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 Author Thread: Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
 serenityCW

Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 1
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/21/2007 10:55:37 AM
Apparently plans to ban pornography and alcohol for the northern Aborigine population, in turn tightening welfare benefits, are underway in Australia. The underlying rationale of this strategy is "to fight child sexual abuse".

Some are recommending a similar strategy for other parts of the country. Why the same rules do not seem applicable to child sexual offenders, who are of other ethnic origin, appears not to have been addressed by law.

Publicly funded computers would also be audited to enforce the hard core pornography concern with emphasis upon the material currently being easily available to children. Half of welfare checks will be monitored (although not clear how) for use pertaining to essentials and children's school attendance will be a requirement for ongoing welfare participation.

An increase in the police forces is also being suggested. Although much of the childhood sexual abuse is qualitatively known amongst health workers, much has gone un(under)reported in the aborigine community (as in the rest of the world). Furthermore perpetrators were not necessarily aborigine, but have included those who lived "nearby".

Aborigines continue to live with unemployment and impoverishment in Australia. Reportedly jobs are scarce, further causing a breakdown in traditional society. The federal government retains powers over this population with only a majority act of Parliament, but cannot make similar decisions with respect to the other six Australian states. About 60,000 of 400, 000 aboriginal people live in the Northern Territory.

Reportedly: 97 recommendations were made regarding these issues and supposedly including recommendations to address poverty. Life expectancy is documented at 17 years shorter than other Australians. For years, Aboriginal woman had their bi-racial children taken away from them and intermarriage with Caucasians was not allowed. Many employed in the cattle and sheep industries are not only paid less than "whites", but often working for meager rations. Whether the strategy attempted to correct this situation was not clear, but assumedly not.

First of all, I am welcoming any more light to be shed on the history of aborigines in Australia and whatever attempts have been made over the years to rectify their deplorable situations. I would be interested for a comparison of this situation to the indigenous and African American slavery situation here in the USA, as well as in other countries, including references to timelines. I would, in particular, be interested in hearing some of this from a person who is Aborigine, him/herself!

Secondly can such a strategy against one population ONLY be legally employed and will it go unchallenged and what are the implications for those of us in international "white" society, where similar issues of alcoholism and child sexual abuse ARE documented and where our children can also easily access hardcore pornography quite easily and in our own public libraries.

Given the sins of the original oppressors in not just Australia, but here in the USA, Mexico and other countries with historical roots of eradication and abuse of indigenous peoples and the ongoing horrors: WHAT SPECIFIC ACTIONS do you recommend that can, and should, be taken to address the underlying causes of current situations? For example: in addition to increasing the police force, are health care providers being increased? Are inequitable and dire wages being addressed? Is education and job opportunity also given a similar budget?

Or, is this just one more brutal example of how modern "European" civilization (including our descendents here in the USA) is attempting to control it's population overgrowth? E.G. : By killing off one group of people to the advantage of the "others". Or simply by denial: "We didn't do it, our grandparents did!"

Furthermore as more and more money is being pumped into a police force, more bureaucracy and consequently more "white" jobs with "white" benefits, and entire industries being concocted all over the globe to supposedly "help" the impoverished peoples-- how much of this money goes to them and now much of it is just another farce to boost the economy of those already in power, giving "them" more jobs and capital, versus teaching and funding self rule with the concommitant leadership skills and resources? So, then we all wonder: why are there no positive results? Oh, it must be "their" fault, we tried!

Note: please be civil and help us educate each other on this topic. Obviously points of view are going to vary, but it would be helpful to garner some facts and timelines along the way! I did see an indie movie a number of years ago about the aboriginal peoples and am going to try to find the name of it (i am terrible with names), have read some material by a famous aboriginal model, and have heard some of the situation from a good friend, portuguese, who was raised in australia. Other than that, I am open to learn and also to see what is similar to here in the usa and what is unique to australia.
 MrBad_Kitty

Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 2
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:16:47 AM
you ban access to them looking at porn, you just banned 90% of the net.

it doesnt suprise me this has happened. I mean, look what whites did to the native americans (and to the: Irish, blacks, Chinese, Japanese, hispanics, etc etc). it doesnt really suprise me what whites do. the only difference is the fact the Australians have cooler sounding accents.
 citizenoftheworld

Joined: 6/11/2007
Msg: 3
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/21/2007 11:32:56 AM
It isn't for the whole native population. Its for Northern Territories. The only thing that would need to happen to take the unfairness out of it... is to make it foreveryone in the Northern Territories.

Is it right? Is it wrong? Obviously, it depends on who you ask... and at this moment, Howard is asking the children... Sexual abuse is far more common there, than in other parts of the country. So, he is trying to solve that problem.

I agree with him working on the solution... and while this may not be the best solution... if it means a few less children get raped, then I am all for it, until something better comes along.

If I lived there, I could do without the booze and porn for six months.
 serenityCW

Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 4
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 12:42:34 AM
well, to follow your logic, yes apply to all who live within the northern territories and how about the ones who live nearby but "operate" in the northern territories and are not aboriginal? and what about all the rest of the child abuse in australia and in the rest of this world? if this is a "solution" then why not do the same elsewhere? sexual abuse stats in the usa are quite high. could you do w/o the booze and porn forever? how do you attest that aborigines are affected and not everyone else? do you truly believe it's the porn and the booze? what caused the porn and the booze in the first place?

where is everyone regarding this thread? i find the topic not only horrific but despairing. does anyone care???? does anyone from australia care to enlighten? any indigenous people who identify here?
 Trailsman5

Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 5
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 4:09:52 AM
I am not Austrailian, but similar problems arise in some of Canada's Native population. It stems from several factors:

1. Abuse experienced in "residential schools" led some victims to perpetuate the cycle and become offenders in adulthood.

2. Keeping people in isolated communities (reserves) limits the number of non-related adult sexual partners available.

3. Overwhelming poverty and a predisposition to alcoholism has led to various forms of antisocial conduct... including pedophilia and incest.

These factors exist to some degree in isolated communities all over the world. Some of the small islands off the coast of the UK, for example, grappled with consanguinity in the 50s and 60s. Or the Golers who lived in Nova Scotia's Cobequid mountain range in the 80s.
 WickedSecret

Joined: 4/5/2007
Msg: 6
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 8:15:34 AM
OP,

The title of the movie you are seeking is possibly "Rabbit Proof Fence", this documents what happened to the aboriginies in years past.

The Australian unemployment level is at one of it's lowest in over a decade, and there are specific jobs that only ask for Aboriginal applicants. There is no longer, the white man being paid more than the indigenous man, that all flew out the window decades ago.

As for the history of aboriginies, I am sure there are plenty of sites available on the net that can shed far more light than what I can. However, with that said, the conditions that they live in that people view as deplorable are "missions", where they themselves have chosen to live. Housing is available, although the list is lengthy, as is the one for the "non-indigenous" Australians that require it.

There is a budget that addresses the issues that you have mentioned, however it is up to the aboriginal community themselves to want to undertake further training, education etc. A lot of the government's assistance has been frowned upon in the past by the elders of each community group. As for the welfare assistance, aboriginal's recieve a greater financial benefit than the "non-indigenous" unemployed Australians. That is one benefit that they do not turn down.

Another person here mentioned that take away pornography and there goes 90% of the internet. Surely you realise that pornography is available in many other forms other than the internet to which many of these people do not have access?

I am an Australian and I reside in a city with a significant aboriginal population. You cannot "lump" people from the same culture in the one boat. Some aboriginals in our city are very successful, upstanding community members, and a lot of them would be the first to agree with what John Howard has suggested.
The gaol population in our city has approx 87% aboriginal inmates, and those are generally stemming from alcohol/abuse charges.

Australians are not trying to "kill off one group" as you put it, we are merely trying to address an issue that if left alone, may result in them killing off themselves.

Whether or not what John Howard has proposed is successful or even comes into effect is something that will remain to be seen. Australia is a multi-cultural society, we have a National "Sorry" Day, to apologise to the aboriginal community as a whole for the tremendous wrong doings that the "non-indigenous" Australian's inflicted upon them in years past. Not many other countries can offer the same National Day of Recognition to their natives I am sure.

 bliss serendipity

Joined: 12/27/2006
Msg: 7
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 10:45:52 AM
How does one atone for many years of injustice? Colonialism is a major factor that contributed/es to such problems, you will these very same problems in all other countries. And I don't believe that government really care one way or another, they just pander to the voters, and create an industry to ensure money stays within their industry.

Out of all the money that our Canadian government allocates to Indian Affairs, 75% goes to the Administrative Department within Indian Affairs, maintaining an industry for their own benefit. Regardless of what one reads or hears, very little of that money actually reaches the ones that need it. Just think of the many thousands and thousands of jobs that would disappear if Native people were paid for what was stolen from them, and took control of their own lives. The only people benefiting from this are the ones in control.

As for alcoholism, drug abuse and sexual abuse, the numbers are not any different within our local communities, just well hidden. It is staggering to know that 4 out of 5 children are being or have been sexually abused. So if one thinks that taking away porn sights and cutting off alcohol sales is going to change anything, then these same people must believe in the tooth fairy. Addressing poverty and alcoholism with a change of attitude and education will do more to help all people combat these problems.
 whatchel1

Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 8
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 1:55:30 PM
As per usual it is a case of go after the symptoms instead of finding out the cause. Porn is an easy target. Just filter the public computers, which is the way I'm reading what they are doing. Huge amounts of libraries here in the states do that as well. The alcohol is another symptom of problem and a somewhat controllable object (of course no there will be bootleggers). They need to look at what are the causes of the problems, but then that would mean doing some real work and not just the quick fix.
 serenityCW

Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 9
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 2:34:09 PM
Trailsmen,

Yes, I concur. But add to the isolation: overcrowding w/o other economic and social outlets. Overcrowded residences and overcrowded neighborhoods! Then w/o opportunity and time on your hands, there is nothing else to do that day—especially with a high rate of unemployment! I have heard the same from families who have immigrated here (to nyc, where i used to live and we shared our past and our future). They remained tossed together and culturally isolated in one small space, with much of what is described as their "reward" for trying. I have heard of the South African Afrikaners (white) who were totally isolated from each other, during their reign of colonial abuse (using ham radios to educate their children) and thus engaged in similar “unreported” practices. In addition, add to that pile, the people with conservative “religious” practices who rather than commit “adultery” will sexually abuse their own children!


So, where do you put the money, controlling aborigines versus going after several of the biggest industries in the world? They say the porn industry way tops the dollars derived from Hollywood movies!


Twinsister,
I totally agree with you about many government “interventions” putting more money into the administrative aspect and not much going to the supposed recipients. That is why I check the stats on any charity I might put onto my list. Plus, I believe that the sad aspect of “human nature” knows no national or cultural boundary. That is why I sarcastically say, if this is such a good approach, why not apply it to the rest of the world?

Thanks you Juicer,
Yes, that’s the movie and I am now going to buy it for my collection of historical references which I, slowly but surely, try to share with my kids. My son is a real history buff and often brings me similar movies to discuss. They saw that movie with me, and it was fairly soon after I had taken them in from fost/adopt (another bureaucracy that feeds itself!).

As to the choice to live in ghettos, missions or reservations. I can only speak about what I know here and this is aside from tying to preserve one's own culture. It was not all that long ago, that after WW II, our govt. offered the “new” govt. “Fannie Mae” mortgages and all non-whites were excluded. Later, as a bone, they tossed in the high rise ghettoes for minorities. It was not until the 60’s and the damage was already done, that Johnson was able to pass the civil rights legislation that stopped the practice, but by then the banks and realtors were playing on people’s fears and allocating money unfairly, so the effects are only just beginning to wear off now and even that is tempered by the high cost of real estate in many of the more "desireable" areas. I now see racial hope into the future, but i do believe there will come a great divide between an integrated poor and an integrated rich. It just doesn't seem to stop! Biological? Human Nature? Nature's way of family planning? Very painful for me.

The USA sure as H E L L, needs a similar apology day to yours, in particular for African Americans whose bloodlines go back to slavery era. But that will still not erase the fear and discomfort of any minority venturing into an at least indifferent/uneducated world about the minority culture, let alone the often more likely hostile or abrasive world toward that culture.

How to atone for many years of injustice?

First of all to "own" it for w/o that, you cannot give it away. Furthermore, the "victims" will observe and know that they have some friends on the "outside".

To me, those of us who "give a dam_n" must be committed and prepared to deal with the “discomfort” and “hurdles” of reaching out. I remember way back, one of the adolescents I mentored when I was single, later thanking me for shielding her as we ventured forth into the “white” world together. That “thank you” was an education for me, as I had thought nothing of it and did not really understand the level of her stress at age 12 when it was happening for her.

Her mom functioned well in “white” society and in fact, I led her to a more prestigious position as all she needed was an “invite” into the upper management world and from there, she was able to totally represent herself. An uncle was a prestigious banker and the child (now young woman) is actually now interested in “that” world. On the other hand, her other uncle succombed to the ghetto and he died of drug abuse and AIDS. The child's world at that time was in a supposedly integrated middle and later on high school, where the white and black kids did “not” integrate nor did their parents attempt to promote that socially outside the school system. So, what good was the supposed integration, if your parents could not schmooze at the golf club and make similar business deals or promote more integrated business practices and social activities? She was in a swing position and standing at a crossroad--she needed someone to welcome her to the "white" world, so that she will assist in making it a lot more brown in the future!
 cheynall

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 10
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/23/2007 3:59:22 PM
Serenity you have have made a number of interesting points.
However it should be made clear that the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" was not accurate and much of what was purported to
be fact was in fact fiction.
Check Andrew Bolt's article in 'Herald Sun'............(Melbourne, Australia)

I support Prime Minister John Howard's decision 100%. Any responsible person would have hoped that this action had been implemented decades ago.

All the excuses for not taking immediate action will .....( the illustrious "Chief Minister" of the A.C.T. has made an ass of himself by calling the decision 'racist').....fall on deaf ears. He's more concerned about the pornography business being curtailed in the A.C.T. therefore having his budget curtailed, than the welfare of innocent children.

The A.C.T. ( Australian Capital Territory) is the major location of the pornographic industry's trade in Australia. Any wonder there is concern.
Many aboriginal settlements are known to spend thousands of dollars each month on pornography, which would have been one of the reasons for Mr. Howard's decision. Money that should have been spent of food and necessities.

It is hoped that the Premiers of other states follow suit and put the care and concern of the children above all else, so they may have a future to look forward to untarnished by abhorent behaviour from their elders.

Couldn't help smiling about 'mrbad_kitty's' mention about internet porn....... The locations of the settlements in question in the Northern Territory of Australia in most cases don't have electricity let alone internet/phone facilities.
These are remote communities, hundreds of miles distance in between and not easily accessible.

Interesting to read others opinions as to why such horrific things are happening......... All the pontificating about the past is all unnecessary now.
What is important are the issues that affect people.....pink, yellow, black.......all people.

Pornography IS NOT of benefit to society. Particularly for the young who have enough to contend with in this age of "let it all hang out".....morales don't count.
Abuse of alcohol......the laws need to be addressed, and enforced.

The efforts of Mr. Howard to bring about change will hopefully cause many others to reflect and help change the actions of many adults towards children. All children.......
 serenityCW

Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 11
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/25/2007 1:24:28 AM
cheynall,
yes it was the rabbit proof fence that i saw. do you mind telling me why it was not correct? my friend from australia had said it was right on target. she was living here at the time with her husband consulting for one of the big boy corporations. also, i don't understand about your linkage between the ACT budget being cut and pornography. also are the aborigine children being used in pornography or are you saying that consumption of the world's pornography is high in their area? or both? they say the reports are qualititative. they also say the medical care is a problem there, so not clear are you saying it's a problem all over australia?

i do know that chemical addiction lowers the impulse control center for many and thus the pornograhpy addiction--not to mention that the behavior of a porn addict, even w/o the drinking is very similar to someone stoned out of their gourds. they will sit there, almost drooling, glazed and even watch it unawares that their children are in the room. the person i am talking about was not an aborigine. maybe they should be regulating him, although at least he did not molest his kids, just looked at all the naked people who were abused when they were kids, no doubt.

i personally coudln't care less if everyone walked around stark naked. i do care about abused kids growing up to see their only avenue of opportunity and income as being porn stars. and of course, child porn sends me into rages. it's just that to act as if only aborigines have this problem is to me a total denial of what is going on in the "white" middle class world today. ever read "people of the lie" by scott peck? he makes quite a point of this in his discourse on human evil.
 citizenoftheworld

Joined: 6/11/2007
Msg: 12
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/25/2007 12:35:18 PM

sexual abuse stats in the usa are quite high.

Its probably in line with most first world nations... *shrug*


could you do w/o the booze and porn forever?

Yup. If it meant that a single kid got spared, hell yeah. But even without that... its not that important... I guess I would drink more tea and actually have to date more, instead of staying home on my pc. In fact, thats a good idea. lol


how do you attest that aborigines are affected and not everyone else?

I understood that from my reading... However, I believe it should be applied across the board with no reference to race or ethnicity.


do you truly believe it's the porn and the booze? what caused the porn and the booze in the first place?

I don't think its 'only' the porn and booze... however, liquor does impair ones judgement. Thats a fact. Porn does stimulate sexual desire. putting the two together... and well, its obvious. I am not saying its the best solution, only that its 'a' solution and I am definately in support of more discussion to find the best perminent solution. :)


where is everyone regarding this thread? i find the topic not only horrific but despairing. does anyone care???? does anyone from australia care to enlighten? any indigenous people who identify here?

Its bad. I am not against natives at all. I want them to be prosperous and happy. I want them to have education and opportunity. Also, I don't think they need the European ancestory citizens there to 'father' them. However, there should be law and order to protect children, and that means all children, not just natives.
 Banquo

Joined: 2/23/2006
Msg: 13
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 1:58:59 AM
I'm honestly baffled by how quickly indigenous people lose the ties to their roots and way of life. Just like our Native population here in Canada, the Aborigines in Australia have bought into the attempt to 'civilize' them, with these same disasterous results. Who is to say that our way is better, or more fulfilling? You have these cultures that have existed harmoniously with each other, and Nature, for thousands of years; and, it only takes a couple hundred years to completely erase it. Before the colonists came along, they enjoyed a very happy and peaceful existence; why not just say, 'screw it, we're going back to the old ways'? They didn't have or need jobs, or money back then; so, why all the disparity in not having either now? It would seem to me that it shouldn't be too difficult to just return to life as it existed before; but, maybe that's all it takes, is a couple centuries of brainwashing, to believe that the way you have been existing in the past, is not 'human'.

Then you have the 'civilized' people scratching their heads, wondering what's wrong with these aboriginal folks? Why can't they just be more like us? Maybe that's it exactly, they aren't like us; and, we shouldn't have tried to make them believe they should be more like us. There is nothing wrong with being different, or living your life differently. Diversity in culture, is what makes this planet so fascinating; we should be celebrating that, instead of trying to homogenize everything into 'one' flavour. We should have left them alone, to enjoy the lives they 'want' to have, not the lives we 'think' they should have. This is just my opinion though, I could be wrong.

Sincerely

~banquo~
 cgmcb78

Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 14
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 6:46:57 AM
Is anyone who replied to this thread actually from Australia or know of Australian History?

There was a time in the not so distant past when Aboriginal children were taken from their families in an attempt to give them the best opportnity in life, hence the Stolen Generation.

Guess what, these children were subjected to the same type of abuse at the hands of their new white families.

The parents of these kids are just doing what they've learnt from the white fella and from their parents, the Stolen Generation, if the white fella can do it under the pretext of being civilised then it must be the right thing to do.

Banning booze and porn won't stop the problem, education won't stop the problem, it is a vicious cycle that has been started with no end in site, just look at the statistics, the majority of perpetrators of sexual abuse cases were victims, therefore the victims of today will be the perpetrators of tomorrow with their own children or other kids in their community.

At the end of the day the white fella and his civilisation devastated the black fella from the minute it arrived, European illnesses, alcohol, drugs and sexual assaults. The white fella now wants to fix the problem by taking away the children, money, booze and porn. The kids will return, the booze will return, the money will return and the porn will return, this solution will not work. Typical government do gooding that will just make matters worse and put communities back into the dark ages.
 sparda9

Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 15
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 6:48:44 AM
Um.... call me crazy or a bit naive but.... wouldn't that be considered being *gulp*.... being racist?


Humanity...
 Just2much

Joined: 1/25/2006
Msg: 16
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 7:04:22 AM
If that is what they are planning, it's certainly racist to target that area and especially the aboriginies with the ban. Can you imagine trying to do something like that in the US to ban anything from a certain race? Besides alcohol and porn addiction has very little to do with child sexual abuse, it's a totally different disorder.
 Chiny®™©

Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 17
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 8:50:54 AM

Is anyone who replied to this thread actually from Australia or know of Australian History?


Yes. There are a few of us. Just keeping an eye on where you're going with this.
 cheynall

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 18
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 9:10:37 PM
I give up.......who is the moderator here?????????
 cheynall

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 19
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 9:16:08 PM
You aren't an Aussie displaced person and can't stand to hear a differing opinion by chance?
Perhaps my anti-porn view is causing your starched underwear to itch????
Serenity somehow my post isn't to a 'guru's' liking....sorry....

 cheynall

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 20
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/26/2007 9:28:43 PM
You've got my gander up now...........
I"M ANTI-PORN ....if I had my way I'd ban it from electronic, film, and all forms of print media............get this....even the
THE INTERNET!!!!! Especially the internet.....
Penalty for the law breakers..........helping the Aboriginal communities to gain sanity in their unfortunate lives....especially
the children.
.....I do enjoy messaging myself you ........you.......troglodyte!
 serenityCW

Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 21
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Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/27/2007 1:07:57 AM
hi, i am back after a bit. had some ongoing personal issues at home, only to find that now i am back this thread has been moving along.

so, i'm a bit more confused. i was about to respond to the question is there an australian here by saying yes, cheynall is australian. then i was saddened that i had not heard back from her. but lo and behold, there were her several posts! not sure of the time difference, but maybe we are on together?

in whatever order, i can remember, but saving cheynall for last:

cgmcb78, i cannot remember if this was in the original article i read or somewhere in these posts, but my understanding was that bi-racial children were taken out of their homes and put into caucasian placement. are these the "stolen generation" children you talk about that were abused by their adoptive families?

i can only respond by my observation of the same issues here and as an adoptive mom of children who are at first review: african american and peruvian, go back to grandparents and add british, indigenous and spanish and then add the religion they were brought up in: hindu. to that add my ex who was from scotland, their adoptive dad and then me--my grandfather escaped from siberia for being a jew, landed in south africa a while but could not stand apartheid and then came here in the early 1900's!

many kids in foster care here in the usa STILL report sexual abuse in their "foster" homes. i am not sure that "adoptive" homes are as bad or at least signficantly worse than birth family homes. it used to be that white families would adopt children of color, with absolutely no understanding about the ramifications of raising the children in areas which were almost totally white. over time, advocacy groups put a significant stop to this, or at least put preference for familes of color over white familes--even if the white families were richer. this was because the children, as they got older, experienced extreme prejudice in the geographically "all white" areas--particularly when they reached dating age.

my kids, being older, had a say in their adoption at ages 10-13. because all three were a sibling group, because i had a significant african american background growing up and we lived in a diverse area, we were a mutual exception. here lies the difference however: kids have to be taken out of their birth families for "cause" and not because of the belief that ALL bi-racial kids would be better off with white familes than with black or brown families! as to the similarity: the racism (with underlying economics) to date in my country is the root cause of the many issues that poor african american familes have experienced to date. however, slowly but surely there is more and more true integration within select geographic areas--mostly cosmopolitan areas.

here they have attempted to do similar things, such as in the past impose mandatory sterilization against poor people with drug issues. maybe not a geographic approach but an indirect target at a number of minorities. however, because many people of color are poor, due to historic racism, this approach has been stopped via the advocates and in the courts i believe. many have cried out genocide for example. the similarity is the targeting, either directly or indirectly towards one ethnic group moreso than others. richer, whiter, drug addicted moms are often bailed out by family members who have the legal means to prevent anyone from sterilizing their birth lines. the poor would not have such means. thus it is not the immediate response to an immediate issue, but the ramifications and the precedents it would set legally.

banquo, why would an aborigine want to leave or stay with a reservation type environment? aside from the history of colonializing which is the same for the usa, not to mention the slaughter we have had here back in our own colonial times, if we skip ahead to now....i used to have a male friend who was half austrian and half pueblo. his dad met his mom in the war and they lived on the reservation. i suppose it's also not that different from being born in the midwest here in the usa.

some have the urge to leave their parochial hometown environment. in the midwest many leave the small town due to boredom and wanting more excitement and opportunity, for others it's to get away from all the gossip and small town politics. sometimes that excitement leads them to great things, other times they land in the streets. on the other hand, many want the comfort of their roots and their family and the more peaceful, slower pace. same for the reservations--but add to it the racism that they must fight along the way. i guess that's why my friends parents stayed on the reservation and why he chose to leave, although he swears by his childhood as being very happy days. maybe if the rest of the "white" world were more welcoming and willing to absorb and not replace the culture, it would be easier to "integrate".

just2much. sorry, you are very wrong. alcohol and porn, at "addiction" levels do and will lead to child sexual abuse. just go to an open meeting, such as adult children of alcoholics and you will hear the stories--at least on the east coast usa, as they are more open. now, to be fair, some drink and some do look at porn and do not abuse children, as they can take it or leave it. they are not addicted and their brains haven't been fogged over to eliminate their impulse control centers. also, you may be focusing on the other child sexual abusers--the sociopaths, who do it for power and control and will often also kill the children. two different issues. the latter doesn't need to be drunk. they can do it willingly and consciously.

ok cheynall. not sure who you are angry with and exactly why. you say:
I do enjoy messaging myself you ........you.......troglodyte

i don't understand this. what do you mean messaging yourself and what is a troglodyte? see, i used to have this with my husband from scotland. we had no clue what each other was saying or the same words meant different things. are you reacting to the fact that some people say this is a racist approach or do you think some people are arguing pro-pornography? i think re the latter, it is more that they are saying that even if they did agree, it will not go away! just look here in the usa during prohibition when alcohol abuse went undercover and blackmarket. i think that's what they are saying.

as to racism. that means many things to many people. to me, racism is not personal prejudice. to me, we are all racist to some degree in that those of us who are white, even though we did not cause it and did not want it, abuse of people of color did happen and in the infrastructure of societies, not just australia but also usa and although many will cringe, canada as well--there has historically been all WHITE areas who have benefited from the resultant society--even if indirectly. if i live in an all white area with better schools or better health care or being more socially accepted if i am white, i benefit. i may want to share what i have with non whites but nonetheless then it has to come from me and they cannot get it w/o me. now slowly this changes. but i think the point is "not" that the alcohol and porn "addiction" is okay for the aborigines, i think the point is that it is also not okay for the rest of the world. but try changing that by legislating it away. do you really think that the ones making the money on all this are aborigine? why aren't they going after the PRODUCERS of the porn??? see what i mean? that is where the racism lies. we live in a very different culture and paradigm between countries and within countries and often it takes a lot of communicating to see that with the same words, we are saying different things, based upon our different experiences.

so at any rate, i wish you would answer my last questions in the above post as i am trying to get educated by real people in the real world and not just some half butted article. please respond to this very long, i know, post. with my lymes disease and my extremly "logical" (!) nature, i have a hard time summarizing. but my heart is in my words.

i also am not into country bashing. i think we all have a common thread. and i think people in all countries are suffering from a lot of denial. as to the alcohol and porn addiction, i am fortunate to be able to drink a glass of wine and stop and when i want to self-medicate, i drink coffee, eat bagels and talk my brains off and dance. others turn to chemical dependency. here i go to al anon for that as my dad, my ex's, and my adopted kids all have had chemical dependency issues. it has no cultural or racial boundaries.
 paul1066

Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 22
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/27/2007 1:39:59 AM
Global warming, Wars , child abuse, continual abuse of this beautiful Planet, i.e pollution
racial discrimination, greed, lies, etc, etc, same old story, were human beings, we are the
Virus that will eventually destroy everything, oh of course unless God comes down to stop it
 Leatheryman

Joined: 3/10/2007
Msg: 23
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/27/2007 4:39:46 AM
There are some here in Australia that would criticise the government action on this issue and call it a "Trojan Horse" tactic to seize control of aboriginal land in the Northern Territory. I can't say I doubt this would be the case.

People in these communities live in absolute squalor. Most are addicted to alcohol and many sniff petrol as a drug. They are a dispossessed people, even though they live on land that is supposedly their own. They have been so corrupted by western vice, many are at a point of no return.

Forget internet porn, most people in these communities would be lucky to have land line telephones. Mobile phones are occasionally sold to them by predatory retailers, who usually confuse them and coerce them into contracts they cannot afford. But taking away what most of us would call basic freedoms, will of course cause civil unrest and disorder. Enter the extra federally funded police and you have effectively a police state and control of the area.

This seemingly "new" or previously "undiscovered" problem of child abuse, coincides with the very controversial acquittal of a northern Queensland police officer of manslaughter, following the (yet another) death in custody of a Palm Island aboriginal in November 2004. The man died of severe internal injuries sustained (liver was cleaved in two, portal vien ruptured) during his arrest for abusive language. He had no previous record and was not provided any medical assistance, despite his cries of pain long after the cell door was locked.
All of a sudden child abuse is rife in these communities at pandemic proportions, and federal troops are arriving to protect children exposed to abuse.

Prime minister Howard, likened the emergency to that of Hurricane Katrina....
 Chiny®™©

Joined: 7/2/2006
Msg: 24
view profile
History
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/27/2007 7:34:23 AM

as to racism. that means many things to many people. to me, racism is not personal prejudice. to me, we are all racist to some degree in that those of us who are white, even though we did not cause it and did not want it, abuse of people of color did happen and in the infrastructure of societies, not just australia but also usa and although many will cringe, canada as well--there has historically been all WHITE areas who have benefited from the resultant society--even if indirectly. if i live in an all white area with better schools or better health care or being more socially accepted if i am white, i benefit. i may want to share what i have with non whites but nonetheless then it has to come from me and they cannot get it w/o me. now slowly this changes. but i think the point is "not" that the alcohol and porn "addiction" is okay for the aborigines, i think the point is that it is also not okay for the rest of the world. but try changing that by legislating it away. do you really think that the ones making the money on all this are aborigine? why aren't they going after the PRODUCERS of the porn??? see what i mean? that is where the racism lies. we live in a very different culture and paradigm between countries and within countries and often it takes a lot of communicating to see that with the same words, we are saying different things, based upon our different experiences.


Totally agree with your statement above. It should also be noted that it is wholly applicable to the present situation here in Australia.

The general situation of the Native Australian peoples is not good in comparison with the migrant peoples (the rest of the population). The injustices are ongoing and will be for a long time yet. Solutions are always possible, but as usual, a long time coming.

It should also be noted that we are in a Federal Gov’t election year and the gov’t is struggling to improve its lot in the eyes of the voters. Needless to say that after the election is over the status quo will be returned and the people will continue to try to survive with all the injustices of the world against them.

What can we do?

Maintain the rage and continue with the pressure for change at both the domestic and international level. Perhaps they (the gov’t), can be shamed into fixing the problem on a permanent basis. I believe that a lot can be achieved through the United Nations. Australia is bound by so many UN Treaties and this is where the Gov’t can be forced to action concerns from the outside or face the shame of the world.

Alea iacta est concordia cum veritate
 NaamahReincarnated

Joined: 4/2/2007
Msg: 25
Australia to Ban Aborigine Access to Alcohol & Pornography
Posted: 6/27/2007 10:23:24 AM
Discussion of such matters often seems to be overwhelmingly focussed on blame, guilt, the mistakes of the past, much talk of what won't work, and comments about racism. I would simply like to offer some quotes from Noel Pearson, director of the Cape York Institute for Policy and Leadership. He is an Australian Aboriginal. He seems to me to have a very balanced and realistic outlook, and I know if I said some of these things I may well be shouted down as a racist, so I'll use his words....(these are just bits and pieces from a much longer article)


My assessment is:

* The focus on grog and policing is correct, but as well as policing there must be a strategy for building indigenous social and cultural ownership.

* Making welfare payments conditional is correct, but the Howard-Brough plan needs to be amended so responsible behaviour is encouraged.

* The land-related measures are clumsy and ideological, but they are not an attempt at a land grab, and the problems with the land measures are nowhere near as high a priority as action for the welfare of children.

* This is not my plan. It is the federal Government's plan. If it were up to me I would do some things differently. But I am not the government and, like everyone, I have to deal with the realities as they are, not how I would prefer them to be.

A few simple questions lead me to the view that decisive action is needed.

First, is the situation of children's welfare in indigenous communities in the NT and the states a situation of national priority? We have just had the Anderson-Wild report on the NT. Similar reports have come down in recent years in Queensland, NSW, South Australia and Western Australia. No one denies the situation is a national priority.

Second, is the situation with children's welfare one of national emergency? Child protection is not like poverty or educational underachievement or general socioeconomic disadvantage. Time and deliberation can be taken when considering and devising solutions to these large structural problems.

But what do you do when a child is being subjected to abuse this very day? What do you do when a child is likely to be abused next week? What do you when the abuse is going to happen the week after next? What do we do when there are scores of children involved across the communities, the states and territories? If it were your child at risk of this suffering, would you think this a matter of emergency?

This is not a moral panic. The abuse is real. This is not a media or political beat-up. The report from Pat Anderson and Rex Wild confirms a reality of suffering. Something has to be done to relieve the suffering now, not in six months, not in two years. Now.

We can't rehabilitate people from alcohol or drug dependence immediately. We can't fix the poor education immediately. We can't fix up the poor health immediately. But we must stop the suffering straight away. Everyone, from the Prime Minister to his bitterest opponents, centres their preferred strategy or response on the fate of the children. No one can escape this fact: the fate of the children is the bottom line. Whatever one thinks of Howard and Brough, their strategy is justified on the basis of the fate of the children.

If not Brough and Howard's plan to stop the suffering, then what alternative plan should be pursued? Here most of the critics fall into a deafening silence. They have vociferous views about what will not work, but they are silent about what will work. So the sum total of their response - "we don't need missionary paternalism again", "prohibition doesn't work", "indigenous people must consent to the changes", "we need more government services", "we have to provide rehabilitation", "we have to deal with intergenerational trauma", "we have to deal with things in a holistic way" - is inaction and procrastination while children's lives continue to be ruined. It is not that the points made by the critics are wrong - they are often correct - but their criticism does not translate and often cannot be translated into action.

I believe the Government's proposal will make a difference in the short term. If one accepts that the proposed measures will save women and children this year, then the bottom line is this: rejecting the Government's emergency measures equates with giving priority to some other issue before rescuing the children.

Does the fact that Howard and Brough are politically motivated in the conception and activation of their plan make their plan unsupportable? Does the fact that there are electoral calculations underpinning this manoeuvre make their proposed intervention wrong? Of course not. I could not care less if the plan is accompanied by political motivations. If the plan is aimed at providing relief from suffering then this has priority over everything.

Grog and policing are the most urgent priorities. The Anderson-Wild report makes clear, as if we did not already know, that there is a direct connection between the epidemic of grog and drug abuse and the neglect and abuse of children. We have always known grog is a problem for our people. But to know that grog is a problem is not enough. Because we have plenty of problems. We have plenty of explanations for our problems. We have plenty of proposed solutions.

If you acknowledge that grog is a problem but you don't give it emphasis, priority or focus, then it is likely you will do nothing about it. This is the story of Aboriginal policy and Aboriginal leadership in this country. We all have said that grog is a problem, but we have not given it the emphasis or priority or focus it needs for us to get on top of the problem. The Howard-Brough plan to tackle grog and to provide policing is correct. However, the plan needs to be amended so that there is a concerted strategy to build indigenous social and cultural ownership.

Howard and Brough need to understand the challenge is this: we must restore Aboriginal law in these communities. We must restore Aboriginal values and Aboriginal morality in our communities. Aboriginal law, properly understood, is not the problem, it is the solution. When I say Aboriginal law, I just do not mean the laws that prevailed in our pre-colonial classical culture, I mean our contemporary values and expectations about behaviour. The old law did not deal with grog, drugs, gambling, money and private property.

These new things have represented a fundamental challenge for Aboriginal culture. Many communities have struggled to apply the values that underpinned their traditional law to these new challenges. We have not met this challenge successfully. We desperately need to. We need to develop an Aboriginal law that deals effectively with these new challenges: grog, drugs, gambling, money and private property.
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