| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 2:50:03 PM | Karma defies free will. Think about it, you do something negative and therefore there are negative consequences to yourself. Now not all of these negative consequences are natural disasters, a lot actually involve other people. Therefore some force causes other people to act negatively towards you in some way even in accidental circumstances. Let me try to give you a few examples: You do something bad, then proceed to ask out a girl/boy, karma makes that person say "no", to you to punish you, therefore that person lost her/his free will at that point in time. What about if Karma punishes you with a car accident in which someone else hits you. That person must have been controlled by Karma into hitting you; therefore he/she didn’t have free will.
If karma does exist then the only explanation I can think of, is that all of our actions are pre-meditated and orchestrated so that everything fits into place as such. Us being actors in a play so to speak.
Can anyone give me an explanation of Karma that doesn't defy free will?
PS: I don’t actually believe in Karma. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 3:05:22 PM | OP
I don't beleive karma defies free will. We all are free, we have choices, but also we should remember that our choices come with consequences also. If you are good, good things will follow you, and likewise the same is true for bad.
Now some people don't necessarily consent to karma and we may see it alittle differently depending on religion. Christians beleive you can be forgiven for past wrongs, that's the heart of the Christian message , but obviously we still maintain the reaping what you sow truth/principle.
So basically they are not exclusive at all, but they (free will and karma) work together in a systematic way that enables us to have free will, but it also keeps us in check because there are consequences to our actions, be they good or bad | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 4:00:31 PM |
Can anyone give me an explanation of Karma that doesn't defy free will?
I'll try.
Karma isn't a mystical outside force that makes people do things. It comes from inside you. If you've done something bad and don't think you deserve a date with that person you've asked out, you will unconsciously sabotage yourself and make them refuse. Maybe you pick your nose while asking without realizing you're doing it, or just give off a creepy vibe. In any case, it's you making them say "no" even though it's not conscious.
The second example you give (the car accident) doesn't make sense as an act of Karma if you're talking about it as a controlling force in the universe. If someone else hits you with a car, you aren't the only person who will suffer because of it. As I understand Karma, it doesn't go around punishing a bunch of other people just to get to you. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 4:29:08 PM |
If someone else hits you with a car, you aren't the only person who will suffer because of it. As I understand Karma, it doesn't go around punishing a bunch of other people just to get to you.
Well let’s say both drivers were being punished by Karma in that scenario. That means Karma must have altered at least one drivers actions to cause the accident. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 4:58:11 PM | Karma is the ripple effect.
Yes we do choose our words and actions, but very few of us consider the repercussions or are willing to accept the consequences. There are too many people that just don’t take responsibility for or own their actions.
Look at the definition of Karma: the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence. (mirriam-webster dictionary)
Karma can have small lessons that we can experience in the same lifetime- and big lessons that if not turned around in this life time – WILL be learned in the next.
Karma is not random, but specific to your actions. Simplified- if you steal from someone you are going to feel what it is like to have something stolen- and the person that steals from you is not forced to do it by karma.
Karma is not an entity waiting to get you and make you suffer. It is in your hands- your choices determine whether or not you will need to experience the lessons from the other point of view.
Technically what you do changes your vibration to attract more people like you- so if you do good things you will encounter good people- if you do bad things your path will cross with people who do the same things
The Golden rule speaks of this- “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” This golden rule is found in MANY faiths around the world- sometimes worded differently- but same message.
If you lie- you will be lied to; if you cheat – you will be cheated on- not necessarily by the person you wronged – but someone else.
Karma is how the universe gets you to learn the lesson about why you should not do some of the things you do. It puts you on the receiving end.
Yes, we all have free will- but most who exercises this, use the selfish desires as a guide and then don’t want to accept or recognize that the repercussions or back lash is a result of their own actions.
Like dropping a pebble in a pond, the ripples go outwards and get bigger until it reaches the far shore.
Our free will comes into play when we are faced with the decision to drop the pebble in or not- and if we do are we willing to consider how the ripples will affect those in its path.
hope that helps.
Q | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 5:20:37 PM | | Every action (free will) has a reaction (karma)... the two are inexorably linked.. IMO | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/25/2007 5:57:07 PM |
Well let’s say both drivers were being punished by Karma in that scenario. That means Karma must have altered at least one drivers actions to cause the accident.
Or one of the drivers felt he needed to be punished, and unconsciously caused the accident himself.
But I'd still have to say that doesn't sound like a good example of Karma as I understand it, because it involves too many other people. It sounds more like bad luck. Even if Karma exists, sometimes an accident is just an accident. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/27/2007 4:43:48 PM |
Can anyone give me an explanation of Karma that doesn't defy free will?
Not really an explanation, but this age-old question immediately came to mind: "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Occasionally there are circumstances when something tragic and/or undeserved happens to an 'innocent'.
Man-oh-man, I'd rather have the powers that be spell it out for me, detailing in no uncertain terms exactly what it is I'm screwing up, and easy to follow instructions regarding how to cease and desist. Personally, I've experienced 'the good, bad, and ugly that goes around comes around'. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/27/2007 5:10:22 PM | Not really an explanation, but this age-old question immediately came to mind: "Why do bad things happen to good people?" Occasionally there are circumstances when something tragic and/or undeserved happens to an 'innocent'.
And why do good things happen to bad people?
We live in a universe of infinite possibilities, My father used to say, "If it can go wrong, it will" The same applies I think to the opposite... If life brakes down on you, it can be fixed. I have to be an optimist. LOL!
Let the Karma in and its light will show a way. :) | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/28/2007 12:20:13 AM | This thought that Karma is an opposite effect of Free Will is very much like Faith being challenged by Free Will.
Fundamentally, I think you are looking at it far too simplistically. I may not be able to explain it but I will give it a try. Free will is the ability for you to make choices, it does not affect how the world/cosmos might react to you. Or even if it reacts. It may just act out that karma on you totally regardless of whatever you do unless your free will has an act of nullifying one of your former karmic mistakes.
Say you are gambling and have the choice to pick any one of ten cards(freewill) but regardless of which card you pick you will lose your winnings because you stole earlier from someone else. How are the two linked?
They're not. They only appear to be.
It's a lot like my belief on death, when its your time to go you will go no matter what the reason. Some things are just much much much bigger than your will. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/28/2007 10:41:00 AM |
This thought that Karma is an opposite effect of Free Will is very much like Faith being challenged by Free Will.
I guess I just don't see the conflict.. I see the two as being intertwined, whether we are conscious of that or not..
Some things are just much much much bigger than your will.
Yes, but does that mean your will cannot be linked to what is bigger? As in your will affecting the whole while the whole simultaneously affects your will?
Paradoxical yes, but that is how I view things.. as a cocreation with the universe.. JMO ;) | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/28/2007 11:33:54 AM |
Karma defies free will.
It can, it does... espescially when Freewill is being intentfully exercised in an action or inaction which could result in negative repercussions.
Can anyone give me an explanation of Karma that doesn't defy free will?
... for Karma not to defy Freewill, the Will being exerted would be of a nature that was not malignant in its' intent.
PS: I don’t actually believe in Karma.
I don't need to believe...observation works well enough. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/28/2007 2:36:49 PM | Therefore some force causes other people to act negatively towards you in some way even in accidental circumstances.
I have an experiment for you... Walk around with a chip on your shoulder for one day and see how many good feelings you spread... The next day walk around smiling, holding doors for people and being kind... I'm willing to bet you'd see a difference in how you are recieved and how many smiles you spread.
If karma does exist then the only explanation I can think of, is that all of our actions are pre-meditated and orchestrated so that everything fits into place as such. Us being actors in a play so to speak.
What if the play is improvised? In a world of difference and change, there are countless outcomes available... Choices are made...
What about if Karma punishes you with a car accident in which someone else hits you. That person must have been controlled by Karma into hitting you; therefore he/she didn’t have free will.
You are limiting Karma to the spiritual realm... It has been realised in the physical under the name "cause and effect" or "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"... A car accident is a physical occurance and can be broken down and explained through cause and effect... | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/29/2007 10:58:55 PM | Good experiment.
I guess I just don't see the conflict.. I see the two as being intertwined, whether we are conscious of that or not..
Then we're on the same side of that point because that is exactly my point. People often see two things on seperate sides (like freewill and destiny or faith) when really what they mean is that they can not reason how the two are linked together.
Yes, but does that mean your will cannot be linked to what is bigger? As in your will affecting the whole while the whole simultaneously affects your will?
I don't know. I was talking about the big D so with that in mind I guess not. My belief is that when it is a persons time to die they will die. Whether it will be a plane crash or a brain stroke or an annuerysm or heart attack. It will just happen because it is meant to happen by a will that is superior to ours.
But the biggest joke is all of us taking this seriously when the OP does not even believe in karma. If you don't believe in Karma then there is no conflict. Either that or you are lying and we are going to roast you over the hot coals and feed your flesh to the jackals of the night.  | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/30/2007 4:54:31 AM | Being that Karma is a Buddhist concept i don't understand how they can ascribe to its validity. Of course they have the spiritual experiences that correspond and validate this for themselves i suppose. But as a concept it makes sense to promote non attachment and Karma in the same breath. I understand the concept as it has been told to me however i find it hard to believe that we have been reincarnated especially from plants and animals or even bugs. Being a three hundred year old tree would be cause for wanting someone to chop me down so i could move on or may be not if i was planted by another special tree...
In any event I don't think karma as i understand it by passes free will. We look at our lives as this is it. The wheel of life teaches us that we are beyond this life and we are only living a small part of the evolution at this moment. So something that happens to us in this life that seems unexplainable could be explained if we saw the whole picture the lives past and the harmony that is being created though karmic balancing. Bad things can and do happen to good people, and the buddhist belief's account for this seemingly unjust situation. If one was not in harmony last life then harmony needs to be restored for evolution to take place. It is one of the highest aspirations to be incarnated as a human and its karmic patterns are of the greatest impact on us, as free will gives us choice.
I say even if it was all true it doesn't matter. If we live our lives like it is the only one and do all that we can in our power to leave the world a better place we may do ourselves a great service if we do come back and if not it will simply be a better place.
crazylilting | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/30/2007 11:37:43 AM | Being that Karma is a Buddhist concept i don't understand how they can ascribe to its validity
I guess the same way some people ascribe to the validity of the concept of time... It's not just Buddhists Crazylilting...
From Wiki:
Karma (Sanskrit: kárma (help·info), kárman- "act, action, performance"[1]; Pali: kamma) is the concept of "action" or "deed" in Dharmic religions understood as denoting the entire cycle of cause and effect described in Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Buddhist philosophies.
| |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/30/2007 12:47:28 PM |
Then we're on the same side of that point because that is exactly my point. People often see two things on seperate sides (like freewill and destiny or faith) when really what they mean is that they can not reason how the two are linked together.
Sorry Random, I obviously misunderstood you :)
My belief is that when it is a persons time to die they will die. Whether it will be a plane crash or a brain stroke or an annuerysm or heart attack. It will just happen because it is meant to happen by a will that is superior to ours.
I believe in reincarnation.. and with that I also believe that I cocreated many of the circumstances that I face in this life with God prior to my incarnation.. in that sense, my will was aligned with the will of God even in terms of my ultimate bodily demise... but this is of course, just my point of view and is in no way meant to detract from yours...
I enjoy your perspective :) | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/30/2007 1:25:04 PM |
If karma does exist then the only explanation I can think of, is that all of our actions are pre-meditated and orchestrated so that everything fits into place as such. Us being actors in a play so to speak.
The earth is a stage scenario has some merit IMO
If you believe in free will you should know that there is nothing mystic or religious about it:
"Free will; 1) ability to make choices that are NOT externally determined, 2) ability to make a decision WITHOUT outside coercion. "
The Collins Dictionary (Copyright 2002 Lexibook Edition)
Thus...
Karma is fate/destiny and is not based on free will. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/30/2007 2:24:34 PM |
I don't beleive karma defies free will. We all are free, we have choices, but also we should remember that our choices come with consequences also. If you are good, good things will follow you, and likewise the same is true for bad.
Now some people don't necessarily consent to karma and we may see it alittle differently depending on religion. Christians beleive you can be forgiven for past wrongs, that's the heart of the Christian message , but obviously we still maintain the reaping what you sow truth/principle.
So basically they are not exclusive at all, but they (free will and karma) work together in a systematic way that enables us to have free will, but it also keeps us in check because there are consequences to our actions, be they good or bad
Makes sense to me. On the other hand, karma, as i see it, is more like a belief. As it is said, 'we create our realities'.....so, if there is any karma, then it must have something to do with the way we choose and create our realities.....and if one believes in retribution, it is most likely what one creates into one's reality - be it in this life time or another life time - is relative to what one feels and wishes to believe must be. | |
|
| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 6/30/2007 3:13:56 PM |
Being that Karma is a Buddhist concept i don't understand how they can ascribe to its validity.
In a strict sense I suppose so but not in a more overall sense. It's either in Genesis or Exodus where it clearly says if you do something wrong it will cause something seven times as great to happen to your children. Now I don't know about you but that is still roughly Karmic to me. The real difference is that it does not come back to you but your children instead.
I believe in reincarnation.. and with that I also believe that I cocreated many of the circumstances that I face in this life with God prior to my incarnation.. in that sense, my will was aligned with the will of God even in terms of my ultimate bodily demise... but this is of course, just my point of view and is in no way meant to detract from yours...
I enjoy your perspective :)
I enjoy yours as well. Could you explain more of what you mean by that? You cocreated the circumstances that you face in life? Have you read Richard Bach's Illusions? He has a saying in there that is like that. You would really like his perspective. Very enlightening. Someone started a thread about him in the off topic forum last month I think it was.
I lean towards believing in reincarnation but I wish I understood the whole thing about how it got edited out of the Bible along with certain books. In my gut I get a feeling there must be more to all of this, that we are all more tied together than we often think we are, that there is reincarnation and some kind of karma. I like to think all of what seems chaotic to our little minds makes perfect sense in a larger sense just that we don't have the ability and perspective to see it that way. So I try to have faith in that. Not that it is always easy because it certainly is not easy! | |
|
| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 6/30/2007 9:12:04 PM |
Karma isn't a mystical outside force that makes people do things. It comes from inside you. If you've done something bad and don't think you deserve a date with that person you've asked out, you will unconsciously sabotage yourself and make them refuse.
Not quite. Karma is not this silly western notion of "what comes around goes around". It DOES cause you to reap what you have sown, but the "payback" comes in the next life, not this one.
The idea that karma is a "punishing" or a "payback" force in this lifetime is something we westerners have come up with.
Karma is the accumulation of positive or negative energies that your soul acquires due to your actions in this life. At the end of your life cycle the fate of your NEXT LIFE is determined by your accumulated karma.
Being that Karma is a Buddhist concept i don't understand how they can ascribe to its validity.
This is only partially true, it is a hindu concept that the great buddha borrowed from his parent faith. Buddha came from the hindu faith in the exact same way christ came from the jewish. Karma was an existing concept that had been part of hinduism for many generations before buddha came along and added to it. He didnt create it, he didnt even refine or perfect the theory, he only came up with HIS soulution to what he saw as a problem.
He accepted the reality of karmas existance, but rather than the hindu seeking rebirth in a higher form with each lifetime... he concluded that ANY rebirth only put the soul back into the world of desire and suffering, and that was a bad thing... and thus his pupils were taught to monitor their actions and avoid the accumulation of ANY karma, be it good or bad... so that the soul might be freed of the cycle of life, death, and rebirth compleatly.
So again, Karma is not the "instant justice vending machine" many westerners have taken it to mean... it is more akin to the westerners notion of dying and being judged by an impartial and strict god set on giving you exactly what you deserve based on your actions. (think of the old testament version of god, but more a force of balance and justice... much more cosmic and vast in scope, lacking the petty human emotions such as being jealous or having favorites as the biblical god is known to have.)
So.. the answer is "No, Karma does not affect your free will at all, but it will provide the conditions of your NEXT birth and life based on the things YOU HAVE FREELY CHOSEN IN THIS LIFE"
J | |
|
| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/1/2007 2:46:28 AM | Thank you pujakama J,
I enjoyed reading your post and clarification of Karma. I was unaware of the Buddhist belief of trying to balance out the karma set in motion. But it makes sense when meditation is intended non action or the opposite to action. If one can clear out Karma then they won't have to come back.
I've often wondered what didn't sit right with me when there was all this talk about non attachment but now it makes sense that if one holds anything in their attention they are creating a karmic agreement... So really then all this talk about present moment is only important if one is attaining their souls freedom to not come back as it were. The idea of Karma is only important if you are coming back and if one doesn't believe they do come back it is a non issue.
So again, Karma is not the "instant justice vending machine" many westerners have taken it to mean... it is more akin to the westerners notion of dying and being judged by an impartial and strict god set on giving you exactly what you deserve based on your actions. (think of the old testament version of god, but more a force of balance and justice... much more cosmic and vast in scope, lacking the petty human emotions such as being jealous or having favorites as the biblical god is known to have.)
If only it were instant hmmmmm life would be grand indeed... the world would definitely be a different place wouldn't it. Just think the first negative move to war would be stuck down *perhaps by lightning* that would be cool... ooops sent out some karmic ripples.
Thanks to all those who pointed out that Karma was a Hindu concept that Buddha adapted things are so much more clearer and now i understand why some things never sat right with me when i heard them.
crazylilting:hug: | |
|
| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/1/2007 5:21:08 AM |
If only it were instant hmmmmm life would be grand indeed... the world would definitely be a different place wouldn't it.
Can you imagine, if we all decided to apply what we thought was best for others including the whole world, how would anything be?
Just think the first negative move to war would be stuck down *perhaps by lightning* that would be cool... ooops sent out some karmic ripples.
Then one could not say that there is free will.
 | |
|
| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/1/2007 8:30:53 AM | | I think karma was created to keep things in order. If law didn't exist, would there still be karam? Free will on the other hand is quite complicated. I mean how would you describe free will? If you believe in god and destiny, then how would free will exist if your life was meant to do something. Are they in conflict, well, depends on the situations. Many of the above post stated different scenerios :) | |
|
| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/1/2007 1:45:40 PM |
This is only partially true, it is a hindu concept that the great buddha borrowed from his parent faith. Buddha came from the hindu faith in the exact same way christ came from the jewish. Karma was an existing concept that had been part of hinduism for many generations before buddha came along and added to it. He didnt create it, he didnt even refine or perfect the theory, he only came up with HIS soulution to what he saw as a problem.
Well....I do agree in part. My understanding of Eastern religions in this particular area or issue as it relates to Buddha and Hinduism is that the Buddha was basically a reformer , and he wanted to isolate himself from some of the "flaws" that he say in Hinduism, ....therefore he spontaneiously started what we know today as "Buddhism", but he didn't mean to start his own "religion" per se ,.... he really didn't like the organized or established rituals or set rules that Hinduism in many areas had. For example, he hated the caste system and he didn't beleive that was a dignified way to treat other human beings, so he (as far as his Buddhism is concerned) did away with the caste system. There were other things too that Buddha didn't appreciate about Hinduism. It is true that karma,.....that principle has been around for a long time and it seems that in one way or another every religion/faith has some version of this.
All humans have free will to some extent, but as was mentioned many times already.....for every act there is a consequance and reward...I myself beleive that. while there are differing opinion about the extent of power that Karma has....most of us still realize the basic reality of reaping what you sow. | |
|
Home
login 
