|
|
|
|
|
| Iraq war documentary "No End in Sight"
Posted: 9/10/2007 2:56:42 PM | | Last night I saw the documentary film "No End in Sight" about the US administration's actions surrounding the invasion of Iraq and think every US voter should try to see it, regardless of their political orientation. This is not a Michael Moore type hatchet job --mostly it is documentary footage and interviews with highly placed administration officials and members of the military who were directly involved with the planning and operations. The film is restrained but devastating. Hs anyone else here on POF seen it yet? What do you think? | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/10/2007 3:36:30 PM | | I didn't see that show, but I did just see Kreskin who said that it will actually last for 3 decades! And that if we look at history, religious wars have notoriously lasted longer than all others. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/10/2007 6:31:49 PM | | OF COURSE........ its not suppose to end that's the point...................some buddies of a cretin pres are all getting richer and richer.............that's is the point.........it will never end because corporations need to make more money each quarter..... why do you think Iran is next..................endless war means endless profits........... | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/10/2007 7:45:27 PM | The main point that the film underscores is that the Bush administration completely bungled the operation from Day One -- actually "bungled" is too mild a word -- their unbelievable ineptness, ignorance and arrogance were unconscionable. They completely ignored and shut out their own most well-informed military and political experts and advisory panels -- it turns out that the president (sorry, can't bring myself to capitalize the title) did not even read ANY of the detailed reports and recommendations that were prepared -- NOT EVEN SINGLE PAGE SUMMARIES -- before dismissing them.
In my opinion, all of the people at high levels who were ultimately responsible for the policies (or, more precisely, lack of them) that were utilized in Iraq should be removed from office and prosecuted for dereliction of duty, at the very least, if not criminally negligent manslaughter, even high treason. The current absolute chaos in Iraq is directly the fault of their incompetent failure to follow through with a cohesive security and reconstruction plan after the invasion, not some "inevitable religious war."
Anyone who voted for Bush/Cheney should see this film: I believe they will feel ashamed, outraged and betrayed. I've no doubt this administration will go down in history as the one that caused the most lasting damage to the Republic, both at home and in the world. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 11:13:33 AM | I was against the invasion of Iraq from the begining. I thought it was a very bad
idea for a lot of reasons.
Not because we didnt have the moral imperative to do so,
we did, it was a savage regime, and in a good or perfect world all the monster regimes
would be destroyed and democratic regimes installed.
Not because we don't have the right to pre-emptively attack those planning to hurt us,
we do have that right, and should excercise it whenever needed.
Not because I was wringing my hands about Iraqi's getting killed, I could care less.
It was because we needed the monster Hussein, in place and in power to actas a buffer to Iran. If we are at war with Islamic Fundamentalism, which we are, then we should have attacked and laid waste the two centers of medieval Islam, Saudi Arabia and Iran.
That being said, we are there, and at the very least we are killing Islamic Fundamentalists. They have been streaming in from Syria, and Iran and dying in large numbers. And that is a very, very good thing. Think about it, for every one we kill now, thats how many thousands that wont be born in the future.
Perhaps it will have to be this way for the forseable future. Till such time that we start to kill them at the source. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 12:10:46 PM | Wow, you really believe that? "We are at war with Islamic fundamentalism."
I'm glad more people don't broadcast that misguided opinion. That's exactly what ideologues like Bin Laden want to hear to justify their attacks on the West as "defensive." Think about what you're saying. The West's complicated involvement in the Middle East is historically economic and strategic, not religious. Promulgating a "religious" agenda is simply an easy way for people in positions of power and influence to radicalize their citizens and manipulate them into doing their dirty work. Kind of like the current administration using their shamelessly phony flag-waving "patriotism" to dupe the American populace into unquestioningly supporting an indefensible war to accomplish their devious political and economic goals (it's about oil fields and influence, not religion.)
Fortunately, we are not all "unquestioning." | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 12:20:14 PM |
It was because we needed the monster Hussein, in place and in power to actas a buffer to Iran. If we are at war with Islamic Fundamentalism, which we are, then we should have attacked and laid waste the two centers of medieval Islam, Saudi Arabia and Iran.
That being said, we are there, and at the very least we are killing Islamic Fundamentalists. They have been streaming in from Syria, and Iran and dying in large numbers. And that is a very, very good thing. Think about it, for every one we kill now, thats how many thousands that wont be born in the future.
Perhaps it will have to be this way for the forseable future. Till such time that we start to kill them at the source.
The irony is you don't realize that with this attitude, you are exactly the same as the worst of them. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 12:24:51 PM | "The irony is you don't realize that with this attitude, you are exactly the same as the worst of them."
What attitude.? The worst of them? Who is them?
Last time I was tested my I.Q was 155. Im pretty sure I have a good bead on things. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 2:27:24 PM | What has your IQ to do with the topic? Quantity of cerebral capacity does not equate to quality of intellectual content.
The "worst of them," to whom you are being compared, would include anyone whose agenda is primarily genocidal (and "genocide" is the correct term for murdering people because of their religion or ethnic identity.) The "worst of them" would include Al Qaeda, the Janjaweed militias in Darfur, the "ethnic cleansers" on all sides in the Balkan wars, the Nazis and their concentration camps, the Japanese invaders of China During World War II -- even the US government during the 19th century with it's systematic exterminations of native peoples.
Please explain why your attitude is any different from theirs?
And as to your contention that Saddam was some sort of "protection" against Iran, remember that the US promulgated anti-Western sentiment in Iran by supporting the military dictatorship of the Shah as well as arming Iraq. We've meddled in the affairs of all of the Middle Eastern states, strictly for our own benefit, to some extent for decades -- is it any wonder many of their citizens resent us and are so easily swayed by "religious" demagogues ? | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 4:15:59 PM | " Please explain why your attitude is any different from theirs?"
Because my analysis is not based on emotion, hate, fear, or otherwise.
It is a dispassionate evaluation of the threat to secular, democratic western society from those individuals who base their world view and mind set on the vile, barbaric fantasies of a 6th century rapist, pedophile and murderer. Whether they number in the thousands or hundreds of millons is irrelevant. The threat they pose is unacceptable and they should be erased while we still can.. We cannot cede the future and the soul of man to the backward, evil garbage of the Koran. | |
|
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 6:23:20 PM | Sir. ,while it pleases me that you have recieved and absorbed this material, it saddens me that it has taken so long for people to get it. ~ and I mean no offence ~ You may take comfort in knowing that you are in the majority of Americans. ~ You pay your taxes , voted your conscience and expect the truth and only the best for your chosen leaders.
Unfourtunally, the same is true now ~ as it was with the Spanish/ American War and the Viet Nam War ~ Events were constructed and put into place by people that found wealth to be gain with military conflict ~ and again , we the American people shallowed it , hook , line and sinker. ~ It was a well though out plan with no regard to little ~ except profits.
We have been played!
I am at some disadvantage, in that I have not~ some much as heard of the documentary you speak of. ~ But I do know a little about the general state of affairs, politics and the power of the dollar. ~
War is an Industry, not unlike any other! The posssibility of Gains and Losses are great ~
You can look at it from many different ways ~ Young men die , while old men get rich
Or ~ As providing a proving ground for high tech research and development of weapons against personal, stationary and moving targets. ~ A way of ensuring our nation ~ that we are the meanest and baddest sons of bit~hes on the planet. We do that well.
In anycase ~ you've being lied too! ~
Harry Truman had one of the most difficult decisions any ONE man might ever make in the history of the world to THIS day. ~ Is it right to drop it? ~ His performance was nothing less then excellence for a president of America. ~ A heavy burden to bear for one man. We were in a protracted global war , we were fighting several fronts in several hemispheres with countless wounded and dead on both sides.
It was time to take the gloves off and put an end to it.
What we got now ~ ? ~ anything to compare to Harrys problem??
We were angry about 9/11 ~ so we made an example out of a few wimps that fit the general discription. Kicked their house in. ~ Our great president Ronnie Rayguns, did about the same thing ~ really worst ~ We sustain over 300 marines dead in the Buruit Bombing~ what we do ??? pull out and inside 30 days~ attack Kadaffe with a F111 attact and invade Granada ~~ Wooo! we are some bad mofros!
~ ~ I don't know if a democrate would have offered us better leadership in these times? ~ I just don't know ?~ But I do know that a Rupublican was sitting in the big chair when this all came to be. ~ this , this , lets' give the American people something to cheer about!! ~ CraP! ~ Feed the Roman people, satisfy the blood lust ~ just get them off my ass. ~ don't know about you , but it makes me ill? My thinking is one bullet one known target down. ~ not what we see today.
This present debacle ~ could have been avoided ~ but the military complex, not the soliders ~~~ ruled the day. ~ The commander and chief and company ~ is but a shadow puppet, a front man for war profiteers and the military support complex. Thats been very clear for a good 6 years.
Our senior military men were shouted down by Donald Rumfield and his support group, you know their names now ~ don't you?
Donald and Geo Bush ~ cerdentials quilify them as team supporters~ Cheer Leaders! they ARE cheerleaders!!!!!! `~ so where is the good ole team spirit?
they don' t know sh~t from shoe polish about military engagement, much less a occupational force and whats worst they want listen to anyone that does.~ dar | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 6:36:08 PM | The threat they pose is unacceptable and they should be erased while we still can.. We cannot cede the future and the soul of man to the backward, evil garbage of the Koran.
Gee, that sure sounds pretty emotional, hateful and fearfully passionate (as well as irrational) to me. I take it you're well-acquainted with the Koran and mainstream Muslim thought as well as quite positive that the majority of the civilians dying in Iraq are "Islamic fundamentalists"?
You know, it could be persuasively argued that Christianity is "backward, evil garbage" that poses a "threat to secular, democratic western society". Since you identify yourself as a Christian, would you care to volunteer yourself for systematic purging for the good of the State? And please explain where broad-spectrum genocide fits into your personal version of Christianity? I'm pretty well-acquainted with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (who is, by the way, honored by Muslims as a great prophet) and I don't recall anything about mass execution of followers of other faiths.
But, to return to the topic of the OP -- I'd invite you to see the film to expand your evidently somewhat limited understanding of the circumstances surrounding the "war".
The film only reinforced to me what I already knew or, at least, suspected (though even I was shocked by the blatant arrogance and incompetence that was revealed.) I was an anti-war activist during the Viet Nam years, protested against the Senior Bush's first Gulf War and have actively campaigned against Bush Jr. and all of his inept and egregious policies since Day One. I truly believe that Al Gore legitimately won the majority vote in 2000 and am confident that if he had been justly installed in office, with his far superior background in reasonable governance and international diplomacy, the US would not have been plunged into the unmanageable, costly and divisive abyss where we now find ourselves.
Yes, I agree that the US populace let itself be hoodwinked but I see hopeful signs that enough of them have come to their senses and are going to call the perpetrators to account -- I think films like this can only help the process along. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 8:48:20 PM |
Because my analysis is not based on emotion, hate, fear, or otherwise.
So you just based your analysis on prejudice for the heck of it?
t is a dispassionate evaluation of the threat to secular, democratic western society from those individuals who base their world view and mind set on the vile, barbaric fantasies of a 6th century rapist, pedophile and murderer.
As opposed to western society, where many of the people from who we take our world view and mind set were... rapists, pedophiles and murderers.
The threat they pose is unacceptable and they should be erased while we still can..
They vastly outnumber you. If they were actually the enemy and wanted to kill you, you would already be dead. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/11/2007 9:11:30 PM | The U.S. is not "in war" with Iraq. The U.S. is "in war" with Iran.
Thats the way it goes folks. The U.S. is there to stay and no president will ever change that. It's time to pick another completely worthless topic to talk about. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/12/2007 7:07:46 AM | I wish it could be truly classified as a war.
appears more of a political conflict like the 38th parallel
like a war of ideas.
Where these ideas come from ? Iran for sure
but they also come from Saudi Arabia as well.
Interesting thing to note, we hear little about
the Jew question these days. ~ Ofcoarse I'm
not that connected with current muslim thinking.
Israel will never be allowed to stand down.
but it does seems that in- fighting dominates the day.
There will always be war and rumors of war
so it seems. ~ I feel for the innocents ones caught in the middle
of such carnage. ~dar | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/12/2007 7:54:11 AM | I don't know what to tell ya'.
I was certainly in a fighting war with people I would consider islamic fundamentalists. The problem was most of their foot soldiers were hungry and impressionable teenagers (14-17).
It's just the current continuation of the nearly 3000 year old eastern tribalism vs. western individualism conflict. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/13/2007 7:56:25 AM | To get back to the OP (which I posted) -- my intent was not to trigger another thread on the pros and cons of justification for the US involvement in Iraq or to provide a platform for kvetching about politics.
The point of the film (which I still insist that every US voter should see) that I wanted to bring to people's attention is that, whatever the Bush Administration's intentions were, valid or not, the actual execution of the invasion and occupation were conducted in a such an unconscionably inept and blindly irresponsible manner, that chaos and the complete deterioration of the Iraqi political, social and physical infrastructure was virtually guaranteed. As a result, the US faces GREATER insecurity in the long run now than it did before the invasion, since the collapse of any structural integrity to Iraqi society that might have been salvaged through a properly executed operation in Iraq leaves that nation now open to "colonization" by outlaw groups.
And, unlike Afghanistan, which is a largely rural, impoverished nation with a poorly educated population, Iraq has substantial resources, is strategically located, reasonably industrialized and had (at least before Saddam and the subsequent US involvement) a sophisticated, educated and technically competent professional middle class. The bungling of Bush's Iraq agenda must seem like a gift from heaven by groups (such as Al Quaeda) seeking a new geographic base for global recruiting and operations. | |
|
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/13/2007 4:03:00 PM | ^^^No one is hoop. I hate to break it to you since your entire argument seems to hinge on the water aspect of it but since the war started and the US decided to go in and blow the hell out of Baghdad and the other cities, three quarters of the population has no drinking water. So now that you have that answered, what's your next solution? Nuclear bombs?
By the way, what is your definition of America winning this war? | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/13/2007 6:29:19 PM |
This is not a Michael Moore type hatchet job --mostly it is documentary footage and interviews with highly placed administration officials and members of the military who were directly involved with the planning and operations. The film is restrained but devastating. Hs anyone else here on POF seen it yet? What do you think?
I thought it was a great film. It covered everything a book titled 'Fiasco' covered last year, just in less depth. It's amazing that the US made some of the erros it made in screwing up Iraq. If you had predicted things would have been this badly managed prior to the invasion no one would have believe this level of incompetence was possible. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/13/2007 6:56:13 PM | "Because my analysis is not based on emotion, hate , fear or otherwise"
Um, after reading the rest of what you wrote to justify ther murder of innocent Iraqs, I think you are full of emotion and fear... | |
|
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/13/2007 10:33:23 PM | | Yeah, we have been at war with Islam since the foundation of the US, Jefferson was kicking their butts way back in the day. I would argue that America was founded becasue of them. We had to find an all water route to trade because they where killing us "infidels" as we walked accross the desert to trade with China. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight
Posted: 9/13/2007 11:31:49 PM | The best example of what the OP is referring to is a story I read about that can highlight how badly this invasion was done. A group of Iraq ex pats were in a meeting with the President and VP, before the invasion. They mentioned the fact of the religious division in Iraq, and suddenly realized that neither of them were even aware of the implications of what that would mean in a post invasion Iraq.
By invading with a plan to win the war, but not the peace, the outcome was pretty much destined to become what it was. It was, in some ways, like the captain of the Titanic thinking his ship was unsinkable as he headed towards that iceberg at high speed.
By quickly compounding that error with Bremer's ineptitude , by creating the Bremer laws and disbanding the Iraqi army - the seeds of the insurgency were scattered all over Iraq to sprout shortly afterwards.
One of the reasons that Saddam was as he was , was due to the fact he realized that one of the few ways possible to keep these tribal and religious forces in check was to go into "Shaft" mode. By simply being feared, and brutal, those forces were kept in check. That's not a justification of his tactics, simply a realistic look at one of the reasons for them.
In fact, as the invasion was progressing, one American unit saw a celebration going on in the distance as they approached. They initially figured it was one to celebrate their liberation.
It was, but not in the way the Americans had thought. Only minutes after being "freed", the Iraqi's were now celebrating their freedom to now be Shia's .... and not Iraqis. 
This had all been predicted before the first bullet was ever fired.
"Iraq would be unlikely to split apart, but a post-Saddam authority would face a deeply divided society with a significant chance that domestic groups would engage in violent conflict with each other unless an occupying force prevented them from doing so," one assessment said. It warned of "score-settling" and "heightened competition for power among the different groups."
"Rogue ex-regime elements could forge an alliance with existing terrorist organizations or act independently to wage guerrilla warfare against the new government or coalition forces" .
The assessments, which compiled the consensus of the intelligence agencies, predicted that Al Qaeda would "accelerate its operational tempo and increase terrorist attacks" and could attempt to re-establish control in Afghanistan. They said an invasion of Iraq could increase support for extremists "as a result of Muslim outrage over U.S. action."
The assessment suggested that an Iraq war could strengthen Iran, where "some elements" could seek to "sow dissent against the U.S. presence and complicate the formation of a new, pro-U.S. Iraqi government."
(2003 American Intelligence Reports)
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/26/america/intel.1-62109.php
Thanks to people like Douglas Feth, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, et all..... this information was all ignored or minimized.
The military had war gamed the invasion of Iraq, and had found that 400,000 troops would be needed, and even that number of troops would still have difficulty.
# Desert Crossing: 1999 wargame on Iraq's invasion (04 Nov 2006)
In 1999 the US Army's Central Command (CENTCOM) conducted a series of wargames to assess potential outcomes of invading Iraq to unseat Saddam Hussein. The exercise's reports - uncovered in November 2006 by George Washington University's National Security Archive - argued that even with the use of 400,000 troops, an invasion and occupation would likely cause bloodshed, ethnic fragmentation and regional instability. CENTCOM's then leader, General Zinni, argues that the findings of "Desert Crossing" were ignored prior to Iraq's invasion.
http://www.iraqanalysis.org/info/442
General Zini made the following observation :
Zinni noted the parallels to what eventually happened after the invasion as well as to the lack of interest elsewhere in the U.S. government for tackling the problems of reconstruction:
The first meeting surfaced all the problems that have exactly happened now. This was 1999. And when I took it back and looked at it, I said, we need a plan. Not all of this is a military responsibility. I went back to State Department, to the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance, Department of Commerce and others and said, all right, how about you guys taking part of the plan. We need a plan in addition to the war plan for the reconstruction. Not interested. Would not look at it.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB207/index.htm
Plans were drawn up, and ignored :
The Future of Iraq Project (01 Sept 2006)
From October 2001, US State Department planners brought together over 200 engineers, lawyers, businesspeople, doctors and other experts to plan Iraq's future after Saddam. The New York Times has cited defense department officials as saying that the 'Future of Iraq' project was largely ignored after the 2003 invasion. The Project's 13-volume recommendations, as well as preliminary documents, have been made public by George Washington University's National Security Archive.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB198/index.htm
Untold millions of dollars had been spent in pre-war planning and war gaming. Military, intelligence, and other people had done their jobs well. They looked closely at the factors that would either lead to victory or defeat , based on their experience and knowledge.
The administration, long set on invading, found themselves with some problems. Allowing the number of troops needed to be successful was politically impossible, and so they reduced it to a ridiculous number.
They thought, because of their lack of international experience with other cultures, that Iraqis would act exactly as Americans or Europeans would to "liberation". It was going to be Paris, 1944....
They set up a central authority, a civilian entity, in Baghdad. Bremer started making decisions that the military were not even privy to. His corporate interests were far more important than any tactical one.
By disbanding the entire Iraqi army, something typically NOT done after an invasion (and not counted on by the military), a situation already made worse by the low number of troops involved in the initial invasion was turned critical.
I find it ludicrous that Mr. Bremer asserts that his releasing members of the old Iraqi Army to the wind and not reconstituti ng the force was right. With a pen stroke, he disbanded the Iraqi Army, releasing more than 400,000 heavily armed, mostly Sunni, soon to be very angry men. Overnight they lost their role in Iraqi society, their income and their promise of a pension.
The worst thing you can do to any Arab man is humiliate him. Mr. Bremer and his advisers humiliated nearly half a million Iraqi men. These Iraqis typically supported extended families of seven to eight others, derived their status from their service and possessed little or no other means of income. Mr. Bremer beggared more than three million Iraqis overnight.
Surprise of surprises that within weeks, a Sunni-led insurgency using military-issue weapons was ambushing convoys and being paid to plant bombs?
Paul Kane
Cambridge, Mass., Sept. 6, 2007
( Iraq war veteran)
The very invasion itself was launched into a blinding sandstorm, where vision was limited. It was a chilling , almost Shakespearean , omen of the political forces that had blindly stumbled forward ignoring all the warnings.
• TROOPS PREPARE AMID SANDSTORM: Senior Pentagon officials have told President Bush that U.S. troops are ready to attack Iraq on his order -- an order that top officials say could come in just a few hours -- even as a major sandstorm strikes Kuwait. Winds of up to 20 mph have dramatically challenged visibility. The skies are expected to clear overnight, but CNN Meteorologist Chad Myers said that even stronger winds are forecast for Thursday.
The current situation in Iraq , it's quagmire, is in no way due to the failure of your military or intelligence people. They did what they have always done, and served your country well, and in the best tradition of your nation.
The problem is that the men that lead them into war were in no way near as competent and knowledgeable as the troops were. They've continued to stubbornly cling to the same ideas, as their ego is more important than anything else. They've blamed others, made excuses, and never accepted that they were the authors of their own (and their country's) misfortune.
In war, mistakes will always be made. That's a fact.
To study this war, and the mistakes made, is another story. The people responsible for these mistakes should be brought to justice. Their egos, and desire for profit, have killed untold tens of thousands of people - and made the world more dangerous for us all. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
