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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 4:26:43 AM | Finally,someone made a thread for this.I was surprised that there wasn't any.
I think that this war is nonsensial.I know that the terorists killed so many people but in that stupid war nobody is going to win.
Someone told me that Nostradamus(I'm not sure whether the spelling is right) foretold that in the 21st century there is going to be The Third World War-between the religions.Are we going to live this through?
Why is it necessity for the Americans to retaliate to the Muslims?Is it everything because of the oil?
I'd be glad to read different opinions. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 6:06:57 AM | | I know what you mean. I live in the middle east, Saudi Arabia. I have live al-jazeera and other arab tv stations in here. I channel surf and though i do not understand what is being said the pictures in there say more than enough about how worst things have become. America had it coming for going to iraq in the first place. These people do not see a liberator in America, they see a proud colonial power extending its authority over the middle east and its oil. I supposed to them it is better to be oppressed by one of their own than an invading foreign power. The irony of the whole situation is that the factions that used to oppose eachother before now united to fight the americans. It is unlikely the iraquis will conceed. The olny solution is to leave otherwise, iraq will be another vietnam. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 6:57:02 PM | | Actually, Medstudent and I started into this topic. I think the thread was "Just a thought" | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 7:42:12 PM | | War has been going on in that part of the world since it was first populated. It'll continue to rage there until it isn't populated anymore. It's that simple. What this world needs is an enema... | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 7:45:01 PM | | That is absolutely true. It's also why I laugh my ass off every time someone mentions the works "Middle East peace talks" | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/22/2004 10:04:05 PM | You may be correct about that one, that is, if your refering to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Iraq issue is an all two different matter. Unlike the Palestinan conflict, the Iraqui war has a solution. It is all a matter of foreign policy and an issue of respecting the sovereignty of others. The law of nations dictate that states should be equal among themselves--thus, no other country may exert it's force upon an equal. That clearly isn't the case with the Iraqui conflict. We are not even discussing a war here--we speak of an invation of a lowly mid-eastern state by a giant under the banner of an 'anti-terroristic' campaign. Saddam has been captured, bhagdad has fallen. People there have no electricity, no water or food to eat. They barely manage to live their lives the way they used to. All they want is their peace and freedom from their so called 'liberators'. It is not an issue of religion. Muslims do not hate those who do not believe in their Allah. They hate those who mock them and look down on them; those who impose on them their will and force them to change to adopt. They have their own beliefs and their own culture--what they wish to do to themselves and their country should be left to their own discression. They should not be taught how to live or run their own affairs.
The allies have fulfilled what they aimed to do in Iraq, now why are they still there? The clamor for them to leave is clear, why stay? Why force iraq to install a government subservient to the west's will when clearly this is unlikely? The answer to the Iraqui question is clear, Bush need only heed what he is adviced. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/23/2004 12:47:29 AM | I think this whole mess is absolutely ridiculous... Of course it was not right for them to attack on September 11th, especially considering they are fighting against battles that go so far back that it becomes hard to remember what this is about in the first place...
The thing that needs to be understood though is that a lot of the countries over there have nothing to lose... and it is not America's place to be going over there to supposedly 'fix things' like they said they would, not to mention that they really aren't fixing anything...
Its hard to base an opinion on this topic because I know that we dont know the half of what's going on over there... the media likes to contort things, and they only let us know what they want us to know...
That aside, as far as I'm concerned, these people need to start being adults and take care of the situation likewise... war like this is not going to fix things, and i am rapidly losing hope... I would like to think that this will be over soon, however I don't see that happening any time in the near future, not to mention the lives that have already been lost, and will continue to be lost until that point comes, if it ever does...
I think it is horrible that the people that are running this world are willing to put innocent lives at risk over issues that have nothing to do with us... The best we can do is to live our own lives to the fullest while we can, because in all honesty... there's not telling when it might be over... weapons of 'mass destruction' are still out there... and it doesn't take very much to send out that bomb... its horrible to think of, but we all know its true... The saying to live for the day because you never know what tomorrow holds is truer now more than ever... Its a tragic situation this world has gotten itself in to, but it is beyond our control and we must make the most of it for ourselves... :( | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/23/2004 7:54:05 AM | TARVEL, why do you think that 'it is beyond our control'?If all the people in the world join hands they could put an end to this absurd situation.But,I know,it is almost impossible to do this becuase everyone has his own aim.
Why do we have to fight for lost causes? | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/23/2004 7:36:07 PM | Iraq had nothing to do with September 11, 2001. They apparently don't have weapons of mass destruction. We have been over their for more than a year and have "found" one missle that was destroyed before anybody could verify what poison it contained. Hell, I live in West Virginia and more weapons have been found here than Iraq. This war is about George W. Bush getting revenge for his daddy. If you look, most of his appointed government posts are full of his father's cronies. The other reasons are oil and mass delusion of the world's populace that he is really in control and leading a great democracy(the U.S. is not a democracy, it is a republic)
There will never be peace until all of the great weapons(biological, chemical, and nuclear)
are used in one worldwide war that kills of at least half of the world's population and contaminates all of the land. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/23/2004 9:08:55 PM | I kinda agree with you birdman...GWB getting revenge for his dad is the main reason. There will never be true peace in this world as long as money rules. It truly is the root of all evil.
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/24/2004 2:44:08 PM | To answer the rhetorical question, it almost certainly has to get a lot worse before it's going to get better. As soon as we pull out, no matter who we leave behind in power, there's going to be a huge civil war. Anyone who thinks that Democracy is going to just sprout out of the ground and flourish because we say so hasn't been paying attention to the origins of any great democracy.
What surprises me is how ignorant the general public is on Iraq issues.
The general public thinks Iraq was related to 9/11 and the war on terrorism. They weren't.
The general public thinks Iraq had ties to Al Qaida, in fact Osama Bin Laden called Hussein a traitor to the Islamic faith and demanded he be removed. (Iraq may have been a ruthless military dictatorship, but it wasn't a fundamentalist Islamic country in the same way Afghanistan was/will be again and Iran is.)
The general public thinks that we found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. We haven't. There were canisters of "blister agent" which turned out to be pesticide. Then there were the "mobile biological weapons labs" that turned out to be hydrogen production facilities sold to Iraq in the late 80s by Britain. Lately there were 6 empty mustard gas canisters and a rusted out sarin shell that didn't detonate properly, all leftovers from the war with Iran. What happened to the 1,000,000 pounds of chemical weapons that we were told "we know they have them and we know where they are"? Not to be found apparently, at least not this far away from the election they aren't. Look for a sudden "discovery" in late October.
The general public thinks that the troops are over there "defending our freedom!" when in fact Iraq never directly threatened us and in fact had no capacity to pose a credible threat.
The general public thinks North Korea is less of a threat than Iraq.
- Jordan
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/24/2004 7:17:26 PM | | North Korea is not much of a threat now, the U.S. found that they can pay them off. That is the same crap that we will deal with for many years to come. The government never learns anything from the past, so they repeat it ad nauseum. Weapons to Iran, money to any country that raises its fists, it never ends. Hell, if they would have found weapons of mass destruction, they would have came from us or our new buddy- Russia. | |
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kcrich
| | Joined: 4/28/2004
Msg: 14 | |
| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/24/2004 10:46:20 PM | For anybody who thinks this "war on terrorism" isn't about oil I found this newswire from a Pakistani news organization after the US invaded Afghanistan:
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Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation
0800 English
Seotember 17, 2002
MEETING:
A three day meeting of Pakistan, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan on oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to Pakistan began in Kabul yesterday.
A Steering Committee would review the project and take decisions to materialize it in the near future.
The Petroleum Minister Mr.Usman Aminuddin is representing Pakistan at the meeting.
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Before 911 the Taliban in Afghanistan had no interest in building a pipeline in their country despite the Bush Administration sending the Taliban monetary aid (I guess Taliban were good guys then).
If this pipeline does get built and goes into Pakistan and then on into China and India, two of the world's largest manufacturers (thanx to corporate sponsored US trade policies) that don't have large fuel reserves of their own; whoever gets in on the ground floor of that project, should it succeed, stands to make trillions.
Most wars tend to be economic.
I see 911 as a modern-day sinking of the Lusitania.
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OTTERS
| | Joined: 1/19/2004
Msg: 15 | |
| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/25/2004 5:43:09 PM | a very plaudible point kcich,and whilst i agree with you to an extent,i carnt help but feel that no matter how much wealth in oil/gas irag and even afghanistan posesses,the ultimate cost of this war will far outweigh that of all the natural resources in the middle east combined.
was it because of iraqs wealth in oil/gas...was it because the allies truely believed that iraq posessed wmd,s.....was it dubbya attempting to succede where his father failed...was it a knee jerk reaction to the infamous events of 9/11...i dont think the true reason for this conflict will ever be known.one thing is certain saddam needed to be removed from power,the attrocities he commited against the kurds where horrendous and barbaric.....shouldnt we be questioning why this known mass murderering war mongerer was allowed to remain in control after the 1st gulf war...maybe there was some kind of underhand deal made with the allies<..britain/us/france etc..>.its disturbing to imagine that all this could have been prevented if it hadnt been for the greed of the leading nations goverments at the time...maybe money does make the world go around.. | |
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kcrich
| | Joined: 4/28/2004
Msg: 17 | |
| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/25/2004 8:19:32 PM | Everybody talks about how bad Saddam was...
What about China and Tienamen Square? And how they've treated their people over the years? And how they threatened Taiwan with invasion if they dare declare independence? Remember back during the Clinton Administration when China threatened to lob a missile on our west coast? Why don't the US go after them like they do Afghanistan and Iraq? Because the multi-national corporations are making a fortune off of the slave labor in china. They weren't getting that in Afghanistan or Iraq. When one boils it down it's all about power, money and control. Hell, here in the town I live in the politics are all about money. If one multiplies that by County, state, national and global level one can only imagine how money and power-driven it is on a global level.
As bad as Saddam was Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe is far worse. There are dictators all over the world with horrendous human rights records. But not all of them have a strategic oil supply or other such economic advantages. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/25/2004 8:27:56 PM | Once again, history repeats itself. We go after one barbarian and make friends and do business with some of the others. We do it now and did it for another war in the past. We entered a war to stop Hitler. Thanks to our properly trained troops, we suceeded. But the powers that be looked the other way at what Stalin was doing. Everybody knows that Hitler slaughtered people that were jewish, gypsies, and also his enemies in time of war. Stalin killed people that he didn't like and their families. He also took out anybody who could replace him. Reminds me of today- go after one but not the real monsters. It doesn't make sense.
But why does the U.S. have to clense the world anyway. We have too much to fix here before we fix the world! | |
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kcrich
| | Joined: 4/28/2004
Msg: 19 | |
| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/25/2004 11:34:10 PM | Like Eisenhower said in his farewell speech after his last term as president, beware of the military/industrial complex.
He oughtta know. He had been both a general and a president. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/26/2004 9:29:44 AM | | Yep, Eisenhower was a good president. We could use someone like him in the upcoming election. | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/29/2004 6:59:06 AM | | If the media and congress were doing their jobs, Bush would be impeached by now. While they jumped to condemn Clinton (not a fan of him, either) for lying about sex under oath, they give Bush a free pass after he manipulated and misled the American public into an unecessary war based on phony justifications and unreliable "intelligence". If this was a war about bringing democracy to Iraq, why has the administration denied Ayatollah al-Sistani's call for immediate elections? Simple answer: a popularly-elected government in Iraq might not support the privatization schemes and "free" market policies that are now being implemented without the mandate of the Iraqi people. What if an elected government chose to nationalize Iraq's oil supply? History shows what would happen. In the 1950s, Iran's elected Prime Minister Mossadegh, a nationalist, decided that it was in the best interest of the Iranian people to nationalize the oil industry. The Americans and the Brits orchestrated a coup in 1953 to overthrow Mossadegh and put into power the violent, repressive Shah regime. Although the Shah government brutalized its own people, they were sympathetic to U.S. oil interests. No one in the Middle East (or pretty much anywhere else, for that matter) takes Bush seriously when he talks about "bringing democracy to the region"; just look at his close, supportive relationship with the anti-democratic Saudi Arabian royal family. Bush is simply taking a page out of Woodrow Wilson's playbook: mask your imperialist policies in the rhetoric of "democracy" and "humanitarianism." | |
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kcrich
| | Joined: 4/28/2004
Msg: 23 | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 5/29/2004 10:55:42 AM | | Congress would not be able to impeach him. The white house crew would just twist some little stutute in the patriot act to declare Bush the sumpreme leader. That or the republicans would just vote in favor of their fellow moron(not that the democrats are any different) | |
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| Re: Iraq - What a mess...
Posted: 6/1/2004 11:55:16 AM | The problem with impeachment is that before you even get that far it has to get past the House Judicial Committee. At this point this body is 2/3rds Republican. So fat chance that we'll even get the chance to impeach Bush.
- Jordan | |
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