| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 9:57:42 AM | So I'm watching CNN and they are talking about the Korean Christian Missionaries that are being held hostage in Afghanistan right now. The Taliban are holding 21 Christian Korean Missionaries Hostage, 2 they have killed already. Why are christian missionaries walking into such unstable places, where violence is known, death is known and ultimately they and their "mission" are not welcomed? It isn't just their lives in jeopardy, if they are taken hostage, NATO and soldiers have to come look for them putting their lives in further danger?
I think christian groups should be discouraged from dabbling in regions where their religious faith is not appreciated, and where others are required to risk their lives to save them when inevitably they are kidnapped, to be used as political bargaining chips.
What's worse is when these missionaries slap the same people that rescued their sorry asses, right in the face. In 2005, Canadian James Loney and four members of the Christian Peacemakers Team in Iraq were kidnapped and held as hostages by something calling itself the Swords Of Righteousness Brigade. Before being rescued by British SAS troops and Canadian JTF2 specialists, an American member of the CPT, Tom Fox, was murdered.
The gratitude of those rescued manifested itself in Loney refusing to wear a poppy on Remembrance Day, and refusing to testify against his suspect captors later held by the Americans. A similar response came from Norman Kember, a British CPT member who was rescued.
Are people like this Christian Martyrs, or are they just plain ignorant? | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 10:09:01 AM | "She deserved to be raped, she was in a biker bar and dressed like a slut!"
It's always wrong to blame the victim.
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 10:18:16 AM | "She deserved to be raped, she was in a biker bar and dressed like a slut!"
It's always wrong to blame the victim.
First, I actually didn't say they deserved it, now did I? But there is a thing called self responsibility though. I wouldn't go walking through Central Park at 3 am alone without knowing there is a chance I could be jumped, robbed, raped, beaten, etc. Now if a biker stood at the bar door and said "I'm going to rape you if you come in here", that would be another story. Sure...she wouldn't deserve to be raped, but she would have been warned ahead of time and decided to make her decision based on that.
If you are going to purposely place yourself in a situation where you know there is violence (foreign missionaries) I think it's wrong to expect people to risk their lives to get you out of the situation you yourself knew you may walk into. No one walks into a bar expecting to get raped, regardless of how they dress....but any idiot knows if you walk into a country like Iraq or Afghanistan and preach another religion, odds are you'll be beaten, raped, killed, etc. Hell they hold up large signs telling you just that. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 10:26:21 AM | Have those missionaries asked to be rescued? I guess even if they have, we wouldn't know about it. But regardless of if they have asked for help or not, it's the right thing to do to offer help.
They are still citizens of a sovereign nation. They were legally in a foreign country. They were illegally kidnapped for their religous beliefs. Two have been murdered for their religous beliefs. It seems like liberals should be up at arms to protect them missionaries liberty and right to freedom of speech and I think it's telling that they are not. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 11:29:21 AM | Q: What do you feed parana fish?
A: Goldfish.
Unfortunately the actions of a few have and do jeopardized the life and work of the many. I would hope that future missionaries think about those who will have to save their bacon. I for one think it’s beyond the pale and totally disrecpectful to armed forces and their families. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 1:49:55 PM | I can admire someone of faith going into a area of strife and poverty to help their fellow humans. Mother teresa might be one of the worlds finest examples of selfless love. This is the type of christian that I can admire. She does not preach down to the people she lifts them up. By living as she did in the poorest part of calcutta amoung the worse poverty and crime she was vary much at risk.
i also met some Quaker Missionaries in Viet Nam. they set up a small clinic and refused no one. As far as i know they were never molested by the NVA or the Viet Cong.
I have no idea what the christian missionary were doing in Afghanistan. Were they simply helping people in a war torn country? Were they putting others before themselves? Or were they on a mission to convert? Preaching down on the people. Did they understand that by preaching they did put themselves and others at risk? | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 2:04:37 PM | Well from my understanding....they are just doing what they beleive and they are following the ways of their faith, and doing quit well for willing to even risk death for their cause . There are many hostile places in the world that are against Christianity, so this is really nothing knew.
I do agree however, that I think sometimes there could be better timing on when to do this and when it may be alittle too dangerous to try to endeavour this. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 6:18:39 PM |
Why are christian missionaries walking into such unstable places, where violence is known, death is known and ultimately they and their "mission" are not welcomed? Why? Good question. Simple answer is most likely "to spread the good word" or something along the lines of "there are people there that are suffering" with the unspoken but understood assumption that what they're bringing them will help. I'll get into the deep answer here in a minute, but let's see what else we've got on our plate, eh?
It isn't just their lives in jeopardy, if they are taken hostage, NATO and soldiers have to come look for them putting their lives in further danger? I see the question mark, but I'm not sure of the question itself. It does make one wonder, though, whether missionaries, or any other ideologically based relief group takes such things into account when considering the danger to themselves. For my part, I'm not certain folks would, but I honestly don't know.
What's worse is when these missionaries slap the same people that rescued their sorry asses, right in the face. I've seen similar things happen, but I wouldn't claim to know or understand all the motivations behind them. Be interesting to see what happens if folks go in to rescue the Korean missionaries, though. As for Loney, I don't know what Remembrance Day is, or why it would be a sin not to wear a poppy, but I can see why they'd not testify, given that Stockholm syndrome isn't necessarily an all-or-nothing thing, you know?
Are people like this Christian Martyrs, or are they just plain ignorant? Simple answer, yes. Like I said, we'll get into the deeper stuff in a minute.
"She deserved to be raped, she was in a biker bar and dressed like a slut!"
It's always wrong to blame the victim. Not entirely sure I see the correlation, honestly. In a nation where rape is a crime, and folks have a reasonable expectation of personal safety, no, it's not a victim's fault if their dress, manner, or actions are misconstrued, and they are harmed because of it. However, in a nation where it is criminal to both be Christian and proselytise, a nation where corporal and capital punishment are practiced in regard to a wide variety of crimes and misdemeanors, one would have to expect a certain level of risk, yes? Certainly, it's understandable that, for purposes one believes are "good", one might attempt to subvert and disobey the laws, but understanding that one has a responsibility, that one is accountable for one's actions is a factor that must be taken into account. By this understanding, missionaries are not victims, they are criminals. And, the expected consequences are not victimisation.
Have those missionaries asked to be rescued? I guess even if they have, we wouldn't know about it. But regardless of if they have asked for help or not, it's the right thing to do to offer help. I entirely agree, myself. However, while it's arguable that that's the very mindset that got the folks into the situation, prudence might have been exercised in thinking ahead as to what might happen if they were caught.
All that aside (and skipping over the irrelevant stuff I'd like to comment on), the question was, why? Simply put, it's an acknowledgement and a dedication to missionary work, whether it be helping the needy or spreading the message, and the two are not mutually exclusive. The impulse, though, to disregard threats and danger, to take the risk of detainment or death for a cause is, psychologically, no different than strapping a bomb to oneself and blowing up a large portion of a city. It's all viewed as "doing God's work", in a sense. And, if one's own people -- in this case Christians as a group -- are better off for the individual's sacrifice, one who is dedicated to "something greater than oneself" may be willing to make that sacrifice.
There's something profoundly noble in it, even if the form it eventually takes -- missioning, revolution, what-have-you -- is shaped by self-centred tribalism or uneducated fear. The medium, in a way, is not the message, even if it's what others might hear.
Hence, the apparent disregard for the safety or well-being of any potential rescuers, in the event of a kidnapping or other oppressive violence. Folks just don't seem to focus on potential consequences, particularly when being so strongly influenced by the very message of hope they bring.
Picture it, you're smuggling much-needed supplies of food and medicine to a group of people that are starving and in danger of epidemic. You're doing a good thing, right? But, in order to do so, you have to break rules put in place by folks who, for whatever reasons, believe they're doing the right thing by denying such supplies. You know the risks, you know getting caught means detainment, possibly criminal charges, but the good work you're doing bolsters your spirits, yes? Effectively, this makes the risks less prominent, and the more negligible the risk, the less concern if the "unthinkable" should happen. Guess I'm just saying that, it seems to me, folks who are running the gauntlet for a good cause focus on the good they're doing, and might not necessarily consider the implications of failure.
It's good work; it's God's work, how can we not succeed? Kinda gig. Or -- and this is particularly prevalent in religiously motivated efforts -- the belief that "God will provide". If one is doing "God's work", of course one might feel one has a reasonable expectation that God will help that work along, protect those who are doing it, and sustain and possibly save them, should they be caught.
Anyway, I think that's mostly just my rambling thoughts on the issue. Either way, it'd be a bit more comforting if folks thought ahead to all possible scenarios, and I'm sure it's just my insistence on self-reliance, but expecting others to bail one out (if indeed that's the mindset at work) just doesn't wash. Dunno. Crappy sitch, but they got themselves into it, one way or another. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 8:18:56 PM | | This is interesting because I was thinking of starting a thread on Martyrs. Not confined to Christian martyrs but martyrs in general. The Muslims who flew airplanes into the WTC considered themselves martyrs. The Japanese kamikaze pilots were martyrs I suppose. Does one have to believe strongly enough in something to be a martyr or just be too stupid to think about it? | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/1/2007 10:28:18 PM | IMHO those who are "martyred" against their will are simply unfortunate.
Those who choose to "martyr" themselves because they believe they are doing the will of God(s) are deluded, egomaniacal, and if they choose to kill others on that belief, evil.
Is that because I don't believe in God. Not necessarily.
I don't believe men "hear God" in a literal sense...I certainly mistrust anyone who says he speaks for and/or knows the will of God - if God wants to talk, he/she/it can go it themselves without intermediary as far as I am concerned.
Is it because I discount evil and good gods? Not necessarily that either.
I just think that more often than not it is an all too handy thing to fire the blood of the second group...
The first group - just poor unfortunate sods...usually dieing at the hands of the second. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/2/2007 2:35:59 AM |
Does one have to believe strongly enough in something to be a martyr or just be too stupid to think about it?
Yes to both parts of your question. It's total lunacy... so I wouldn't think about it. :) | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/2/2007 7:45:49 AM | Christian matyrs, they maybe foolish, mislead. Or they may be "preaching the Gospel in season and out."
China is very hungry for the Gospel, by there is danger, we Pentecostals have long admired the missionaries like brother Andrew. The Gospel smuggler. Now they have an official red Bible press.
35,000 new Chinese converts a week.
India is dangerous, Sudan and Pakistan... but God leads people there, to change their values... introduce them to Jesus, divine love, salvation and holiness...
They should love and also love and utilise the police too, as is known in India.
There is always oposition.
Jesus last words were about the ends of the earth.
PNG appreciates past missionaries.
Sometimes they go there for love of Jesus and unbelievers, sometimes they grew up there, innocently preach, and are violently opposed.
See www.tearsoftheoppressed.org | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/2/2007 11:04:57 AM | Ugh, missionaries. The very concept is about as distasteful and ethnocentric as it gets in modern society.
Think about it: a bunch of people from a wealthy, well-off nation go into the middle of some shithole and tell all the poor, starving, suffering people "the reason you suffer is because of this invisible Sky Man who loves you, and if you believe in him and his perfect Sky Man Boy, he'll make you happy! Look at us, we're happy!" You know what that translates as?
Your entire culture is wrong and ours is right, because we have wealth and prosperity.
Now, if the missionaries genuinely wanted to help the suffering, why mention God or Jesus at all? Why not help the suffering because it's the right ****ing thing to do? Why the need to rationalize?
That being said, I'm not saying these koreans deserve to be killed: nobody does. Every human life is sacred, but so is every human mind and culture. They knew full well when they left that they were going into a terribly dangerous place, and that running around screaming "Yay, Jesus!" would be an incredibly dangerous and stupid thing to do, and could get them in trouble... and look, it did.
Pfft... "Christian Opression". What a crock. If christians truly desired to ease the suffering of others, they wouldn't use Christ as an excuse: they'd simply go, feed the hungry, shelter the poor, comfort the sick, and let Jesus worry about converting them. After all, God is omnipotent and omniscient: He is EVERYWHERE, in EVERYTHING, and can do ANYTHING. Why the hell would He need some pitiful, egotistical mortal with delusions of grandeur do the work for Him? | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/2/2007 12:41:48 PM | Unselfish missionaries are out to enrich the poor spirits, souls and bodies of people all overthe world, Ukraine to Uganda...
They love them, honest missionaries. | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/2/2007 1:46:02 PM | RELIGION IS ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS ANYWAY....THATS WHY YOU NEED BLIND FAITH TO ACCEPT IT. REASON, LOGIC, OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY CAN'T STOP BLIND FATH....RELIGION NEVER LETS FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD MYTH | |
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| Christian Martyrs?
Posted: 8/2/2007 2:55:02 PM | | Rocky...I can hear you in England (caps should be off) Lol! | |
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