|
|
|
|
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 12:23:40 PM | Question to all, Don't mean to offend, just trying to understand...
Bible talks about hell being this and that... fiery this.. satan that... bad people go here..good people go there. Jesus did that.. God said this.. miracle here.. punishment there... etc..
Now unless the 'original' manuscript fell from 'heaven' which was written in gods own hand then how can people follow and accept something that was written by man (men). The power of that pen has influenced millions of people for hundreds of years. Why put your trust in people that have been dead for 2000 years living in a COMPLETELY different time and and perhaps used the bible for influential purposes?
If the Bible said hell was a lake of marshmellows people would believe it just because it was in the Bible. That is the feeling im getting.
Now if the Pope one day came and said GOD spoke to me, if god spoke to anyone i would think the 'holiest' person would qualify, and he officially made changes to the Bible..would you accept these changes? why not if he says God spoke to him? You believe people who have been dead for 2000 years.. why not him.. (hypothetical question if it were to happen)
I am not saying the Bible isn't useful. When interpreted properly and used it has great value (family values, morals, compassion, forgiveness) ;although used for nonsense and negativity such as implying homosexuality is a sin (doesn't god have limitless love for everyone? how can there be any exceptions then).. is a huge downside along with the countless wars and deaths that have occurred of people trying to instill Christianity in other cultures.. (like any other religion..) ok im rambling...
Are you going to make the argument that God spoke these words to the apostles, prophets and others? How come God hasnt spoken to anyone lately. (Oh thats right.. he speaks to your prez) .. kidding aside. Now im sure a bunch of you are gonna jump at me and say God speaks to me when i listen and when i prayer and such and such.. how do you differ from God and your conscience.. mind.. spirit.?.. you would think after a couple of thousand years, people moving forward in science, politics, lifestyle change, philosiphies.. you would think the Bible would go through changes along with man. Rather than sticking to ancient text that was written in a different age. Should'nt the bible evolve as well to encompass all what we know now, rather than what was known then? | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 12:29:05 PM |
How come God hasnt spoken to anyone lately.
And what if "he" has? That person would most likely be seen as a charlatan or as suffering from schizophrenia... but it was okay back then to hear voices from burning bushes.. ?
Should'nt the bible evolve as well to encompass all what we know now, rather than what was known then?
You have touched upon the exact reason that I am spiritual vs religious.. religions do not seem to allow for or encourage evolution of ideology..
Excellent post :) | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 1:16:28 PM | Hey... a great thread!
You ask some very important questions... I like a man that thinks. You are on my wavelength... the ancient text needs better defining if people are going to understand its messages, because it does itself no favours clouded in contradictions.
We need a clear understanding, not poetic fallacies.
Like sassy, it makes me spiritually determined and anti-doctrine. | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 2:43:39 PM | hey feeltobefree
Why put your trust in people that have been dead for 2000 years living in a COMPLETELY different time and and perhaps used the bible for influential purposes?
Well, for one because there's no conflict of interest. And two because water was free back then... less polution and better memory chips in the ole noggins since tv wasn't clogging the attentiveness and memorization came easier since fruit had most of the vitamins still in it and wine wasn't as fermented. Unless of course you were poor... ever get drunk off vinegar yeeeeeeee
I am not saying the Bible isn't useful. When interpreted properly and used it has great value (family values, morals, compassion, forgiveness) ;although used for nonsense and negativity such as implying homosexuality is a sin (doesn't god have limitless love for everyone? how can there be any exceptions then
You were doing so well... then you bring in the only issue that is to me nonsensical. The scriptures about unisexual behavior are very clearly pointed to as unnatural and therefore harmful and counter productive.
My face could turn blue but I was born black... I was not born nor can anyone convince me that anyone is born with full blown desire for the opposite sex. (with the obvious medical extreme exceptions... ambiguous genetailia is one that I know of.) However I will say this, I in no way agree with any christian who uses blanket statements like "all homosexuals are going to hell". It's just that like addiction I truely believe homosexuality to be a spiritual malady that is harmful to the practicioner.
morals for me mean truthful compassion and not agreeing with something to be popular.
How come God hasnt spoken to anyone lately.
Gods words must be sought out. Prophecies and warnings are going forth everyday to nations, groups and individuals. They come out of the mouthes of babes for those who are listening. | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 3:31:17 PM | Now unless the 'original' manuscript fell from 'heaven' which was written in gods own hand then how can people follow and accept something that was written by man (men). The power of that pen has influenced millions of people for hundreds of years. Why put your trust in people that have been dead for 2000 years living in a COMPLETELY different time
The power of the Word is that it transcends the falacies of men. Even though it may have changed hands many times and has been rewritten ,the message remains the same. The Truth can still be found within it. Whenever archeologists discover older versions they still find that they still say the same thing. The message hasn't changed. Because of this, we can have faith that those who had a part in its writting truly were inspired by God.
and and perhaps used the bible for influential purposes?
Of course there have been many who used the Bible for influential purpose. In my life I've seen many more, use every other ideal, vision, culture, religion, government, organization, social construct, etc, etc, etc... for influential purposes. Is that a good thing? No. Does it mean you just abandon it? No.
If the Bible said hell was a lake of marshmellows people would believe it just because it was in the Bible. That is the feeling im getting.
That is a very narrowminded and insulting view of believers.
Now if the Pope one day came and said GOD spoke to me, if god spoke to anyone i would think the 'holiest' person would qualify, and he officially made changes to the Bible..would you accept these changes?
Back to my first statement. If he was actually inspired by God, then anything he attemted to change, would still in no way, alter the true message. If his changes in anyway try to alter the message then it would be obvious to believers that he was not inspired by God.
Funny thing is, there's a little story near the back of the Bible that states that this exact scenerio will come to pass, and that it won't be the inspiration of God. So those two truths combined, I would say be very weary of any Pope who wants to change the bible.
I am not saying the Bible isn't useful. When interpreted properly and used it has great value (family values, morals, compassion, forgiveness) ;although used for nonsense and negativity such as implying homosexuality is a sin (doesn't god have limitless love for everyone? how can there be any exceptions then).. is a huge downside along with the countless wars and deaths that have occurred of people trying to instill Christianity in other cultures.. (like any other religion..) ok im rambling...
Yeah, you have at least 3 separate and entire threads here.
Are you going to make the argument that God spoke these words to the apostles, prophets and others?
Yes.
How come God hasnt spoken to anyone lately. (Oh thats right.. he speaks to your prez) .. kidding aside. Now im sure a bunch of you are gonna jump at me and say God speaks to me when i listen and when i prayer and such and such.. how do you differ from God and your conscience.. mind.. spirit?
God will always tell you to look to His Word. The conscience will always tell you that there's nothing in the Word and that you don't need to look there for answers.
you would think after a couple of thousand years, people moving forward in science, politics, lifestyle change, philosiphies.. you would think the Bible would go through changes along with man. Rather than sticking to ancient text that was written in a different age.
The truth never changes.
Shouldn't the bible evolve as well to encompass all what we know now, rather than what was known then?
There is evolution in the Story, that is the Bible. The evolution of what has, is, and will come to pass.
What is it that we know now that we didn't now then, and I'm not refering to advances in medicine, science, and technology?
We may have more knowledge, but the actuall capacity for intelligence has not changed much. We are no greater thinkers, philosophers, or problem solvers now, then we were 100's, 1000's, even 10's of thousands, of years ago. | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 8:02:57 PM | | The Bible is the history of a people, the story of faith and of the Word they received. History does not evolve. Our faith and our understanding can evolve. You don't change the text to match what you want to believe. Yes, the Bible was written in a different age but that does not negate faith for today. To me I hear questions that show ignorance of the subject at hand, arguments formed on lack of knowledge. If you seek knowledge of the Word you must seek with an open mind and heart. If you look to find support for a negative view you will always find that which will support it. Likewise, if you seek honestly for answers in faith, you will find this as well. We live in a time in which we demand that changes be made in all things to match what we want. That is the reality of this time, but it is not a reality of ALL time. We create great falsehoods around us at all times, and deny much of reality because it does not make us comfortable. The Bible promises us that we will NOT be comfortable. It challenges us to live by higher standards than those we develop ourselves, while recognizing that we will always fall short of perfection. It then goes on to explain how we are saved from our imperfections through God's Grace. It is a confusing epistle, but through faith we hang on to the Word knowing that in time, all will be made clear. | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 8:39:35 PM |
When interpreted properly and used it has great value
The worlds greatest problem is the fact that any religious document has been interpreted.
shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?
No. If you actually look at the literal Bible the way it is, it is a history of the world at about 6,000 years old. There is only one reason we think the earth is millions of years old. Darwin. How many books are there in the Bible? How many testimonies of people? Yet, we look to one man, Darwin, to show us how wrong the Bible is?
Let's look at this scientifically. They (the non-believers) claim that the earth is millions of years old. The various layers of the earth prove that. Sediment builds up over millions of years. One layer of sediment takes hundreds of thousands of years to develop. Now, let's look at the things found throughout these layers. Petrified forests are a prime example of things. Fossilzed trees. A great number of these trees are standing straight up.
But wait, it takes millions of years to make a single layer of sediment, right? Some of these trees are 60 and 70 feet tall! There isn't any more wear on the tree as you see it from top to bottom. That tells me that the tree was buried instantly and completely. Yet, psudeo-science has taught you that the earth took millions of years to build up the layers of sediment.
One of the most famous of these layers is the Austin layer. It is white in color. It was first discovered in Austin, TX. However, the same sedimentary layer is found in Austrailia, China, Europe and South America. What on earth could that mean? It is the same chemical makeup and everything. You couldn't tell the difference between the stuff in Canada and Panama. Its the same. That layer is found near the bottom of these petrified trees.
So, if the great flood really did happen exactly as the Bible put it, I guess sediment could have built up all over the earth! And built up pretty quick, I must say. That much water rushing around, it would move great amounts of sediment and that would settle as the waters receded. The heavier sediment would be lower already so it would hit bottom first, then the other layers would build on top of that.
Hmm.. Maybe the petrified forest did get buried really quickly. That would explain how all the wood is in such well preserved condition.
Folks, the Bible is a history book. If you read it and take it literally, you can use today's science and prove each piece.
You know, they say that stars will burn for millions of years before they burn out. They form randomly. They have never seen any stars formed, but they know this for fact. But, they have seen hundreds and thousands of these "burn out" Think that might be because they are only like 6,000 years old?
I am not a Bible toting person. I don't stand on the street corner preaching "the end is near" but I do have a solid belief system. I am also a scientist. This stuff is not hard to prove. Sorry to say it, but Darwin was wrong. He does know that now. Everyone will find out, sooner or later. | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/29/2007 9:15:16 PM |
We may have more knowledge, but the actuall capacity for intelligence has not changed much.
Perhaps not, but those who are intelligent and brave enough to think outside the box are no longer executed for heresy or burned at a stake ;)
We are no greater thinkers, philosophers, or problem solvers now, then we were 100's, 1000's, even 10's of thousands, of years ago.
possibly... but these men and women are now able, without fear of reprisal, to share their thoughts and to make contributions to the paradigms affecting us all.. and I for one am glad!!! | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 7:15:51 AM | | I would argue your point that people can be without fear of reprisal. Faith and spirituality of all types is the greates reason for reprisal throughout the world today. There is very little true religious freedom throughout the world. People are still slaughtered and killed for their faith-- look at the Middle East where different sects of Muslims are killing each other, Isreal continues to be at war for primarily religious reasons. Even here in the US where we talk about religious freedom we find that it is difficult to speak out about our faith without someone doing what they can to prevent it. Christians continue to be killed the world over for their faith. This is not an age and time of freedom for the faithful. Perhaps it is less common for the government to be the backing for religious persecution and executions, but these things do still exist. People are tortured and killed around the world in even greater numbers than ever before--all in the name of faith. | |
|
| |
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 8:05:06 AM |
We may have more knowledge, but the actuall capacity for intelligence has not changed much.
Perhaps not, but those who are intelligent and brave enough to think outside the box are no longer executed for heresy or burned at a stake ;)
This is a very western view of the world. There are still many places where speaking out at all, is still grounds for execution, and if nothing else sevre persecution. It was those people who had an understanding of God and believed in His existance that built the foundation for a system of government which would allow the abolishment of such persecution. Another reason why we should trust in God.
possibly... but these men and women are now able, without fear of reprisal, to share their thoughts and to make contributions to the paradigms affecting us all.. and I for one am glad!!!
Once again, this belief that people can be free to share their thoughts without reprisal, is based in western ideals, which have a foundation in the belief of God.
We are no greater thinkers, philosophers, or problem solvers now, then we were 100's, 1000's, even 10's of thousands, of years ago.
Speak for yourself... there have been many great philosophers in the last couple of hundred years... none better than Mark Twain IMO, who could outshine most of the ancients
I do agree with your statement about Twain, but I am not speaking for myself in reference to the point I was making. Scientists have shown that the capacity for human intellect has not changed much over the years. That in the big picture the capacity for intellegence is the same as it ever was. There is no new enlightenment to God, and the Bible teaches to be weary of those who make such claims, because the truth is the truth and will always be the truth. | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 8:13:41 AM |
There is no new enlightenment to God, and the Bible teaches to be weary of those who make such claims, because the truth is the truth and will always be the truth.
This is purely opinion of course?
Please do not try to tell people their enlightenment of God is false.
By proclaiming, "There is no new enlightenment" they/we/I have our own thoughts on this and you have no business denying that truth. :) | |
|
| |
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 10:52:32 AM |
We may have more knowledge, but the actuall capacity for intelligence has not changed much.
***Perhaps not, but those who are intelligent and brave enough to think outside the box are no longer executed for heresy or burned at a stake ;)
-->This is a very western view of the world. There are still many places where speaking out at all, is still grounds for execution, and if nothing else sevre persecution. It was those people who had an understanding of God and believed in His existance that built the foundation for a system of government which would allow the abolishment of such persecution. Another reason why we should trust in God.
I have never been accused of having a lopsided western view of the world, as I am very eclectic in my beliefs, but that is true... there are people still being slaughtered for speaking out regarding their version of truth, and ironically it is also usually in the name of the God ;)
What government abolishes this persecution? The UN?
Once again, this belief that people can be free to share their thoughts without reprisal, is based in western ideals, which have a foundation in the belief of God.
Pluralism isn't inherently western, though it does exist in more modernized areas...
There is no new enlightenment to God, and the Bible teaches to be weary of those who make such claims, because the truth is the truth and will always be the truth.
There is no new enlightenment to God? I think not. Regarding God and that which CANNOT BE PROVEN, spiritual truth becomes subjective to each of us and really and truly CANNOT be judged..
Is a relationship with God determined by reading the bible? Or in experiencing God for ourselves?
Each of us believes (or doesn't believe) in God uniquely, thus we each have (or don't have) our own relationship with God which determines our own truth regarding God and the nature of the universe...
As for the bible evolving with the world, well I guess those who wish for an ideology that does not stagnate will have to have the courage to either find or make their own.. I know my choice! | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 11:26:31 AM |
There is no new enlightenment to God, and the Bible teaches to be weary of those who make such claims, because the truth is the truth and will always be the truth.
To the best of my knowledge no one shares absolutely my version of God... However I have learned things about other ways that are very similar... And I just learned about them recently....
Any new way of looking at God is a new enlightenment to God... If God is all things or everywhere or "omnipossible" (Did I make that word up?) that would mean that everyone's take on God is partially right because everyone is partially God...
Know thyself | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 12:20:02 PM | ^^ That was beautiful :)
thecommonloon: Yes, there are people being slaughtered all over the world in the name of someone's God, but there are also a great many thinkers, philosophers and scientists who are making incredible additions to the paradigms affecting us all today... that could not have happened hundreds of years ago because of the monopoly of the church...
There IS no more monopoly.. hence the wars ;)
Too bad we cannot all come together and realize that regardless of color, religion or any other differences, we are all one.... inherently interconnected..
Forever the optimist, I see the world as evolving and progressing toward a greater unity.. but just like raising unruly children who think they know.. sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.. JMO ;) | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 1:45:05 PM | hey sassy,
Forever the optimist, I see the world as evolving and progressing toward a greater unity.. but just like raising unruly children who think they know.. sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.. JMO ;)
there's the kicker... I think there will be an ultimate outpouring of peace and goodwill on earth myself. but I don't believe there can be any good coming from man alone. the problem isn't because I believe in NT scripture but because I see clearly the inherent evil within myself. I know that behind almost every good deed is a tinsy winsy bit of vice that will eventually find it's way out.
i believe with all my heart that there is only one way for human motives to be purified and that there is only one purifying agent.
unfortunately that purifying agent has been falsely accused still to this day. In my believing Jesus I stand condemned as one who stands agains world unity and order. Though in truth I am not.
Yes, I say! Yes! Evolve and bring the salvation of mankind from mankind to the floor! It will happen it must happen but can man unaided by his true maker pull it off without falling claim to the communal evil that seems to lurk somewhere beneath the covers right there along side the communal good? | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 2:49:59 PM |
there's the kicker... I think there will be an ultimate outpouring of peace and goodwill on earth myself. but I don't believe there can be any good coming from man alone. the problem isn't because I believe in NT scripture but because I see clearly the inherent evil within myself. I know that behind almost every good deed is a tinsy winsy bit of vice that will eventually find it's way out.
I know you were asking Sassy, so please forgive me but I think that seeing what you believe is inherant evil in yourself is a good thing in that you can accept it and love yourself despite it... I believe in order to truely have compassion you must truely love yourself first... I don't think you like me much Statueman, but I think your heart's in the right place...
This is the good I see coming from humankind right now, and I think together, we will have a day where no one has the need for fear from each other or their percieved masters... | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 3:11:07 PM | Well the part of me that was raised/programmed as a christian just went wtf are thinking? lol holy crud... if you look at it in that aspect the apostles of that day do not exist today (or are not recognized as such) so there would be no changing it. If there was allowances I do think that would just blow the water out from under all man made religions today...they wont allow that to happen IMO
BUT...I'm no christian lol and I agree with this post here totally!
How come God hasnt spoken to anyone lately.
~And what if "he" has? That person would most likely be seen as a charlatan or as suffering from schizophrenia... but it was okay back then to hear voices from burning bushes.. ?
Should'nt the bible evolve as well to encompass all what we know now, rather than what was known then?
~You have touched upon the exact reason that I am spiritual vs religious.. religions do not seem to allow for or encourage evolution of ideology..
Excellent post :)
Today anybody that says they have heard the word of God or any Divine is discredited or looked up in a negative light because it goes against the Bible unless you are a Minister and even nowadays some Ministers (bishops, etc) are not really recognized because they are women. So it really is all in the eye of he beholder and what religion you choose to follow. I am spiritual and religious but mine is by no means a formally recognized one. But it works for me :)
Good post btw... | |
|
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 3:23:05 PM | Any new way of looking at God is a new enlightenment to God... If God is all things or everywhere or "omnipossible" (Did I make that word up?) that would mean that everyone's take on God is partially right because everyone is partially God...
Stoney...I agree here totally. I love that word btw. I am going to write that down. :) If we look within ourselves we will all find that we all can find the peace and harmony to not only talk to God/a Divine Being (whichever works for you) and let it be a part of you...what a more enlightening experience to know that you can walk side by side, hand in hand, heart in heart, soul in soul, with that?
Too bad we cannot all come together and realize that regardless of color, religion or any other differences, we are all one.... inherently interconnected..
And this is ssad too...until we stop fighting and condeming and judging others for our differences ther will always be wars, hate and discontent... we may have separate races etc but we are all one species on one earth...  | |
|
| |
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 5:05:34 PM |
I am having trouble understanding what you want the Bible to evolve to?
perhaps he would like it more harmonious (get rid of the contradictions) and change passages that make claims about the world and universe that we now know to be untrue.
and maybe a disclaimer like "a literal reading of this book leaves you missing the meaning behind the stories - so don't do that"  | |
|
| |
| |
| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 6/30/2007 7:47:26 PM | of course the bible is useful...where else would we put our hand when we testify in court
In the air When I testified at the trial for my divorce we did not use a bible at all, and acutally I think most states are going to doing that. A lot of people will not "swear" on a bible. I know I will not. I find it kind of distastful (and not because I am not a christian...I think it is disrespectful) no matter what the content is, whether it has been updated or not. :) | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
