|
|
|
|
|
| | Accountability Page 1 of 4 (1, 2, 3, 4) | Is it just me these days or does it seem like no one has any accountability anymore .
Is it just that much easier to make excuses than to keep your word ? I realize we live in a very lazy society but when did it get to be this bad ? you can make excuses about everything ?
I didn't show up because I had to feed my cat .......
I missed the show cause my friend didn't call me .......
etc.
There are so many facets to it and the main one is fear . Women being the worst for that one. a simple meet can be a nightmare for a shy woman. fear is the biggest restriction in all of our lives . If you were absolutely fearless you would own the world . I'm close :P
If a person really wants to do something they will be making excuses to everyone else to be there and keep that promise ..........no ?
When have we become so cowardly ?
When did we lose the dignity ?
When did we get to the point where people don't matter any more?
I understand ego pretty well I'm a (Rock singer/shred guitar guy/business owner/so I'm not common) but I don't even do these things .
Maybe that's the thing maybe it takes a "lot" of exposure to being in demand before you finally decide that people and your word are still important ?
My father always told me "You are only a good as your word" so If I say it I do it , even if I made a mistake by saying it! it commits me. | |
|
Ron9
| | Joined: 8/10/2004
Msg: 2 | |
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 2:18:32 PM | The two biggest motivators are
- trying to avoid pain (fear would fall here)
- trying to gain pleasure
I have not dated much after being married most of my life - so ... I am not sure why people don’t follow thru with plans.
I am starting to blame ***EVERYTHING*** on the concept of equality (which is fine) going overboard and crashing into “independent women” ......... umm babble/mindsets.
- My female dog has flees because of “independent women”
- It is hot and the humidity is high because of “independent women”
- My grass needs to be cut because of “independent woman”
- I don’t get no lubbin because of “independent woman”
- My new little male kitten bites me and scratches me because is his pizzed off (or will be) by “independent women” | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 2:33:45 PM | This doesn't necessarily have to be about relationships but it would be a large factor in why things don't work out for many.
What made me think of this is that I had a gig last night at this local beach community bar and although it was fun and many of our regular friends came out but none of the POF people that said "they would come out" came out ? It's like the reason they are here is because they all just have no integrity . If you say you are doing something you commit yourself to it or you are a blatant liar. I imagine it was better without them. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 2:37:18 PM | I have a theory about this, and it's based on a conversation I had with a friend about serial monogamy and abandonment:
In the epidemic absence of any real property in our culture and the shrinking right to protect it should we have any, our morality has become very flexible. This absence can be proved by the fact that most of you probably don't even know what I'm talking about and those that do probably believe they have some when in fact they don't, the banking industry is their feudal master.
If one owns real property, and I do mean own, the considerations for making decisions about domicile are very different. No longer are we driven by what we can emotionally cope with. Because we have traded the power to feed ourselves for our desire to look like the rich man, handing our real property back to the feudal master is no big deal. It was never ours to begin with. We lived within the pleasant illusion that our home and our children made us wealthy, when in fact, they made us slaves, and so we abandon them when the going gets a little tough.
This creates a moral dissonance between those that own real property and those that don't. If one doesn't have the power to feed oneself but lives instead by barter and sharecropping, the urge to control the environment narrows down to the people in it. When those people refuse to be controlled we wake up and realize we are nomads with nothing and wander away.
The moral disconnect that is often argued is based on those who know all they own is their ability to cope and if they cannot cope they move on and those who operate from the mindset of real property and allow that to be the major consideration in their decision making.
While some people argue that monogamy is the more traditional (moral) choice in fact historically it is those who consider their real property and the inheritance (power to feed themselves and their own offspring) of their children above their own comfort level who were the moral (power) base of society.
Lifetime monogamy rarely exists. What is often argued is serial monogamy vs. a long term arrangement that insures the survival of the young. It is serial monogamy that is the new and nontraditional concept, not the open arrangement between two adults in business together and it is based on hedonism being the only possession of most of the people in our society. If it feels good emotionally it is right, if it feels bad it is wrong. We see it all the time in threads here on POF. Your relationship is supposed to make you happy. This is a new concept, not a traditional one. In the past, your relationship was supposed to secure your real property for your children so they could feed themselves.
Those who practice serial monogamy are simply solitary nomads for they have nothing to lose except their own pleasure.
It is a new morality, and yet in many ways an old one.
During this conversation my friend mentioned the ideas of Celia Green but in the absence of territory in the form of real property, all we defend in a territorial mindset is our perceived right to pleasure and leisure, again, seeking to pose as the rich man rather than actually being one. If one feels good when one's mate is sexually true and the only thing we really own in our society is our happiness, as set up very cleverly in our Constitutions, when we no longer feel good we really have nothing to abandon except our discomfort. We do that as an individual, not as a tribe. When your wife or husband no longer makes you feel good there is nothing to lose by walking away and seeking another who actually will make you feel good. There was nothing to give to the children anyway, except maybe lessons in how to establish credit so they too can feel like a rich man and the henchman, I mean a loan officer, at the bank can teach them that. As solitary nomads we have no obligation to our property, we have none, and no obligation to our children since we have nothing to give them except lessons in how to abandon our responsibilities in the name of the pursuit of happiness.
The morality of "what I do within the boundaries of my territory is my business" is moot if we have no real property, for without it we have no territory to bother adapting our discomfort to. The morality of "what I do effects the entire tribe" is moot if there is no tribe.
We have become solitary nomads and our moral code is do what feels good. If our partner hurts our feelings, we walk.
This may explain the loud opposition to infidelity voiced by so many people. They may perceive that their only properties are their relationships and the feelings they evoke whereas those who place the value of their real property and the inheritance of their children above their own personal happiness are more willing to tolerate what does not feel good now for what might be a more successful strategy for the survival of their DNA in the future.
Anyway, just some ideas I had. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 3:25:16 PM | | I certainly understand the Jabber in your name ! wow ? I'm not quite sure how ownership of any type ties in with the simple decencies we should expect from someone who makes a verbal commitment ? I will read it again . | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:00:05 PM | I agree with Juggernaut. I do not see how real property ties in. If nothing else the people who have real property have real payments that are not payable whenever the nomad gets around to it. If by this we are slaves then so be it, but I assure you when I go to the garden and pick the things I could share crop or just give them away I am aware of the integrity of the people I share them with.
I do not understand how people cant be so flexible with their word. The only thing we have worth value to others in this life is our word. The sharecropper or nomad has little else either. Give your neighbour a vegetable upon the premise that he gives you one. Don't provide the vegetable and see how long you continue to get them. Our word is nothing more or less than what actions make it worth.
Regardless of who I may be my time is as valuable as any other human no matter and that is how I treat people.
You will only get what you give.
Jennivieve | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:06:14 PM | | It is a matter of culture. Some people will keep their word, and as a result they promise less to less than those who promise more to more and use excuses et al as a cop out. In the dynamics of the era, the latter are better rewarded. See for example men who promise women LTR and then cop out later. Where others say "Friends" or "Dating" and may "deliver" more, but they will rather undersell and oversell. The oversellers are on top, though. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:27:47 PM |
I certainly understand the Jabber in your name!
Oh, that's nothing! 
You should hear me go on about some of my other ideas. They are not very popular either but they sure are fun to think about.
I'm not quite sure how ownership of any type ties in with the simple decencies we should expect from someone who makes a verbal commitment?
That's because I was talking about commitment and accountability between partners and not just the "simple decencies" you apparently were talking about.
Sorry about that! I didn't realize your question was that narrow.
In any case, I'll try to give an example of what I meant in my previous post:
I have two friends who just married each other recently, two months ago, to be exact. A few weeks ago she emailed me at 10am to tell me that she didn't have class that afternoon and would give me a ring so we could have a long talk about a question/issue I had asked her advice/help with. I arranged my day around those plans. She never called. That same night I was chatting with her husband. He was home alone. So I asked where she was...
"Oh, well she decided to stop by her parents and called me to tell me she was having dinner with them and would call when she was leaving. That was at five, now it's nine."
"So where is she?"
"I have no idea, probably out partying with her crazy cousin."
I wrote, "It must be nice to be so free."
He wrote back, "What do you mean?"
I thought about it for a while, and then, "Well, to have everything she has, a beautiful home, a brand new car all paid for, consistently available sex, no job, no kids, full time school, and to be able to eat with whomever she pleases, go out and party, and still expect all of it to be there upon her return."
But then, this is his third marriage and her fourth.
They do not seem unhappy with their batting averages, but not everyone decides to live their lives that way. Not everyone is that free. And therein for me lies the difference. She is free and so is he. I look at people like my parents and they are not free, not either of them. I know we argue on and on about the legality of freedom but frankly, at this point they can't afford to get divorced. They need each other's income and property and assets to continue to live in the lifestyle they have grown accustomed to and to retire in the liftestyle they have grown accustomed to. They share two children who need them to remain married and jointly supporting them and their heritage and they want to be able to enjoy their grandchildren together.
Neither of them is free to break their word. They gave each other everything they had and to break that bond and that commitment would leave them bereft. Not so my two friends. She has her gorgeous boob job, he his cool motorcycle, they can build another life in a flash should she decide to stay out partying with that cousin. They have nothing, really, to lose. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:34:29 PM | There are people who are responsible and accountable for their actions... but those people are generally in control of their own lives and not a mess in other aspects as well as accountablity. So maybe its just the people your meeting/ talking to/ know.
I have met people like that and as soon as I see what they are... I get them away from me ( boundries). If that fails, call the police if they won't stop coming around. People will be quick to figure out your not going to mess with low lifes or entertain them if you maintain good boundries till you figure out what a person is all about. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:35:09 PM | It's just the nature of this society at this time. I'm amazed that I could have worked 60 hours per week for seventeen years and yet I'm being shunted into job positions for guys fifteen years younger with half the motivation and knowledge.
Generation X lies.
Generation Y lies even more.
It's all about lying.
I'm competing against resumes that are largely lies.
So my own resume is automatically dialed down to 50% of its value, to compensate for the inflated resumes. Same way with women. I'm competing with men who lie, who borrow large sums of money to buy flashy houses and cars, so my value is automatically dialed down to "incapable of buying large house or cool car".
I've learned a few things about women in the past year.
#1) They believe things about themselves that just aren't true and if you heed their opinions, you end up in a confused, hurtful state because the results make no sense.
#2) They claim to want honesty. They do not. They want to be lied to.
#30 They claim to not care about money. They do. If you think they do not, if you cater to their claimed belief, you will probably fail. | |
|
Ron9
| | Joined: 8/10/2004
Msg: 11 | |
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:36:35 PM | Boy Jabberwocker - you look pretty cute. If you were about ..... twice as old and if you spoke English ...........
Just kidding lol. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:39:13 PM | THANK YOU for this thread. I have been wondering the same thing.
People want anything and everything but are not will ing to consider the consequences or be willing to face the consequensces- what ever they may be.
I used to do that a long time ago- till i realized it only left me in a rut and a downward spiral. There was no growth or advancement.
I had the example of someone I know who does this (blames everyone else but them selves and their choices),.. and they have pushed everyone away and alienated themselves. I decided I did NOT want to be like that.
I think there are a few factors that create an unstable base on which acountability CAN NOT stand.
Denial- as the saying goes :Denail is NOT Just a river in Egypt.
Convenience- easiest route out leaves too many loose ends- and they don't have to do too much to work dealing with ' it' and take care of an issue once and for all and be done with it? Temporary solutions just create more work/problems in the future.
fear and cowardice- (as you mentioned) Fear of the truth? fear of judgement? fear of having someone see behind the mask they portray to the world?
can you think of any others to add?
Q | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:39:27 PM | This whole "serial monogamy" concept intrigues me indeed, but myself, I just don't see it that way. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with choosing to give yourself "full time emotionally" once the deed is done, the boots are knocked and the baloney... erm.. ponied. It's just a lifestyle choice. One person's negligence of their own pleasure, is another person's extacy.
Let's face it, there are a variety of ways to have a sexual relationship... and I'm not talkin' just positions here, so wipe that lacivious grin off of your face. One person might indeed have tons o' fun doing the casual sex thing, where as another just doesn't feel good about themselves having relationships like that. One person might feel that another deserves the time and energy once the sexin' goes down, another feels that bumpin' is just for pleasure and fun. That's it. But neither is wrong, it's just what gives you, yourself joy and self worth which means a damn at the end of the day. God... sometimes I WISH I could just do the casual thing, but I like knowing people. REALLY knowing people to have sex. Man, such a turn on to be inside someone's head when in the act. Otherwise (and again, just speaking for MY emotional needs...) I might as well just have one off at the wrist.
Maybe the total amount of notches on the bedpost might vary between the two lifestyles, but it's all what you need to get out of it that has any kind of importance. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:46:18 PM |
"There are so many facets to it and the main one is fear . Women being the worst for that one. a simple meet can be a nightmare for a shy woman. fear is the biggest restriction in all of our lives . If you were absolutely fearless you would own the world . I'm close :P"
You know sometimes I find myself blaming men for the breakdown in communication. Then I catch myself and realize that blaming other people is just another way of not being accountable for my actions.
I don't understand this obsession with fearlessness. There is a healthy amount of fear, and then there is too much. Fearlessness is the antithesis of accountability. If you weren't afraid of how your actions affected others, you wouldn't be motivated to do the right thing. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 4:47:33 PM |
Some people will keep their word,
yep. I think there's still folks that their word is good enuff for me, and it's more than likely usually due to the fact that:
they promise less
Promise less and you'll be able to keep your promise and live up to your promises.
I never thought about accountability being a cultural thing, but you could be onto something there, but I wouldn't pretend to know about other cultures around the globe. I do know that accountability seems to be lost for the most part on this continent...from producers all the way to the consumers.
I like to work just on my word, and my competency, while most of my colleagues in the indusrty i am now in, require signatures up front before they agree to provide service. If my service isn't good enough I tell them they aren't obligated to work with me anymore and there's no contract to try and get out of. A lot of my colleagues think I'm crazy to operate this way, but, it's the way I like to operate.
Not signing them to a two-way services contract also allows me to turf them if they're not holding themselves accountable in regard to the services I render. So far in 4 years, I've only been stiffed once. However, a number of the colleagues that force signatures have been stiffed many many more times by clients in spite of being signed up and accountable. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 5:12:21 PM | I'm competing against resumes that are largely lies.
This seems to be true. From what I have heard, many companies in many countries now hire firms not to select (exec search firms) but firms which research/verify the facts candidates put in their CVs (degrees, work experience, etc). It has become THAT bad! I am glad they do! Time to weed out the weeds!
Central Banks worry about and try to curb inflation via interest rates etc. the "inflation" of facts and words and commitments who will try to curb? People, by having less fantastical expectations and being weary of grand words and promises! But tell that to those who advertise that they seek a "partner for life" and/or expect a "knight in shiny armour" and anything less is mot enough. They are the ones who foster a climate that promotes lies and overselling! IMO.
| |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 5:21:54 PM | | I can understnd where you're coming from. My parents taught me what an important thing it is to keep your promices mainly by keeping theirs. Because I've always strived to keep commitments, it allows me to make more meaningful impact on people. Until my wife came to the conclusion that we should separate, I kept all my promices to her. Despite it clearly being the best thing for both of us, it still proved to be one of the hardest choices I've ever had to make deciding to end our marriage. It should be painful when we break our word even if doing so is agreed to by the other party. The only reason I was able to create and run an online magazine for eight years was tha peoplecould trust that I'd be as good as my word. This was a free magazine so no money was involved. Despite that, I still pulled all-nighters if I had to in order to meet my self-imposed deadline for publication. I was rewarded in many ways for keeping my word. Not the least was being entrusted to help a gifted young blind lad learn about his computer technology. He's doing splendidly in school now and I'm glad I could be a part of that. The more trust-worthy you are, the more rich your life will be. I's that simple. A clean conscience is something I'm very glad to have these days. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 5:30:39 PM | I didn't realize your question was that narrow
Oh no you are welcome to expand it to any degree to wish but I sometime have aq hard time following your spiral ? You do realize you are spiralling right ? My bass player does that but he's bi-polar.
once again ..............
If you weren't afraid of how your actions affected others, you wouldn't be motivated to do the right thing.
there shouldnever be any fear involved in doing the right thing .the truth only hurts people who don'tor won't accept it.
while most of my colleagues in the indusrty i am now in, require signatures up front before they agree to provide service. If my service isn't good enough I tell them they aren't obligated to work with me anymore and there's no contract to try and get out of.
I too am a contractor i own Homeworks renovations out of windsor ontario canada and i know the value ofpaper but fromwhat I notice lately I may be one of the few guys out here that actually does what he says , somany people are getting robbed right now! | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 6:18:04 PM | My brain hurts.
I've always been a liar.
I used to lie to myself a lot less than I do now, but I've always, always been a liar both to myself and to others. I used to promise 2% more than I could deliver, and do it on a consistent basis, but people would still have faith in me because their alternative was to go with my competitors who would promise 20% more than they could deliver. Even with that 20% cream on top, I still managed to promise a lot more than my competitors promised.
In the epidemic absence of any real property in our culture and the shrinking right to protect it should we have any, our morality has become very flexible.
I'm trying to follow the bouncing red rubber ball here. Doesn't this theory rest on the assumption that things were once different than they are today?
I'm trying to find a time in history when real property ownership was more prevalent than today, and I'm having a difficult time of it. And it's not really about the debts incurred to own that property, it's that property never has been a "right" in any of the cultures I can think of, certainly not in the United States, where the Declaration of Independence was amended from promising "Life, Liberty, and Property" to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".
I have no numbers on what percentage of the population own their homes debt-free today, or what percentage of the population of other cultures throughout history has been that have owned property, but I'd wager a c note that they are both in the single digits. If anyone has info on that, I'd appreciate if you'd post it, just out of curiosity. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 6:21:39 PM | typical salesman!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the reason I have a hard time with my business . being honest and fair is acrutch now. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 6:27:14 PM |
typical salesman!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wish!
the reason I have a hard time with my business . being honest and fair is acrutch now.
I've never actually ran a business. I helped run one, but the promises I was talking about being 2% more than I consistently delivered were as an employee and student. I regularly set the high mark and skewed the bell curve for everyone else.
And like I said, my competition would promise 20% more than they could deliver and their promises were still smaller than my promises.
____________________
A response to Nick's below post vvvvvvv.
The more responsible one is, the less responsibility one assumes or is careful to assume. Like the Spartans, they deliver (win) or come back "dead" carried on their shields. No excuses. I read post 4 and while it is an interesting theory which if valid, could explain some of the dynamics of "accountability", I am sceptical about its validity.
In the over-regulated and bureaucratic systemics that exist in most western countries re business and life and relationships, etc, turning into a nomad seems a reasonable strategy. Capital is nomadic, products and jobs are nomadic (homeless, roaming, vagabond), well humans can cope with that by becoming nomadic too. But that does not mean that nomads are less accountable, simply that they are responsible and thus accountable for less. Makes sense, IMO.
I have a different theory I'd like to float, but this one is way out in left field, so take it with several grains of salt. Better yet, take it with the entire shaker.
My theory is this - there has always been a percentage of the population that sets the high-water mark for everyone else. Not necessarily nobility, but more often nobility than common-folk.
Either you belong to the class of nobility or you don't. Most of the complaints I see on here are things that make me think these people are , for lack of a better term, "peasants". All they can do is complain. It is out of their reach to affect their environment or the people around them. So they complain. About politics, life, dating, "all men", "all women", etc.
My father is the closest thing to a samurai I've ever met, when it comes to honor. I can't claim that same status. I can't even come close. I can and have outcompeted my peers, but they were all people I would classify as "peasants". They can't be helped.
Peasants use words like a schizophrenic uses words - as a flailing means of self-defense against the demons of the world. They are powerless words. Empty promises. When someone like my father gives his word, it means something. He weilds it like a sword. People want to do business with him because they know there's something solid behind that word. I'd put my father into the 2% crowd. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 6:38:29 PM | The more responsible one is, the less responsibility one assumes or is careful to assume. Like the Spartans, they deliver (win) or come back "dead" carried on their shields. No excuses. I read post 4 and while it is an interesting theory which if valid, could explain some of the dynamics of "accountability", I am sceptical about its validity.
In the over-regulated and bureaucratic systemics that exist in most western countries re business and life and relationships, etc, turning into a nomad seems a reasonable strategy. Capital is nomadic, products and jobs are nomadic (homeless, roaming, vagabond), well humans can cope with that by becoming nomadic too. But that does not mean that nomads are less accountable, simply that they are responsible and thus accountable for less. Makes sense, IMO. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 7:06:35 PM | wow this thread became very convoluted. To me its simple. People who have no empathy for other people's feelings have no accountability. Maybe it is to do with how you were brought up. My parents drummed it into me that you didn't let people down, you never promised something if you weren't absolutely sure you could follow through.
I think especially in the dating aspect that when you say you are going to meet someone, you only break it if some emergency happens. I have had guys make dates and cancelled dates the day before and a couple of hours before. I found that they never followed through on anything and were a total waste of time. A couple actually contacted me some months later with some weak excuse but I always knew that it was the whole "candy store" mentality and they had gotten sidetracked and then came back when they didn't work out. But its disrespectful. If you make a date....be there. Otherwise don't make a date. If your word means nothing then it reflects on everything you say. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 7:07:59 PM |
My father is the closest thing to a samurai I've ever met, when it comes to honor. I can't claim that same status. I can't even come close. I can and have outcompeted my peers, but they were all people I would classify as "peasants". They can't be helped.
Peasants use words like a schizophrenic uses words - as a flailing means of self-defense against the demons of the world. They are powerless words. Empty promises. When someone like my father gives his word, it means something. He weilds it like a sword. People want to do business with him because they know there's something solid behind that word. I'd put my father into the 2% crowd.
have you considered therapy ? perhaps if you actually learned something from your father you might be somewhere ? Your thought process is severely skewed. | |
|
| Accountability
Posted: 7/26/2007 7:17:33 PM |
have you considered therapy ?
Yes.
perhaps if you actually learned something from your father you might be somewhere ?
What makes you think I'm not (somewhere)?
Your thought process is severely skewed.
Feel free to offer me as much advice on it as you like. I'm always looking to learn.
To me its simple. People who have no empathy for other people's feelings have no accountability.
I haven't seen that to be the case. I've met people who have no empathy for other people's feelings, but have a tremendous sense of honor. Honor seems more likely to produce honesty and accountability than any amount of empathy, in my experience.
But its disrespectful. This gets to the heart of it, I think. There's two ways of looking at it. The first is empathy. If you don't care much about yourself, then all the empathy in the world won't help you care much about others because regardless of being able to put yourself in their shoes, you still don't care about yourself.
The second is honor. It's an end in itself. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
