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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/24/2007 8:26:02 PM | A zen koan is a short story or sentence that initially seems paradoxical in nature. It is a learning tool intended to alter our perception of reality... I have always been intrigued by koans and paradox in general, so I thought I would bring the concept here to see what others think...
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
3) What is the color of the wind?
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
"The aim of the koan is to encourage the student to enquire and to search deeper... nurturing that part of the mind where no logical analysis can reach, to transcend the duality of the senses and the relativity of all things so the student can view the world as a whole. When the student is attuned to this part of the mind the koan will reveal itself... "
I'd love to hear comments, interpretations, "solutions", etc..... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/24/2007 8:46:21 PM | | This is an interesting topic. The left side of my brain is telling me these are not logical questions while the right side of my brain is trying to figure out where these questions are going... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/24/2007 8:55:21 PM | | Problem I've always had with koans is, you can't really say what the answer is. It seems more to me that the only audible response that one can give if one "gets" it is, "Ahh..." | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/24/2007 11:03:48 PM | Cool thread Sassy!
I've always loved koans and how they disolve duality... Paradox causes growth by returning the mind to the childs mind... Back to the state of wonder and "what if"s... Tha answers to these koans which are deemed acceptable are not really easily viewed by the public... Where they are supposed to take you is a place that must be travelled through and not just seen on the map, but just for fun, I'm gonna try a couple...
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
Wonderful!
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
The many parts that make up the one.
3) What is the color of the wind?
Today I will go with orange... I am thirsty...
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
The coming rain will nourish the crops...
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
A form of reality, forged into the shape of disipline which we labeled "Short Staff".
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
Personally, I take exception to Kegon's reply... A broken mirror not only reflects, but it reflects even more views than it did to begin with... Fallen flowers still help the nutrition of it's old branches and even the whole tree!
My answer would just have been-- With a smile and without malice, helping along the way...
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
Alot of people get a notion in their head that to be like Buddha is to become the Buddha... That is far from the truth... Buddha said to look for your own way... You are already Buddha, you just have to recognize it... So if you see something in the Buddha that goes against your way, it is not the real Buddha and you should not wrestle with the illusion of failure...
"While seeking to be taught the disciple learns only that there is nothing that anyone else can teach him... The secret is that there is no secret. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"
--Sheldon B. Kopp.
One of my favorite koans is Letting go of letting go...
A monk asked Chao-chou Ts'ung-shen "What should I do now that I've let go of everything?" Chao-chou said "Let go of that!" The monk said back" What do you mean? I've let go of everything?" Chao-chou said" Okay, continue carrying it with you." The monk didn't get it... Holding on to letting go isn't letting go...
How do you let go? Become that which you would let go of.
These last two koans explain why though I follow most teachings of the Buddha, I am not Buddhist... Clinging to the term goes against what Buddha taught me. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 5:53:15 AM | Love it sassy!
I thought you said you weren't having fun? Lol!
Free falling is what I get from the koan thing...
Not answering questions are the best answers I can give. 
If we were able to remove everyone’s perception of the world and take away all the habitual teaching methods that cloud those perceptions, what would we see?
We have developed our own ideas about reality… Things our peers have predetermined for us.
We have developed our own egos through believing that what we have learned is correct… How silly we would look if suddenly the enlightenment of a new universal-wide perspective emerged!
For as long as science tells us that time is linear, and we accept this, how does one bother to examine the timelessness that dwells within?
While the world revolves on its own axis something else is happening… Love too revolves on its axis but isn’t observed with nearly the same clarity.  | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 11:18:39 AM | 1) Before I was born I didn't have a face. This is true whether I'm dwelling on the alleged duality of good and evil or not.
2) It's reduced to a negative number and/or a fraction, if it's reduced at all.
3) Clear.
4) Nothing.
5) Ask Bart Simpson; he figured it out a long time ago.
6) Bo staff.
7) But broken mirrors do reflect. If you didn't know the answer, Kegon, why didn't you just say so?
8) Why would I kill Buddha? He seems like a nice enough chap. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 2:40:37 PM | Thanks everyone for your input 
Sky:
Not answering questions are the best answers I can give. What a perfect koan-like response! I like it :)
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?" Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches." I think this one might be my favorite.. but I am baised... it seems to "mirror" a poem I wrote many years ago without even knowing about this particular koan..
Stone:
Personally, I take exception to Kegon's reply... A broken mirror not only reflects, but it reflects even more views than it did to begin with... Fallen flowers still help the nutrition of it's old branches and even the whole tree!
My answer would just have been-- With a smile and without malice, helping along the way... I like your response :)
To me Kegons answer was such in order to express the notion that perhaps it was only ever an illusion that he was even in the "ordinary world"? Some things are seen as irrevocable, when perhaps they are simply a continuance of continuance...
But that is just my take and also I think, the inherent beauty of the koan... the possible responses are as varied as we are.... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 3:34:21 PM | If you see the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him
Because the true Buddha is inside of us, so that is a false Buddha
Caught that on an epi of CSI :) | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 4:10:42 PM | Hi Sassy,
Wow!.... am I ever in the dark...there is just SO much I don't know.....haha!!...I have never even heard of this, but I like it, I like it a lot...umm.... and even though I realize the answers are supposed to make us reflect and are not really answerable (is that a word?)l there is a couple I would like to answer anyways....haha...of course!
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
The first word that popped in my mind when I read this was.... peaceful....at peace.
3) What is the color of the wind?
Funny, but I kept seeing the color gold....amber....and I have no idea why...haha!!
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
Um.... this was my favorite....the broken mirror can only reflect so much MORE light now, enabling you to see everything in multi-faceted ways you might've missed otherwise....and the fallen flowers will simply *die* and become nourishement for the whole tree....and become part of it again in a more complete whole way...well that's how I see it anyways...
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
Haha!!! Well I wasn't far off, but I cannot say I was sure of what it really meant until I saw the answer written above me....and it makes perfect sense....
Okay, I didn't answer the rest of the questions because well, I just can't right now...haha...this is all new to me, but I loved it, and I thank you for introducing me to this...
Love and peace...
Oldsoul... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 10:24:26 PM | Hi again Sassy,
Sorry but I had to come to this thread again...haha....but I forgot to answer one question in my last post....and I swear I've been thinking a lot about this stuff since you posted this thread....it reasonates with me.... a lot... ...so here goes...
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Well for me the answer is EVERYTHING and ANYTHING ...and the reason why this is the right answer for me is because when I finally got to the point where I just couldn't do anything anymore, I was forced into a state of *nothing-ness* if you will....which then forced me to look inward and look for the answers that were within me...I was just too busy looking everwhere else for the answers....I'd forgotten to look inside myself!!!! It's all so clear to me now....so yeah, being unable to do nothing has in fact allowed me to become free....it is kinda hard to explain, so I hope this makes some sense...haha!!!
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
And I had to come back to this one again....because this is basically what happened to me!! To me that question means that once you ARE enlightened, how do you go back to your old life....in other words, or in my case I should say, once you've seen the truth and the beauty of the world, but you've ALSO seen toomuch sorrow and seen too much pain, how do reconcile that with your world....how can you go back and feel joy again? Well that's it!!! Just like the mirror, I too thought I was broken, when in fact I am simply different than I used to be....and I am now able to see many different things I just couldn't see before BECAUSE I've been broken.....!!! Just like a broken mirror reflects more light....I can too...and so what if I'm not in the same original condition I was in before .....just like the broken mirror is capable to be something else just as useful and perhaps even more beautiful....so can I!!!!
And the fallen flower, I choose to see as my beautiful daughter ........yes she may be fallen, but for now she is not far from the tree, and for that alone I am grateful.... and while I will always grieve the girl she used to be, and could have been.....I'll instead try to remember that she has given me the most precious gift of all, which is my precious grand-daughter....and THAT nourishes the tree...and that will be good enough for me...and I will find peace in that.....do you know what I mean??
I swear it all makes perfect sense to me now...and I know I must sound like I've just been *born again* with all of this, but in a sense I feel I HAVE been reborn....and I mean no disrespect by that comment...it is simply the way I feel....anyways, I just had to share this with someone....okay I go now...haha!!!
Thanks .....and take care!
Love and peace....
Oldsoul... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 11:14:18 PM | Here are my answers, which truly show a profound understanding of zen techniques:
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
But my mind is always dwelling on the dualism of good and evil.
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
The square root of negative one, i.
3) What is the color of the wind?
The same color as the letter J.
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Non-things.
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
A red feather held by a young boy.
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
I would answer this by simply ripping the staff from his hands and hitting him in the face with it, saying only, "That is what I call it." (Perhaps a bit too pragmatic for Buddhism, but meh.)
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
An enlightened one has no desire to return to the ordinary world, much less desire at all.
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.
And yet the Buddha is already dead. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/25/2007 11:45:43 PM | Hey again Sassy... Not sure if I should be putting these here or not.
Just something I found and wanted to share, but it's really more of a parable than a koan... And I'm not sure where I got it from... One of the sutras I think.
But it's Zen...
A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted! | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 12:05:10 AM | ^^^^
My goodness....are you guys trying to *enlightned* me all at once here?? 
I know I've been here a few times already, but dang!...... I'm dying to share what I think that little story means for me....hey, you guys got me started on these, so now someone must be held accountable for creating this monster...haha!!!.....to me it means you should grab whatever beauty/sweetness/pleasure/joy available to you at the moment.... no matter what the circumstances you might find yourself under, cuz you just never know when your a$$ could be toast and this could be your last chance ever ...hahahaha!!!!
Or it could simply mean to always try and live each day and enjoy each moment like it was your very last....how very sweet everything would then seem to be indeed!
Or I suppose it could mean something entirely differrent and I've completely missed the point!!...haha!!
Well y'all have a good night now...
Love and peace...
Old... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 1:40:32 AM | Okay, I'm going to butcher this, but:
A young monk asked the Enlightened Sage, "what good is the ground I stand on? I am standing on it, so it can be neither tilled nor built upon. The earth in front of me and behind me comprise a path that can be trod, and the land on either side is tilled or built up with houses. I ask, what good is this ground?"
The Enlightened Sage reached out with his mind and took the monk into a dream-world. Suddenly, the ground behind the monk disappeared, and with it the path along which he had come. Likewise, the earth before him and the path he could follow. Also, the tilled fields and settled lands to either side were no longer there.
And the Enlightened Sage pointed to the nothingness on all sides of the young monk, into which he would fall were he to move, asking, "what good is the ground upon which you stand?"
I've also got a thing for the sort of Western paradox that could just as easily count as a koan. Here are two that I love:
Can God create a rock that God cannot lift?
And, the ever-popular:
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
I've actually encountered some good answers to this one, but I'd like to see what others think. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 4:00:00 AM |
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
An enlightened one, the face of God.
Warm, all-encompassing unconditional love. I sometimes feel it right between that moment I fall asleep and that moment I start dreaming.
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
The universe. The world. It is reduced to being everything all at once, including 'different' points in time.
3) What is the color of the wind?
"Sky High" it says on the paint lid -- The light blue color of my bedroom. Nothing is more relaxing to me because it reminds me of nature.
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
You are always your self.
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
I can do this one. keep your thumb out and pull your fingers down against your palm. The lesson is -- you don't know until you try. Even that which sounds impossible is not if you put your mind to it and try. You are capable of being whole even when you don't feel whole. Like I can only clap with one hand right now due to surgery having paralyzed the other one, hopefully only temporarily.
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
I might be missing the larger point on this one but I'd call it a staff and I not opposing or ignoring its reality -- I am simply not being overly descriptive because its all relative, anyway.
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
You can never be what you were -- For better or worse regardless of how happy or sad it makes you to think about the past you are here now. Use it the best you can. Be mindful of the moment.
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
To know the cycle of life and death is to appreciate and cherish life.
;-) Good Excercise, Sassy. My alias is kind of a koan because any entry would have a purpose or intent behind it. Or does it? Can it truly be a random entry? | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 7:14:10 AM | Sorry I just have to say one thing here as The Simpsons has effectively screwed up this koan...
It's no offense Random but there have been meditative institutions created in the name of the sound of one hand clapping... The Zen Master Hakuin(who made up this koan) told a monk he got it right when he came back smiling and said "I have heard sound without sound".
In Hakuin's defense, folding your fingers over isn't a clap-- one hard surface on another... It goes against these koans to be critical of others interpretations and for that I'm sorry but it seems to take away from hearing no sound.
K, Feral... I may screw these up but I don't like passing up a good koan...
Can God create a rock that God cannot lift?
In It's mind, yes and no... It is part of the rock so It would have to lift itself...
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
How much time do you have?
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 8:03:17 AM | I don't really believe the question "Can God create a rock he cannot lift?" is a true paradox.
What does it MEAN to be omnipotent? Most define it as the power to do anything that is logically possible. Sure, a being would lack the ability to do the logically impossible, but that's not really a limitation of power.
With that said, how can we answer this riddle? Well, there are two ways:
1. God can create a rock that it is logically impossible to lift. Therefore, the fact that God cannot lift it is not a paradox, because he can only do what is logically possible.
OR 2. God cannot create a rock that it is impossible for him to lift, because such a state of affairs is not logically possible.
Notice how the paradox disappears when we come up with a suitable interpretation of what "omnipotent" means.
As for how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, any Puritan would tell you that angels don't dance. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 8:23:20 AM |
In Hakuin's defense, folding your fingers over isn't a clap-- one hard surface on another...
Sure, it is. I can do it and IT DOES SOUND LIKE CLAPPING. They are the same fingers that would hit the opposite palm only they are hitting their own palm. This does not negate the act of one hand clapping. Same fingers hitting same palm -- still the same two prequisite hard surfaces.
You haven't tried OR you haven't suceeded. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 8:35:47 AM | ^^^ I knew it would be taken that way... It's just not what's meant is all... I thought it was clever at first too until I read about the koan itself and what it was trying to get across... These are about paradox... Anyone with one hand and a finger can make a sound by folding their fingers over quickly... Where's the paradox?
I don't mean to take away from your answer cuz I really dig the rest you gave... Just I keep hearing that answer to this particular koan and I just know it would've really pissed Hakuin off, lol! | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 9:21:28 AM | Maybe, maybe not.
yeah, I knew it wasnt intended that way when I posted it. But who is to say it is wrong if it really rattles your thinking out of your usual way of thinking? That's really the point behind the excercise -- don't become a creature of habit. We can become slaves to the regularity and familarity and safety of our thoughts as well as our environment. At least in a larger sense than strictly to the definition of paradox to which I think any degree is good for us.
From wikipedia:
A paradox is an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition. Typically, either the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably and wrongly with contradiction; but whereas a contradiction asserts its own opposite, many paradoxes do allow for resolution of some kind.
The recognition of ambiguities, equivocations, and unstated assumptions underlying known paradoxes has led to significant advances in science, philosophy and mathematics. But many paradoxes, such as Curry's paradox, do not yet have universally accepted resolutions.
Sometimes the term paradox is used for situations that are merely surprising. The birthday paradox, for instance, is unexpected but perfectly logical. This is also the usage in economics, where a paradox is a counterintuitive outcome of economic theory. In literature it can be any contradictory or obviously untrue statement, which resolves itself upon later inspection.
Maybe neither was the original koan (truly a paradox, that is) because it says it needs to be a statement or group of statements while "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" is a question. I guess the buddhist master did it wrong.
So I defer back to what I said earlier, about it being a way to rattle you out of your typical thought patterns. If you study some of the more recent articles done by National Geographic, Scientific America, The Mayo Clinic, you will see that is what the Buddhists excel at -- altering brainwaves. Sort of a "We are what we think" scenario. If you want quick results try the Hemi-Sync (tm) Audio CDs. Pretty incredible stuff. Technology can put you right there, right now. Read up on them . Or as George's Father would say "Serenity Now!" | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 9:33:44 AM |
Maybe neither was the original koan (truly a paradox, that is) because it says it needs to be a statement or group of statements while "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" is a question. I guess the buddhist master did it wrong.
You could afterall, be right in that! I'm just saying in all that I've read about the man(and no one said he was perfect or anything) he likely would've yelled MU at you while beating you with something... Some of those old Zen guys were tough **stards, lol! I guess some still are.
So I defer back to what I said earlier, about it being a way to rattle you out of your typical thought patterns.
I do that all the time... It is a good exercise and what these are all about... But I still disagree with you on whether or not fingertips on palm qualifies as a clap, LOL!! | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 11:02:43 AM | Geez... I even disagree with Wiki on paradox...
A paradox is an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition. Typically, either the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably and wrongly with contradiction; but whereas a contradiction asserts its own opposite, many paradoxes do allow for resolution of some kind.
Not implying contradiction is what paradox is all about... Opposites are merely polar complimentaries... Paradox sparks growth in my opinion...
When you reach contradiction in a line of reasoning it creates paradox... All paradoxes have a solution, it's just the solution usually comes from growing past your contradiction in reasoning, or thinking outside of your personal box... I see it as an unexpected change in set patterns...
Sorry guys... I likely shouldn't have said anything in the first place about the non clapping hand... This may not be the place to debate such things... I don't want to monopolize the thread. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 2:50:49 PM | Beautifulsoul:
Well for me the answer is EVERYTHING and ANYTHING ...and the reason why this is the right answer for me is because when I finally got to the point where I just couldn't do anything anymore, I was forced into a state of *nothing-ness* if you will....which then forced me to look inward and look for the answers that were within me...I was just too busy looking everwhere else for the answers....I'd forgotten to look inside myself!!!! It's all so clear to me now....so yeah, being unable to do nothing has in fact allowed me to become free....it is kinda hard to explain, so I hope this makes some sense...haha!!! Your honesty and open genuineness is endlessly refreshing... I think that was an amazing response and I thank you for sharing it ;)
Just like the mirror, I too thought I was broken, when in fact I am simply different than I used to be....and I am now able to see many different things I just couldn't see before BECAUSE I've been broken.....!!! Just like a broken mirror reflects more light....I can too...and so what if I'm not in the same original condition I was in before .....just like the broken mirror is capable to be something else just as useful and perhaps even more beautiful....so can I!!!! I agree completely... hence the unofficial name change
I swear it all makes perfect sense to me now...and I know I must sound like I've just been *born again* with all of this, but in a sense I feel I HAVE been reborn.... It's like seeing with new eyes :) | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 2:56:15 PM | Saintgasoline:
But my mind is always dwelling on the dualism of good and evil. Even right now?
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 3:01:14 PM | Random Entry:
Warm, all-encompassing unconditional love. I sometimes feel it right between that moment I fall asleep and that moment I start dreaming. .... that moment where conscious meets unconscious... separate yet seamless.... nice :) | |
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