| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/11/2007 10:37:29 PM | OK..anyone, everyone:
I heard a certain right-wing show on AM today, and heard the biggest potential news of human existence/commerce/trade ever.
This was discovered by accident: supposedly, hydrogen (and thereby energy, motion) can be extracted from regular ol' seawater by directing radio waves at it. Of course, this is in its infancy and will need more development, but if played out to its logical conclusion, this means NO MORE dependency on foreign oil ever again. Any oil really, save for heating oil.
Too good to be true, right....?? | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/11/2007 11:25:18 PM | Nice find dasistalles.
You Tube news broadcast
Posted Added: May 28, 2007?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGg0ATfoBgo
Newspaper
Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so
Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 12:07:06 AM | | I hope so, the only question of course is is the energy extracted from the process greater than the energy required pumped into the radio waves. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 12:17:23 AM | Wouldn't that be a 'perpetual motion' machine....that is not allowed to be patented.
Also....isn't hydrogen quite easy to come by in nature? | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 12:30:20 AM | This is nothing new. But you would get less energy potential out than what you put in. Then you have to separate the oxygen from the hydrogen, more loss. Using electricity is a much more efficient method. But still would do nothing for our oil dependency.
The holy grail is probably some enzyme catalyst method using sunlight, sort of like photosynthesis. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 1:53:40 AM |
Wouldn't that be a 'perpetual motion' machine....that is not allowed to be patented.
Also....isn't hydrogen quite easy to come by in nature?
No, not really. Because even under the circumstances I described you'd have to continually add more water. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 7:14:37 AM | Here is the article......
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8RIRI600&show_article=1
ERIE, Pa. (AP) - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.
John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.
The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.
Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.
The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.
The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.
"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."
Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.
The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen—which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit—would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.
"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge."
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Information from: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, http://www.post-gazette.com
It will indeed be interesting to watch this and see if it goes anywhere.....
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 7:47:10 AM | | From what I've read on hydrogen the biggest problem is the nature of hydrogen itself. It forms extremely strong bonds with other elements extremely easily. Then you get a net energy loss to seperate it and its very hard to keep it pure without it bonding back with something else. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 7:57:03 AM |
Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense........We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads...
The DOD will build cheaper bombs, making oil "extraction" from other countries (and their leaders) cheaper..... | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 8:19:56 AM | dasistalles I like the concept, but I really don't think it's us (meaning the average joe in the US) that is dependent upon foreign oil, it's our leaders who are hell bent on world domination thru the oil market. That's kinda how I see it. I think the average joe in this country would jump at the chance to have an alternative fuel source for many things, not just our automobiles. Look at the popularity of hybrid vehicles, they're sold out two years in advance.
Keep in mind also that there have been many alternate fuels engineered, and developed but they end up going to the highest bidder, and guess who that is....yup, oil companies, the auto industry and the ones who have the most to lose if these sources ever reach the mainstream. I heard a statistic back in the Reagan era that that administration cut funding for research and deveolpment of solar energy by 80%, imagine if the govt dumped money into solar research like they dump into the space program? Thing is nobody can make a lot of $$$ off of the sun.
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 9:05:14 AM | It may be the guy is using resonance frequencies.
Most energy gets dissipated, because most energy comes in the form of e-m waves as photons, which interact as particles when in contact with atoms, and bounces off. If the energy is at the same frequency as the object itself moves at, the energy is "in tune" with the object, and so does not bounce off, but is instead absorbed. This is how microwave ovens work. They send e-m waves at the same resonance frequency as water, which is in the microwave band, so most of the energy is absorbed.
If the e-m waves are at the same frequency as the resonance frequency of hydrogen bonds in salt water there is every reason to suppose that nearly all of the energy will be absorbed by the bonds, and will break up the hydrogen from the salt water, leaving them to be collected.
See msg #11 by Jazzhead, as to why it won't make much of a difference on a commercial level at the moment.
But some bright spark might start selling a few salt-water engines on the internet, and then you could buy it and use it yourself. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/12/2007 11:32:15 AM | "shrug"...not the first time water has been used as a fuel...won't be the last.
Sure...big companies buy up ideas that would impede the market for their product. they bury this idea, and make sure it doesn't see the light of day...until it is needed. IF we come to the point where oil is no longer a viable fuel, why, lo and behold, some comapny comes out with the announcement that they've been working on an alternate for years, poured billions into R+D and came up with "THIS!" A cheap(er) fuel than what the current price of oil based fuel is. But until there is a REAL shortage of oil, we will never see these idea. Same with fuel efficiant motors, etc. Same with electricity made form sunpower.
As long as there is money to be made, we won't be seeing cheaper alternate resources being used.
Only the gov't can change this. Not the people. Not the corporations. ONly the gov't. If we damand they relieve the corporations of these prototype fuels, motors, idea, etc, they would be violating the law...copywrite laws, etc. But, they could bypass all that by "nationalizing" ALL ideas concerning fuel and efficiant motors and add-ons. Develope them and get them out to the general public. The corporations would fold their tents, withdraw from a country that was so forthright, and let that economy freefall into oblivion. Politicians would find their funding cut off. Tax revenues would plummet. Gov'ts cannot win an economic war with big business. They would lose, taking the public with them down the drain. | |
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Posted: 9/13/2007 3:54:39 AM | U seriously think the gov't will give up oil? Not in this lifetime .. oil gives them POWER! money .. excuses to do all kinds of crazy things ... I am sure there have even been other ways the gov't have discovered to harness energy .. but will any of those give then the same revenue as oil? Nope .. and as long as there is money to be made... | |
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Posted: 9/13/2007 5:29:49 PM | | ^^^let's change the word government to big corporations, who control the gov't....might be a tad closer to the truth.....which is out there...and getting further out there all the time! | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/13/2007 6:01:23 PM | This is definitely possible. I work in water treatment with Flozone Services in Tennessee. We use radio frequency and ozone to clean water. The frequencies agitate the water and the ozone acts as a cleaning agent to stabilize the water. That, in turn, allows us to control what particulate is in the water, and we can keep cooling towers from scaling or corroding over time.
The technology we're using is revolutionary. Fact of the matter is that today is the future. These new theories that are coming out are definitely possible, and can definitely be done. Power is already being generated by devices that ride waves in the ocean and use the motion to move generators. That's the closest we've ever been to perpetual energy, and I think it'll eventually used on a larger scale to power cities close to the shore of the ocean.
As far as the hydrogen goes, it's definitely possible. It's been theorized before that a frequency waves can tear through walls if enough energy is put into them. Assuming that what I read above was correct, and that the frequencies actually burn the oxygen off the hydrogen, the energy required to produce a wave strong enough to agitate the oxygen molecule to the point of ignition wouldn't be entirely too much. I don't know the equation off the top of my head, but I'm sure there is one for how much agitation it would take for an oxygen molecule to ignite. Given that formula, theoretically, you could agitate it enough to ignite it and destroy it leaving behind the hydrogen.
There are ponds in parts of the states that are covered with a rubber tarp so as to collect natural gases coming out of the water. The same principle could be applied here wherein a pool of salt water with radio frequency radiating through it was covered with the same rubber tarp so as to absorb the hydrogen as it rises.
I can see it, but I don't know if we could ever use this theory on a scale to provide a fuel source for the states, let alone the world. I'd assume that the combined efforts of our government and our scientists would probably produce a solution that was usable on such a scale that it could provide a fuel, but then we get back into the afore mentioned oil obsession with the governments and corporations in our world.
It's all a loop of babish that's really not even worth worrying about. Even if we could produce a fuel source that would eliminate fossil fuels, our government will never let us rely solely on something that's not as money-making as gasoline.
-Will | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/13/2007 6:16:47 PM |
I can see it, but I don't know if we could ever use this theory on a scale to provide a fuel source for the states, let alone the world.
I was watching the history channel tonight. The segment was about the first asphalt roads built.
Need I say more?
People seem to poo-poo 'new' or 'change' to their comfort zones, because they lack vision and appear to be conditioned that if it can't happen in a NY minute, it's no good. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/13/2007 6:18:26 PM | That would be great if it worked and IF it can be kept out of the hands of the oil companies. Battery patent's for the best rechargable batteries used in GM's electric cars in California were sold by the Auto makers TO THE OIL COMPANIES ... contributing to the demise of the electric car.
Y'all don't think that the Oil companies are gonna let go of us as long as they still have oil in the ground to pump do ya?? Really do ya??? They'll find some way to purchase this from the inventor or use legal action to ever keep it from being developed into something useful until their damned good and ready. And governments will help them.
That's my rant for the day. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/13/2007 6:45:00 PM | You may very well be right, big oil appears to have quite the influence with the Department of Energy (which is the great and powerful Wizard of Oz) all gifts to humanity, of this nature, must ultimately be brought before the Wizard.
But then again.. most water is privatized..
Big water
Big oil
Can live without oil, but can't live without water! | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/13/2007 11:13:35 PM | Lario et al...
My bad. For a second I forgot about the greedy corporations, oil companies, and the Bush (Nazi) regime. This may be the most promising thing yet, but the oil companies would never let us have it.
It also brought back memories of a story I read about 20 years ago. Back then, somebody (I believe it was in Germany) invented a lightweight gasoline engine very cheaply. Instead of metal, this was made mostly out of very hard plastics if I remember correctly. It was even easy for the owner to take out and replace by HIMSELF. It got about 58 mpg. The inventor stuck it into an old beat-up VW Rabbit and tooled around Europe having the time of his life !
Well, what happened ? GM paid him $ 1,000,000 and shut his behind up in a HURRY. Yup, unfortunately you're all right....... | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/14/2007 11:31:46 AM | Passing electrical current through brine, or salt water, can separate the gas`s and you can draw off hydrogen.
A company is currently testing a gas infusion valve ( being developed for waste water treatment) I helped co invent in that application right now. Have never heard about radio waves being used though, very interesting.
The big problem with my valve is the metalurgy involved. While it is able to do this more efficiently that a cell, less space , the best metals for conductance of electricity is also the worse as they are the most prone to galvanitic activity and vice versa , so long term use has its problems..
I do know that radio waves can be used to aerate, or add gas to water ( what my valve was designed to do). Since it has also been used to separate the gasses from a liquid, probably it can also be used to separate the gasses.
Radio waves is probably a viable theroy when I think about it. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/14/2007 1:34:38 PM | | There is also the idea of "re-inventing" something, and attempting to market it yourself. If/when sued for copywrite infringments, make a huge public to-do about it. Why is it NOT on the market then? YOu seemed to be making a buck off it and it worked! Get it out into the public domain, and force the courts to open those "vaults of knowledge" that big corporations have their secrets locked up in. Make them develope it and put it on the market...or WE WILL! | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 9/15/2007 5:09:23 AM | You know, even though oil companies dont want new fuels developed, there are large corporations that do.
Car companies, like B.M.W partnering with Pro Drive, are putting big bucks into hydrogen technology. GE is also big on anything to do with water technology. Both of those companies and Maple Leaf Foods, have all been real suportive in giving us, a garage style operation (and budget ,lol), support and free consultation. Some companies do have a desire to be good "corporate citizens".
I have been plesantly surprised at the free consulting they have extended to us. They have a corporate belief that I subscribe to, that water will be the new oil in 25 years.
yna6 , there is a lot of work in developing technology, takes a lot of time now days especially. Companies are so scared to take risks with new technology.
One of the reasons is because patent laws are not followed, especially over seas in Japan and China. Japan does recognize intellectual properties and patents for their export market, but not at home. So they , instead of spending billions develpoing new ideas, wait till some one else does then spend their RD money improving , cash in when people rush to buy their products. .
China just ignores it altogether and no attempt is made .
Unfortunately, that slows new technology development down, as companies have to wait and perfect the technology before releasing it. Slows progress down a lot. | |
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| hydrogen/ salt water
Posted: 3/9/2008 8:50:19 PM | Daistailles-it was a ceramic engine, not plastic ;) Close tho :)
Ya know, with all the New 30-35 mpg cars on the market, one would think we are doing wonderfully with oil conservation...yet the old 4cyl VW bugs often got 45-50 MPG...so we've really not been seeking true solutions to the Energy crisis...Why?? Because the energy crisis is Made Up...it's all just a way of lining pockets for the rich. OPEC just refused to boost oil production to help ease the US economic woes...they said they're already producing record amounts...why produce MORE and reduce THIER profits?? Further, we're sitting on greater reserves than OPEC has with our own oilfields...why aren't WE producing more??
And the car companies could EASILY produce 50+ MPG cars in four cyl versions without really having to work at it, but they won't because thier ties to Big Oil...and US consumers want Big Honking Horsepower!!! Even if they only average 45 MPH going to work & back...Nobody REALLY needs to go 140 MPH...so why build millions of cars that do so?? Because they SELL...because we are STUPID.
I drive a 4-banger to work every day, but on the weekend I have a Classic 1979 8-cyl 351 Ford Ranchero that can peel the tires down to the cord...why do we do this to ourselves?? Because it's FUN! | |
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Posted: 3/9/2008 8:52:55 PM | hrm...not only that but I owned a 1972 Plymouth Duster 318 8cyl that got 32 MPG due to the way the carb was set up...and that car got clocked at 145 in a 55 back in '86...expensive ticket that was  | |
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