressure can give far more benefits in information gathering.
"The Siege" is a movie I've mentioned here before, and it's fascinating to see how it was done before 9/11....and showed us a future that had not happened yet. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 7:23:38 AM | Ever notice the BAD guys almost always win?
Note:
They never fight amongst themselves.
Everybody follows orders and does their job well. They work as a team.
The bad guys have a plan and stick to it.
Nobody second guesses their bosses ideas and b!cthes through every episode.
All the Bad guys are sober clear thinkers. No drugs, booze or casual sex for them.
The bad guys are better shots.
The bad guy's and their bosses are alway faithful to their cause no matter what. No double dealing or hidden agendas for them
CTU has a really bad body count ratio compared to the competition.
How many senior CTU agents have been killed and HOW MANY U.S. PRESIDENTS Rubbed out!!! WOW!!!
When you think about it the bad guys are really the "good guys" in 24!
A damn sneaky Canadian TV show!!! Subverting Amercian society every week with Truth, Justice and the Terrorist way..
Are the United Empire Loyalists coming back to reclaim their homeland? Is Jack really a Canadian terrorist with an agenda?
Ever notice almost everybody at CTU speaks with a Canadian accent? And what is a Middle Eastern guy with a name like O'Brian? doing hanging out with a nutcase psychopath like Chloe?
Morris O'Brian has also been spotted running a Mosque hidden in an Anglican church in Western Canada while posing as a humble contractor with a wife and burka wearing child. Even his answering machine states that he will "blow away the competition" | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 9:54:10 AM | | The 'bad boys' win a lot of the time...because..... they don't do things 'politically correct'. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 10:10:21 AM | Torture doesn't work well, it's barbaric, and psychological pressure can give far more benefits in information gathering.
The fact that it can be used is "psychological pressure ". It is not punishment nor should it be used for that.
I'd always question it's use, and it better be recorded. Whether it should be used by the military is a different question. It's proper use is in the immediate life and death situations, and then almost exclusively civilian related security.
The only problem I'd have is whether you can prove after the fact that the tortured would be in position to have essential facts, and whether then facts panned out to a reasonable ends.
Yes, I believe that the ends can justify very aggressive means.
On a person level, if I had evidence or enough reason to believe and the means, I would make excruciating for a person to withhold info I need to save a loved one. Law or no law. Somethings just can't wait for a bureaucratic process to weigh and justify the means nor does the time it takes to use more passive "psychological pressure ". The legal consequences need to take that into account. The "withholders" need to be aware of how willing we are to prevent their criminal ends. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 10:23:20 AM |
On a person level, if I had evidence or enough reason to believe and the means, I would make excruciating for a person to withhold info I need to save a loved one. Law or no law. Somethings just can't wait for a bureaucratic process to weigh and justify the means nor does the time it takes to use more passive "psychological pressure ". The legal consequences need to take that into account. The "withholders" need to be aware of how willing we are to prevent their criminal ends.
And, that is the key. I wonder how many would adhere to 'humane treatment' guidelines if their child's life was in the hands of someone who was in custody. Would they use torture to gain info to their child's location? People need to walk in the shoes of those who are in a position to protect us and our families from terrorists, kidnappers, murderers, etc. etc. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:02:13 AM | Since we're playing this game... ever notice how torture always extracts info from the bad guy but never from the good guy? This goes right back to my fiction comments.
Law or no law
Good segue into a point I was going to bring up. The US already sends prisoners to countries that allow torture. Torture is probably used whether legal or illegal anyway. If torture is legalized, there is the danger that it will be used recklessly and shamelessly.
As MG was saying, it is important for the US to try to maintain the moral high ground. Otherwise, what separates us from the enemy besides pure survival? Sometimes it seems that the US is just trying to maintain the illusion of the moral high ground. The rest of the world sees the reality; the illusion is just there for citizens of the US. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:17:01 AM |
the moral high ground
It is not an illusion, it's a goal. When survival is the stakes it's not a reasonable excuse for inaction. Sometimes you gotta do what is nessesary and let the judges and God sort it out. It is easier for good and/or well intentioned people to act when the law is on their side in the end. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:36:45 AM | Surely noone is 'shocked' at what goes on behind closed doors... in real life... for the rest of us to remain safe and free as possible.
It's all done with diplomatic talks, etc.? Guess again.
The show '24' is closer to home than one might imagine. But, it's 'politically correct' to say... oh, nooooo, I wouldn't do that or condone that type of action in real life.
People need to wake up and realize what some 'others' have to do to make life tolerable... safe haven...etc. for the rest of us.
And...sure...it's just the USA who does this... we don't work with agents from other Nations...O...K.... sure thing.
EDIT:
flyguy,
Thanks re' my change of username.
Nah.. not discussing with a brick wall. Just threw in some added thoughts. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:37:36 AM | As a goal, it should be reflected in our lawmaking and foreign policy, shouldn't it? Isn't this thread essentially about protecting the use of torture by law? As for inaction, that's a fallacy. The alternate to torture isn't doing nothing. And the old "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" doesn't wash with me. Part of the problem is many of our enemies expect pain and death, and God will reward them fittingly in the hereafter.
Another TV reference, to "Alias" in this case: the one time I recall Sidney giving up all her info was under psych torture not physical. The bad guys knew that her pain threshhold was way too high for physical torture to work. She befriended a guy in the next cell, and the baddies tortured HIM until she talked, which she did. Then the guy walked out of his cell with the other bad guys and told Sidney "Thank you for your cooperation." | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:43:35 AM | Me:
The US already sends prisoners to countries that allow torture.
Piratress:
And...sure...it's just the USA who does this... we don't work with agents from other Nations...O...K.... sure thing.
Piratress (cool new name, BTW), are you discussing with a brick wall or something, because you're surely not addressing anything said by anyone here. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 12:01:44 PM |
Interesting how Bush declares Syria part of
the Axis of Evil yet he works closely with them on intelligence matters....anyone
here find that odd...raise your hand. Yeah, I thought so...hypocrisy.
Bush named Iraq, Iran, and North Korea the axis of evil in his speech. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 12:24:24 PM |
On a person level, if I had evidence or enough reason to believe and the means, I would make excruciating for a person to withhold info I need to save a loved one
Ah, the ticking time bomb. Let me ask you this: a terrorist very likely (but not certain) has the info on a nuke that will blow up Los Angeles. He says "let me rape your five year old child, and I'll tell you where the bomb is." Would you do it?
Supposing you followed through, how surprised would you be if you went to the address he gave you and found out he was lying? | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 12:30:05 PM | As a goal, it should be reflected in our lawmaking and foreign policy, shouldn't it? Yes it should. Effective physical torture IMO can be done from "moral high ground" and through laws. All you have to do is prove the urgency after the fact.
The alternate to torture isn't doing nothing. Who said anything about doing nothing? If time is not a factor torture is not needed. Even if it is, you had better be able to prove it was needed to get info to save life/lives. Fear of torture and a simple question will bring out a lot of answers. Put yourself in that position. How willing are you to be that stubborn to either to have someone else die or stay out of prison.
"kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" doesn't wash with me. Who said anything about killing, this is about physical torture. You can get facts from the dead.
Part of the problem is many of our enemies expect pain and death, and God will reward them fittingly in the hereafter. Yep, I want them to know and see going in , though our laws and recorded cases, how much they better be willing to endure to withhold info before they ever get into having that sort of info. Let them know that death will not be an option, whether they expect it or not, pray for it or not.
I'm not talking about military, they are under a different set of circumstances than law enforcement. I believe they should use it. I don't believe the photos (the ones I saw) from Iraq prison showed physical torture. Just intimidation and humiliation, I'm ok with that to some degree,, war sucks. But that's not what we're talking about either. (another time, another place)
Alpina ---- I'll leave those answers to the screenplay writers.
I think Scalia is way wrong. IMHO torture is *never* acceptable.
I hope for your sake , and those depending on you, you never have to be faced with a situation that would cause you this moral dilemma on a personal level. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 12:35:57 PM | Torture is never acceptable, but sometimes necessary.
Which is why it's 'covert'. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 1:12:41 PM | Jack Bauer rules ...Thats why he is Canadian.
Even the name Bauer is sooooo Canadian. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 1:15:46 PM | I think it says a lot that the only arguement in favor of torture comes down to insane hypotheticals.
"Dr.Evil is going to blow up the world, you have 15 minutes to extract the information and a set of hedge trimmers, what do you do... WHAT DO YOU DO!!!?"
Funny you know I think those people in Abhu Graib probably didn't have access to nukes, and hell a lot of them were taken up in huge drag net operations...
The real reason that torture is legitimate in so many americans eyes? Their leadership has been droning on and on that it's neccesary. Why have they been droning on and on that it's neccesary? Because the pictures of people being tortured got out, and even though non of these people were in ticking time bomb scenarios, a Republican can never make a mistake. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 1:35:05 PM |
Effective physical torture IMO can be done from "moral high ground" and through laws.
This is where we disagree, and it's pretty fundamental to each of our positions. Also, the phrase "effective physical torture" assumes a lot. Physical torture has not proven to be very effective. That's one of the big reasons I oppose it. Many who utilize it do so out of simple vengeance and sadism.
Who said anything about doing nothing?
You did, with the word "inaction" in your previous post. I read what you write, even if you don't.
Who said anything about killing, this is about physical torture.
Often a fate worse than death. Anyway, there's no popular saying for "torture 'em all."
Let them know that death will not be an option, whether they expect it or not, pray for it or not.
If physical torture becomes the policy du jeur, don't be surprised if prisoners start dropping dead before being thoroughly searched. We supply our agents with cyanide capsules, why can't they?
Just intimidation and humiliation, I'm ok with that to some degree,, war sucks.
Preventable wars suck even more. As for intimidation and humiliation, I have no reason to believe that was for extracting valuable info; it was just for intimidation and humiliation. | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 1:41:51 PM | There's also been a very clear rise in this type of act being shown on shows like "24", and others.
Had an American agent been shown torturing someone in his custody in the Seventies, there would have been hell to pay. Now it's acceptable.
Guys like Colonel Flagg on MASH were the source of constant humour . 
Flagg: That all depends on HQ.
Henry: HQ
Flagg: Why did you say HQ? Whoever told you about HQ?
Henry: Well, you told me, Colonel Flagg.
Flagg: Who's Colonel Flagg?
Who knew Flagg would eventual run your country, disguised as Cheney ?
When we were wagging our fingers at people worldwide ( Soviets , etc) for their horrific abuse of people's rights , it wasn't accepted.
Mr Pot... meet Mr. Kettle.  | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 2:05:17 PM | | I was thinking more along the lines of Randall Flag, you know the evil one in "the Stand" by Steven King? | |
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| What would Jack Bauer do?
Posted: 6/21/2007 9:05:55 PM |
"Dr.Evil is going to blow up the world, you have 15 minutes to extract the information and a set of hedge trimmers, what do you do... WHAT DO YOU DO!!!?"
Ok, I'll play your game, but you go 1st. Hell it's only fifteen minutes, why even bother.
Just sit back and reflect on what a long strange trip it's been.
Physical torture has not proven to be very effective.
Just having it permissible by law is the really more to the point of the OP. It's kinda like having nukes, for the deterance. When it does have to be used it should be reported. I wouldn't want to use it but it's better left on the table.
I really couldn't even fatham the situations where cops know someone has info that will save lives if acted upon quickly but have to sit back and watch some smug little @#$%% hold it in cause they know their "rights". Then you take that and keep uping the numbers of lives at risk. I would not want to have to make that choice and they shouldn't have to either. | |
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