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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!      Mod Threads Home login  
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 Author Thread: The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
 jhagemeier

Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 1
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/11/2007 9:28:54 PM
Tonight I was watching the News, here in Colorado, and there is a woman that is "silently protesting the war in Iraq" by hanging the American flag upside down. She is claiming that it's her freedom of speech. Her and her lawyer are ready to take this to the Supreme Court if need be. How do you all feel. I have very strong feelings about this, but I wanna know what you all think!
 MrBad_Kitty

Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 2
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/11/2007 9:49:14 PM
Freedom of Speech -- though im glad they didnt burn it. though i thought if it was an emergency they hang it upside down
 jhagemeier

Joined: 6/18/2007
Msg: 3
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/11/2007 10:01:33 PM
Here's my big deal with it. I feel that it's disrespectful to those who have fought and died for our country. It's OUR flag and we've fought for everything it stands for. I have a lot of friends and some family members fighting in Iraq for it right now. It's controversial and it's getting attention and her "protest" is being heard now but seriously...isn't there another way?
 leanlife

Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 4
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/11/2007 11:29:09 PM
I think that when you reach a point where you do things like that it signifies that you are unwilling to work with the country in order to make your views heard. Meaning, time to cut and run as there is, according to your action with the flag, nothing redeemable about the country.

There should be a motion put forth in your country as well as our own where when a flag is desecrated, the person doing it gives up all benefits of being a member of that country. It's freedom of speech to be sure without actually speaking. What is being said is declaring that you no longer wish to be a member of that country.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 5
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 12:22:18 AM
I think that when you reach a point where you do things like that it signifies that you are unwilling to work with the country in order to make your views heard. Meaning, time to cut and run as there is, according to your action with the flag, nothing redeemable about the country.

Dude, the upside-down flag is an international symbol of distress. Used in this manner it has nothing to do with "cut and run" (god, how I love the over-the-top hyperbole of the Iraq war supporters!), its a symbol of the distress felt by, well, pretty close to a majority of Americans these days over the issue.
 Trailsman5

Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 6
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 12:49:28 AM
Although hanging a flag upside down is technically the same as sending up a rescue flare... it does serve as a metaphor that the country is in trouble and is less intrusive than a sign that says "STOP THE BULLSH!T".

However, for democracies to work, dissenting voices need to be heard. If you want everyone to spark debate by joining a PAC, then you would have to outlaw political cartoonists, or journalists who give more facts that just what comes out of Tony Snow's mouth. Not to mention the occasional peaceful protesters. Its not for you to determine what is acceptable use of irony.

Just because conformity with your peer group got you through high school doesn't mean it works in the adult world. Not when it comes to finding real solutions to real problems.

Hanging a flag upside down was supposed to incite the emotions and draw attention. Now that you've dedicated an entire thread to it seen by people from around the world, I guess she can say "Mission Accomplished".
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 7
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 1:16:41 AM
Agree 100% with the last post.

I am suddenly reminded of a lyric by Neil Peart of the band Rush...

Better the pride that survives, in a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides, when a colourful rag is unfurled


Anyone who believes in "My country" or "My president right or wrong" might want to look up the definition of the term "jingoism"...

Here's a couple for the lazy:

http://www.cuyamaca.edu/bruce.thompson/fallacies/jingoism.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Apparently the woman in Colorado you speak of is not alone...others are hanging the flag in the international sign of distress...and it's bringing out all the jingoistic fervor in their neighbours...to the point of death threats, lost business and bigotry.



Dale Klyn raises beef cows in Corydon, Iowa.

For the past six years, he has been flying an American flag on his property.

But since May 21, that flag has been upside down.

He gives two reasons.

First, he’s angry at a judge for allowing a debtor of his to declare bankruptcy. The debtor, who had bought a business from Klyn on a contract and still owed him $282,000, now only has to “pay me six cents on the dollar,” says Klyn. “The judge approved that on the 18th of May. I was pretty upset about that.”

Second, he wants to show solidarity for Terri Jones.

She’s the Iowa mom who has been flying her flag upside down after her son returned from the Iraq War and committed suicide. (Klyn had never met her before.)

“When I got the Des Moines Register and read the article about Terri Jones and how her son didn’t get the medical attention he needed, I decided I’m going to support her and oppose what the judge had done and fly my flag upside down,” he says.

It got a reaction.

“I went to the local Case equipment dealer and bought some parts, and the salesman come out and he asked me why I was flying the flag upside down,” Klyn says. “So I explained it to him.”

But the salesman wasn’t sold, telling Klyn, “I’ve lost all respect for you. I’ll buy you a one-way ticket anywhere you want to go out of the country,” Klyn recalls.

Klyn says his postal worker also remarked on it.

“The mail carrier left me a personal note,” he says.

A local TV news reporter then came out and did a story on him.

“The next thing I knew I’d been charged with disorderly conduct,” he says. “I was surprised. I have the right and the freedom to do that.”

On July 6, Klyn, represented by the Iowa ACLU, met with a magistrate.

“I pled not guilty,” Klyn says. “No trial date has been set.” Terri Jones, by the way, went to court that day to support him.

“She came to my hearing," he says. “It was very kind of her.”

Alan Wilson, the county attorney who is prosecuting the case, did not return three phone messages for comment.

But Klyn’s troubles go beyond this court case.

He faces death threats from a forum on a Marine vets’ website, www.leatherneck.com, which calls itself the “Marine Corps Community for USMC Veterans.”

That forum contained the following remarks from four different Marines:

“Any scout snipers live in Corydon, Iowa???”

“Corn hole ’m.”

“Fly him under it upside down.”

“If the flag is flying upside down, it means he is in trouble, right? I think we Marines should show up and get him ‘out’ of trouble.”

Says Klyn: “I view it as a threat.”


From http://www.progressive.org/mag_mc071906

Another article on "flying the flag" at Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2006/07/flying_the_flag.html

A link to the original story can be found here for now

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_192082758.html
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13657361/detail.html
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=73545
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 8
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 2:45:43 AM
As others have posted it is the international sign for "distress",it is there right to do this,as it is your right to disagree with it,thats democracy.And while I dont care for it what pisses me off is the flag burners,but 'SIGH"That is there right.
 mystymorn

Joined: 2/12/2007
Msg: 9
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 5:32:53 AM
Did we not do this with the Vietnam War????....Yes, I feel for all our men/women that have been in all the wars, and I thank God that my son has such flat feet and ADHD that he would not be allowed in the Marines(which he so badly wanted)..I respect our flag but we do have to try what ever we can to let our voices, views be heard.......as with alot of men that come back from our wars do not get the attention(medically or verbally) that they should...let them speak out and be heard period!!!!....sorry my opinion.......and all those leathernecks, well I have seen and been around some that went thru alot of bad crap in the wars and they came back not right, I betcha they have words about that!!!!
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 10
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 6:18:15 AM
the u.s. has laws about how to properly display the flag. if you choose to break the law, any law, then there is punishment. if someone doesn't like something about america and want to demonstrate by disrespecting our symbols, would it be o.k. to shoot a bald eagle? same difference.
 Trailsman5

Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 11
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 6:50:08 AM
"would it be o.k. to shoot a bald eagle? same difference"

Are you insane? Killing an endangered species is the moral equivalent of flying the flag upside down?

You sir have a severe disconnect with reality. No wonder you talk like a Neocon.
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 12
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:06:35 AM
laws are laws, lefty! breaking a law to prove a point is wrong. that was my point. it isn't a question of morality. it isn't the moral equivalent, it is the legal equivalent. there are so many legal way to get ones point of view across. why do some feel it is their right to break laws and call it freedom of speech. if it wasn't for neocons then who would be here to keep the left wing radicals like yourself in check?
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 13
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:23:17 AM
I suggest you read up on the current laws.
 Trewq36

Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 14
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:44:19 AM
and I suggest that some of you should read some Thoreau....



Civil Disobedience is an essay by Henry David Thoreau that was first published in 1849. It argues that people should not permit governments to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that people have a duty to avoid allowing such acquiescence to enable the government to make them the agents of injustice. Thoreau was motivated in part by his disgust with slavery and the Mexican-American War.


You can not have a democracy with out dissenting voices, If you hang them all or ship them out, it is not really a democracy any more is it?

You may disagree with whatthey say, but You should always defend their right to say it.
 Wolves-Lower

Joined: 9/9/2006
Msg: 15
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:44:53 AM

Killing an endangered species is the moral equivalent of flying the flag upside down?


Actually the Bald Eagle is no longer endangered. It is protected.

Although it is not something I would do, becuause I personally feel we take this country and its rights for granted, it is freedom of speech of sorts.
I also think we have a little more important issues on our plate other then flag dis-respect.
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 16
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:47:02 AM
Pah how can anybody claim that no speech is being made when people here are talking about it so much.

It's her freaking right to do this, you don't have to agree with it, but you have to suck it up.

Also rights trump laws. Thats the entire point of a fucking constitution.
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 17
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 7:56:03 AM
To leanlife read the us flag code according to your thinking,I guess all sports teams get kicked out of the U.S. right?
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 18
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:07:41 AM
TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG Sec. 8. Respect for flag No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor. (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 19
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:11:13 AM
You left out it is legal to burn the us flag by a senate vote.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 20
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:11:35 AM

The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.


With this President in office, it makes perfect sense to me.

It's a sad day in America when turning the country upside down gets less reaction from Americans than turning the flag upside down does.
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 21
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:15:17 AM
that would be another thread/topic would it not?
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 22
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:16:58 AM
And as I stated before I dont like it but that is a democracy,deporting people for flying flags upside down or burning them?Welcome to the fourth riech!
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 23
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:20:40 AM
Flag Desecration Amendment (1990, 1995, 1997, 1999-2000, 2001, 2003, 2005-2006): Congress has made seven attempts to overrule the U.S. Supreme Court by passing a constitutional amendment making an exception to the First Amendment in order to allow the government to ban flag desecration. In 1990, when the amendment was first brought up, it failed to achieve the necessary two-thirds majority in the House. After the Republican congressional takeover of 1994, it has consistently passed the House but failed in the Senate
 Trewq36

Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 24
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:35:51 AM
For our American friends, in Canada, Burning is the recommended method to dispose of a flag....


unusable flags should be destroyed. Do not put the flag in the garbage. Instead, it should be burned in private without spectators making sure that all of the fabric is completely burned.
 Wolfie65

Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 25
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:49:40 AM
Ahem....
Hanging a flag upside down is not quite so 'international', it can't be, as there are quite a number of countries whose flag looks the same upside down as right side up....
It is, however, an American distress signal, and as such HUGELY overused by just any bozo who feel like someone pi$$ed in their cornflakes.

As an aside, I personally don't quite get the obsession with burning/not burning a flag, having to destroy it if it touches the ground, etc.
As far as I'm concerned, a flag actually gains value if it has some holes in it, got dirty, maybe shredded, as long as it flies in the end......
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