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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 8:36:51 AM | Ladies, this is something I have found extremly perplexing to say the least:
We all know the hackneyed old stereotype of the attractive girl who dates/sleeps with/marries the guy who abuses her, blah blah blah, right?
Well, it's a hackneyed old stereotype because it happens a lot.....
Also, females between the ages of 16 and 50 or so seem to be downright allergic to compliments, it's almost like you'd be getting a better response if you'd throw something spiky at them than give them a compliment.
I have been told that the reason for both of these highly backwards patterns is 'low self esteem'.
Now why would attractive, 'popular' girls (those are the ones we're talking about here) have low self esteem?
They look in the mirror and see an attractive girl, all the guys are constantly after them, all the other girls envy them and want to be them, where, pray tell, does this alleged low self esteem come from?
And even if it does indeed exist, wouldn't they rather get a compliment (raising aforementioned self esteem....) than the abuse they seem to be craving (lowering the already low self esteem even further...)?
Perhaps there isn't really any low self esteem at all, and it's just a cop-out for being screwed up in the head?
Maybe it's just another of the about 50,000 billion different code phrases for 'you're not my type, go away'?
Have women always been that way, or could it be generational?
I have noticed that certain generations seem to be substantially more f***ed up than others. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 8:49:52 AM | It's not always low self esteem, though lots of times it is. A lot of women have been raised to be "modest" and not prideful, and it's gone to the extremes to the point that to just graciously accept a compliment must mean that we "agree" with the compliment and that makes us seem "stuck on ourselves" or something. I really don't know how to put this in words that make sense, but I have a little bit of that mentality. I don't necessarily agree with every compliment I get, (for instance I hate my hair) but I am trying harder to just smile and say "thank you." But it takes a real effort to do it.
I think there are people who really have low self esteem and really can't accept a compliment for what it is, because they really don't believe what the other person is telling them.
And I also think that there are the people who "argue" with a compliment just to keep the compliments coming. It's an attention thing. When they say "oh go on!" They mean "Go on and on and on!" | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 8:57:47 AM | | Well, actually, the compliments tend to make them run, run, RUN for the tall grass.... | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 9:00:24 AM | I was one of those women for a lot of years. When I was young, I was gorgeous, smart, funny and I hated myself. I suppose you could have called my low self-esteem "being f***ed in the head. Eventually, I traced my issues to my family life as a child. What happens is a more complicated game of "monkey see, monkey do." We imitate what we lived. If we grew up being told, overtly or covertly, that we were sh*t, we believed we were sh*t. So, when these women hear compliments they think, "How can he think that? I'm sh*t."
What I am getting at is isnt that you have done anything wrong. These women still havent made peace with their past. They need to base their self-esteem on reality.Maybe that will help you better understand these women. ANd, maybe, these women might be a bit "too much" for you. That's up to you. Good luck! | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 9:01:51 AM | Well I'm a guy, but I do have low self-esteem.
The compliment thing is somewhat complicated.
For me there are the 2 things BC mentioned - mistrust and compliment fishing.
There is also an element of risk-avoidance. I know that when I get complimented and I accept it, it makes me much more sensitive to criticism. (percieved or otherwise)
If I can stay in a low place self-esteem wise, I can avoid the pain of having my esteem deflated. Hopefully that makes some sense.
As for the other...
Stockholm syndrome, etc. One of the ways to "adapt" to such a situation of danger and terror is to fall in love with your abuser.
Humans are wierd. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 9:06:12 AM |
I was one of those women for a lot of years. When I was young, I was gorgeous, smart, funny and I hated myself. I suppose you could have called my low self-esteem "being f***ed in the head. Eventually, I traced my issues to my family life as a child. What happens is a more complicated game of "monkey see, monkey do." We imitate what we lived. If we grew up being told, overtly or covertly, that we were sh*t, we believed we were sh*t. So, when these women hear compliments they think, "How can he think that? I'm sh*t."
What I am getting at is isnt that you have done anything wrong. These women still havent made peace with their past. They need to base their self-esteem on reality.Maybe that will help you better understand these women. ANd, maybe, these women might be a bit "too much" for you. That's up to you. Good luck!
That was an extremely insightful reply, my compliments!  | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 9:09:43 AM | | Thanx EyeDye! :) It might sound hokey, but I am glad that I can use some of my less than pleasant experiences to maybe help someone else. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 9:46:32 AM | Hmm, it could also be that some women are so used to compliments they think that a guy that is more insulting is just more willing to tell what they might really be thinking.
Yeah theres the low self esteem people and the people that find it hard to accept compliments.
I think though theres also a third the people that think that people are patronizing of them because the person isn't confident enough to say it like it is.
What I mean is obviously if your a good looking woman your bound to get a majority of good comments. It would be a lot more rare for a guy to say something more mean.
Thing is that most guys who are abusive might be good at hiding it. They might say things that make them sound confident and full of high self esteem. Like being opinionated but in a way that dosen't make them sound like a jerk. It would look to the woman like the guy is just not afraid to challenger her or speak his mind.
Unfourtunately over time this gets worse and worse the comments become meaner and meaner. Usually the abuser is good at finding fault with the other person and making it seem fully plausible by overcriticizing the persons more apparent faults and chips the self esteem of the person their with. I mean from what I've seen of people who are abusive or have that habit of making others feel bad about themselves. They seem really good at drawing attention away from their faults and waiting until you slip up. Then they will lie and cover up anytime they have done something stupid and will look for every chance to point out your foolishness and stupidity. Though the thing is their smart enough to look for the right oppourtunity to do it and present the argument in a way that seems so logical that eventually the victim starts to beleive what their being told. Their not like normal people while most people would not look for ways to chink away your self esteem they look for the perfect oppourtunity and the right time to do it. Resulting in the victim developing the I can prove myself to them syndrome. Anyways thats my theory.
I think the problem is that many of these abusive people are control freaks whether they realize it conciously or not. They tend to love pointing out how irresponsible you are and all that but they never openly admit any of their mistakes. Even when their plainly and clearly lying. Their usually taking advantage of a normal persons kindness to not attack other people with their faults as their trump card.
I might be wrong but I think thats what usually happens. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 10:56:08 AM | I think it depends on the guys and relationships she has....
Even if she's like you said, likes herself & is confident, etc.... she could still have a guy at home that treats her like dirt or cheats on her. I think after a while she believes this is normal and "what she deserves" or something, and the low self esteem kicks in.
I think the cycle can be broken, but she would probably go through a few guys that are good before finally getting in her head that how she used to be treated was actually wrong. Hence the not accepting compliements. Then hopefully she'll get MAD, and work on herself on the inside instead of just the outside. Only after that can she even hope to look for a normal relationship.
I know people now who are on both sides of this coin, the low self esteen girl and the guy who takes advantage of it. When he throws her away, it will take her years to figure out the damage that was done by him. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 11:32:18 AM | Yeah, Jessika, thats the downward spiral. Those type of people prey on so-called damaged people. The abuse starts in subtle forms, then builds and intesifies with time. And, you are right in that she begins to believe she is not only responsible for the abuse but she deserves it. Down, down, down she goes; the cycle perpetuates itself.
It is possible to break the cycle. However, it requires a tremendous effort on the part of the abused. She has to change her entire outlook on life. It usually takes some trigger event-a death in the family, an injury-to get her to realize the mess she is in. What also makes it hard is that she believes she deserves the awful life she is living.
Its a terrible trap. But there is hope. :) | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 11:52:55 AM | | My guess is that this is just another disguised "nice guys don't get no action" post. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 12:48:46 PM | My self esteem is definitely not low at all, but I do constantly watch what I say and do so as not to be arrogant or egotistical - because I really loathe those qualities in general.
I do have a bit of a hard time with compliments, and sometimes I take them not for what they are but wonder what the reason really is behind them. Not always, but sometimes - depending on the situation. I really don't like a compliment that has some other reason behind it - sometimes compliments are followed up with something else, like the person wants to compliment you as a lead in. To me that's not genuine, it's manipulative.
However I will always smile, say thanks and make sure it's appreciated. I know full well there might be a day when they stop coming. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 12:59:35 PM | | I sometimes have a problem with accepting compliments, but I've gotten better as I've gotten older. I am one of those women who was raised to be very modest in that respect. A few years ago, I used to date a guy who was waaay overkill with his compliments. Although they can be nice, he just kept them coming almost to the point where they seemed insincere. One time, I complimented him on going 20 minutes without giving one. In hindsight, I should have run away from the get go. He turned out to be one of those "but I'm a nice guy" kind of guys who was really a very troubled individual. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 1:24:43 PM | Speaking generally....a woman who was raised by a father too busy earning a paycheck to give her attention, or too focused on his own good time to give her attention, or perhaps a mother who was too wrapped up in her own needs, never taught her daughter how to love her own self, or maybe there was some other way the daughter got ignored, but whatever, she grew up not feeling loved enough by her own parents.
If her parents aren't that interested in making her the center of their own universe, then that daughter may wonder why a guy tries to do the same in order to get into her pants. she knows she can get sexual attention from guys,but real love, like she sees in the movies? | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 1:35:32 PM | | men who date women for their looks don't see the girl as a person, see them as an object or trophy, treat them accordingly and the girl eventually ends up seeing herself that way, gets a low self esteem | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 2:04:13 PM | I have still... a hard time ,sometimes, when I receive a compliment! When I was beat by my ex husband and told I was ugly and lots of other things... then when he wanted to appologize he would then say I was Pretty..sexy...smart etc.. etc..I never believed him because IF I was all those wonderful things then how could he beat me so badly??
Things are a LOT better now. At least I don't say yeah right and start crying when someone is being sincere!
Now... as far as receiving a gift... That is a little harder for me because after every beating he gave me a gift as a way of saying he was sorry. I have a way to go before I can accept a gift and NOT wonder what that person has done so wrong that they feel the need to give me a gift! It is not anyones fault but mine and I am working on the issues I have...
I am getting stronger all the time! It has been 3 1/2 years since I left him and haven't looked back. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 2:16:48 PM | Speaking generally....a woman who was raised by a father too busy earning a paycheck to give her attention, or too focused on his own good time to give her attention, or perhaps a mother who was too wrapped up in her own needs, never taught her daughter how to love her own self, or maybe there was some other way the daughter got ignored, but whatever, she grew up not feeling loved enough by her own parents.
If her parents aren't that interested in making her the center of their own universe, then that daughter may wonder why a guy tries to do the same in order to get into her pants. she knows she can get sexual attention from guys,but real love, like she sees in the movies?
This was the case with me - well sort of. My dad wasn't around, my mom was VERY heavy handed in order to make up for my father not being there, and my mom was a major drama queen. If she wasn't the focus of attention she got real manipulative and vicious, unfortunately she also saw her kids as competition. Because of that she either ignored or downplayed any accomplishments we had and chose to instead bring the focus to how she was somehow involved, and rarely showed up for things like school plays, sporting events, etc. Pair that up with all of us coming from an extremely non-emotional or overly affectionate family and basically that's my issue...and those were just the emotional conditions we were raised with. I won't go into the other stuff, but my point is childhood is what does it for some women, not just romantic relationships.
My sister and I both talk frequently now about how closed off emotionally we are based on our household - self therapy I guess.
Just an angle to consider. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/14/2007 3:08:41 PM | OP, IMHO, self-esteem is the value that you place on yourself, and is best measured by how much you keep to what you believe. If you value yourself highly, then you do not change to suit others, and you are not affected by their opinion of you, whether they praise you or insult you.
So often, these 'popular' girls, put on make-up every day, because they think that no guy will like them for who they are, but for what they look like, even though they believe that the inside is what matters most in a relationship, and they have a good personality and a good heart.
That is why they stick to abusers. They believe that they are only valued for their looks, and do not believe that any decent guy who wants a person for more than looks would ever value them, and so if they meet a decent guy, they believe that he will leave them, and decide there is no point staying with him. They often believe that the abuser only wants her for her looks, but at least he won't leave her.
It's also why they don't like compliments. They believe they are not very nice people, and worthless, so being given a compliment is too nice for them to accept. It contradicts their view of themselves. Also, when they do believe a compliment, they do not fully accept it, and so ride on a false sense of self-worth, which blinds them to other abusers. So they get hurt even more when they get compliments, and avoid them like the plagues so they don't build themselves up any more, and get hurt too much.
Even if they see evidence to the contrary, the mind tends to re-interpret this evidence in terms of the person's low self-esteem, and finds a way to look at the facts as though they support the person's viewpoint. This is called "serial invalidation". Like when a man tells a woman that she is attractive, and she assumes that he does not thing she is attractive, and is lying to get sex.
People's self-esteem is built up usually by their initial contacts with others and how much criticism and encouragement they receive during that period. So people who grow up in times when people are more critical of others, and so of them, develop lower self-esteem that people who grew up in times when people were more encouraging and less critical.
The other thing that affects self-esteem is one's initial sexual experiences, because the body produces hormones in response to sex, that make the person far more easily influenced by their sexual partner. So if a person is treated in a very abusive and denigrating way during initial sexual experiences, those hormones influence that person to see themselves as lacking value both as a sexual partner and a romantic partner. But these hormones seem to affect women much more than men in this regard.
As a consequence, if women start dating during a period of time when men treat attractive women as though they are only good for casual sex, a significant number of attractive women develop a sense of self-worth that tells them they are only valuable to men for casual sex, and not for a relationship. Such women either turn to other women for sex & romance, or enter into a series of abusive relationships, and avoid decent relationships with decent men.
Men do this too, but with men, it seems to be that they are more initially affected by how they are perceived by their families, their peers, and their value in the workplace. When it comes to dating, they are affected not by sex itself, but by the likelihood of getting sex and a relationship.
For most men & women, they only seem to change when they hit a "wall", a situation of such emotional intensity that it overwhelms the sense of self-worth for such a long period of time, that the initial sense of self-worth is wiped out, like computer who's memory gets wiped. At such a point, the person has a "crash", and experiences a "reboot", with all of the previous emotional self-worth wiped out, both the bad and the good. It is not uncommon for the person to act like a child during this period, and find that they have to re-learn their emotional responses to experiences.
If the person is sufficiently mature enough to reprocess the new experiences in a more adult manner, and/or experiences more encouragement than they did during their formative years, it is possible for the person to develop a new, more positive sense of self-worth.
That is probably why people used to say that "life begins at forty". People used to take stock of their lives at 40, and experience a mid-life crisis. the realisation that their life did not turn out at all like they wanted or hope for, formed such mental and emotional anguish, that it wiped out their previous sense of self-worth, and they began with a new slate, and were able to see themselves in a whole new light.
It's also why so many women seem to suffer from a madonna/whore complex. Some women start meeting guys who are dating, who only value them for their personality and their nurturing instincts, and so they adopt that viewpoint of themselves from then on, as a mother, or madonna. Other women start meeting guys who only value them for looks and sex, and then find that they are unable to see themselves in any other light, and see themselves as a whore or a slut.
The equivalent in men is the nice guy / bad boy complex, but it usually starts in the playground, or at home with their siblings, when they are exposed to bullying. If they get bullied, then they lose their sense of empowerment, and become fearful of many situations, including women, where they become not so much afraid of the women, but of the men who surround them, and only afraid of the women as an indirect result, like George McFly from Back To The Future. If they get invited to join the bullies instead, then they rise up the ranks to become like Biff, and become abusive.
Both groups of men seem to develop a "wall", when they realise that both fearful behaviour and overly aggressive behaviour is only desirable to a point, and there is a "ceiling" in both their work life and in their dating life, which is usually a dead end job and self-serving abusive relationships, beyond which they are stopped from progressing. If they wish to progress beyond that to a secure, successful career and a real, loving relationship, they have to develop an assertive way to dealing with life.
Anyway, I know it doesn't exactly describe every situation down to the minutest detail, but it is a general model which has to be applied individually to individual people. But it does help to explain general trends in human behaviour.
Just my $0.02 | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 4:54:55 PM | Compliments....ok let me tell you. If you mean online compliments, sometimes I do blow them off. Why? Because men online say the exact same things over and over and over and over and over...you get desensitized to it. You're not surprised by anything they say or do online. Seriously. What surprises me is a guy who can actually hold a conversation that doesn't revolve around anything sexual. Because as soon as something sexual pops up, he's become yet another internet perv to me. So hearing I'm beautiful may be a great thing, but considering 50 other guys said it, and then followed up later with something inappropriate is going to make me wary of the next guy saying it. Unfortunately it's just the way it is.
As for low self esteem and abusive relationships...been there and done that. There are people who can rob you and strip you of every ounce of self esteem you have too. They are master abusers who know how to do it. I can spot them quickly now but back in my 20's...i was an idiot to this concept...They will put you up on a pedestal, and little by little strip you off, one comment here, another there, and make you think that you're just not as good as you thought you were, and maybe if I changed this, or did this differently I would be good enough.
I could go on and on but you get the point. It's not just men, there are women who do this to men as well. Parents who do it to kids...Abusers (especially those working on your mental state) are just EVIL. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 5:14:06 PM |
Well, actually, the compliments tend to make them run, run, RUN for the tall grass....
Yeah they run for the tall gras because somehow they think that men are so stupid and idiots that they would pull their pants down or take their skirts and f-k them right there ...in the middle of DT or wherever public place you may be. ( I am exagerating a bit of course ...for illustration purposes)
Nowadays a straight complimet means like: I like you I want to f-k you....but they need more backgroung from you before you jump into this compliments....
Or...Or....you need to compliment them super-duper-uninterested in them somehow in a meeting (give them credits), or parties when others are looking....
So its not a 1-1 game anymore really....especially if you come up as a stranger. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 5:47:57 PM | Our culture imposes women ...stemming from girlhood to feel bad about their uniquessness, beauty and intelligence...
so stop b!tching about women's self esteem and take a look at what we are innundated constantly through the media, cutlure and celebrity status... | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 5:56:01 PM | Oy vey already with the gender generalities. I'm so glad I'm no longer in the 16-50 age group allergic to compliments. I LOVE COMPLIMENTS! I deserve them. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 6:26:24 PM |
I was one of those women for a lot of years. When I was young, I was gorgeous, smart, funny and I hated myself. I suppose you could have called my low self-esteem "being f***ed in the head. Eventually, I traced my issues to my family life as a child. What happens is a more complicated game of "monkey see, monkey do." We imitate what we lived. If we grew up being told, overtly or covertly, that we were sh*t, we believed we were sh*t. So, when these women hear compliments they think, "How can he think that? I'm sh*t." Ditto on that. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 7:21:06 PM | I think the cycle can be broken, but she would probably go through a few guys that are good before finally getting in her head that how she used to be treated was actually wrong. Hence the not accepting compliments. Then hopefully she'll get MAD, and work on herself on the inside instead of just the outside. Only after that can she even hope to look for a normal relationship.
I know or knew girls who said they didn't know how to take compliments. But, they dressed to impress but later admitted to me that deep down, they don't care otherwise, that is just something girls do. Whatever that meant. Some girls are snobby, judgemental or really opinionated and you're not sure whether they have low self-esteem or not. Are they covering it up or overcompensating by seeming smug, overconfident and self-assured or is it a deeper issue relating to low self-esteem?
I thought some girls would appreciate a sincere compliment about her appearance but especially about something non-physical. I'm appreciative of a girl who values education or who reads and who likes music. But, I find most girls who do don't really care about a guy who appreciates this unless the guy is GQ material or has lots of money. The point is, regardless of whether they care about compliments, it always goes back to the same story: they are still seeking something superficial and the compliments only matter if they are interested in the communicator. | |
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| Low self esteem?
Posted: 8/25/2008 8:23:11 PM | I have low self esteem! I have low self esteem!
And you'll continue to have it as long as you pay for the time you spend with "women". How can you ever expect to raise your esteem if you think giving money for someone's attention is a substitute for it? How will you ever know if someone likes you for you? You never will Stan.
Agree with the observation of how one was raised or treated during their childhood years has a lasting effect on how they percieve themselves into adulthood. This is coming from the fat kid that always got chosen last for sports and was teased and picked on for quite a number of years. It took me a very long time to get over that. Into my 30's BTW. Now, I could careless what anyone thinks of me. Their opinions mean squat. I know who I am. | |
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