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 alexa61
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 1
Close encounters with the disordered kindPage 1 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
Just curious to know how many ladies here have had relationships with men that you later came to realize were mentally ill or disordered. I am specifically interested to know about men that are sociopaths or have narcissistic personality disorder, which may or may not include sex addiction. Did you have knowledge of these disorders prior to meeting these men? What clued you in to thier disorders? How long did your relationship last?
 aNgeLiCbLoNdiE
Joined: 9/7/2006
Msg: 2
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/22/2007 6:57:43 PM
Just curious to know how many ladies here have had relationships with men that you later came to realize were mentally ill or disordered. I am specifically interested to know about men that are sociopaths or have narcissistic personality disorder, which may or may not include sex addiction. Did you have knowledge of these disorders prior to meeting these men? What clued you in to thier disorders? How long did your relationship last?


Ex hubby was violent, an ex bf ended up being a stalker, a few liars from online (smoked 'em out fast!) & one I believe to be a sex addict. Very selfish man! If I write what clued me in, the post would get deleted. Another one seemed very narcissistic & infantile. Again if I tell...a few of them are in this site, ladies...beware.

I am sure there are females as well who lie, are narcissists & sex addicts too. I bet they get all the dates, LOL!
 esad
Joined: 4/8/2007
Msg: 3
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History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/22/2007 8:23:20 PM

If I write what clued me in, the post would get deleted. Another one seemed very narcissistic & infantile. Again if I tell...a few of them are in this site, ladies...beware.

I hate when someone tells half a story! Take a risk. Edit a bit. Be imaganative.
Spell creatively.
 Oregondaisy
Joined: 6/15/2007
Msg: 4
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/22/2007 8:30:00 PM
I agree. Inquiring minds want to know! There has to be a way to give us a few details.

 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 5
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History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/22/2007 8:56:21 PM
For those who haven't read the definition of a sociopath, please do a seach on it. I was amazed by what I learned. Two people from my past who kept me (and themselves) totally confused fix the profile of a sociopath completely. One was a man, and the other a women. A few years ago I saw a report that calculated that there was 800,000 cases in Canada. That has to mean the probably triple that number exist. I can't decide who I feel for the most. Those who suffer being that way, or those who try to love someone who is a sociopath.
 Bethlet
Joined: 4/22/2007
Msg: 6
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/22/2007 9:04:52 PM
Sociopathic AND narcissistic (the two often go hand in hand). No, I was not familiar with the issues prior to this relationship.

The clues were the total lack of logic and the ability to lie like a mofo without any feeling of regret when caught red handed.

2 years. One year to figure out the problem....another year to extricate myself financially.
 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 7
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History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 5:08:32 AM
Sociopaths are extremely rare, It's a character disorder with the characteristic of having no emotions or concern for others. The term is misused allot to define someone displaying extreme inappropriate anger (an emotion). I doubt if anyone truly has dated or personally knows a sociopath.


narcissistic- excessive or erotic interest in oneself and one's physical appearance. • Psychology extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

Here's some narcissistic statements I see all to often:

I deserve the best. I'm worth it.
They would be lucky to date me.
I'm perfectly happy the way I am. (it's you that makes me not)
I won't settle for less.
I have high values.

You need to change
We are all here for the same thing.
Men are... (fill in blank)
Women are... (fill in blank)
Why me?

Narcissism is sort of normal for teenagers and most grow out of it.
To get involved with a narcissist, one must fundamentally take on the narcissist's beliefs and attitudes, essentially becoming a narcissist themselves. Over time the relationship deteriorates because one decides the other is not giving what is "deserved" and then you got 2 narcissists claiming the other is not fulfilling me as I should be and then displaying their own irritations from the other not complying.

Complaining about narcissism seems inappropriate when you have to display your own narcissistic tendencies to do it.
 aNgeLiCbLoNdiE
Joined: 9/7/2006
Msg: 8
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 5:26:05 AM
I'd never bash my ex husband who also is the father of my kids & has paid support & had visitation over the years & also has worked on himself & made improvements in himself in a forum or anyplace else. I did LOVE him once & a small part of me will always love him.

I did date a scientist who, IMO, had a huge ego thing about his research. Seemed more concerned w/ getting his NAME & PAPERS PUBLISHED than the TRUTH! SCAAAAARY! He was the one who dumped me when he thought I had cancer.

The sex addict...every person in his life was assessed by sex & sex ONLY. I can see a highly sexed person putting importance on sex, but as PART of the equation, not the WHOLE EQUATION.

There are people who make statements in the forum in jest, or teasing, but who in real life are quite serious & responsible

The stalker....not enough time & space to write about here...hang up calls for years, had to contact the phone company & have them set up an investigation...the whole thing was sick, sick, sick & at the beginning I did NOT see it...this is just the tip of the iceberg. Oftentimes these people have good careers, this one was management in a METROpolitan company in the NORTH of the city

Many of these people are quite charming initially, the veneer wears through pretty fast, especially when challenged.

The sex addict dumped one woman in this site, said she was no good in bed, used another because she gave backdoor, even though he claimed she was violent & psychotic (no amount of sex is worth that)- I found all of this out a tad bit too late. I dumped him when I saw how selfish he was, not just when it came to sex, but in all other areas of his life. He also was rude at the end & never took responsibility for his own behaviors. People like him are the reason why we need to be careful of WHO we sleep with & when we do, be sure to practice safe sex

I am not saying I am any better than any of these people, we are all human, but I think I take more responsibilty for my behavior & try to be honest in my motives
 Arugula
Joined: 11/5/2006
Msg: 9
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 5:29:10 AM
Ah...one of the negatives (in my opinion) of the internet. Anyone has easy access to descriptions of all physical and mental disorders. The fact of the matter is that most of us have "some" of the traits that psychopaths and narcissists have. It's normal. And attempting to diagnose someone else as being mentally ill says more about you than it does about them. Try to understand yourself....not others.
 rossal
Joined: 12/5/2005
Msg: 10
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 6:49:31 AM
My "ex" was a narcissist, personality disordered, with some elements of socio--and psychopathy.....I spent over half of my life trying to figure out the "ex"...the abuser. The research I did (also with the assistance of a therapist).....gave me the answer.

He was verbally abusive and physically abusive.

It took me find the book that saved my life to have the knowledge that I needed to escape the insanity/toxicity. The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans.

I believe this is a book which should be required reading for everyone on the planet. Verbal abusive is rampant; rarely noticed nor understood.

Unfortunately, I am an "expert."
 MacKevinized
Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 11
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History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 6:55:04 AM

The fact of the matter is that most of us have "some" of the traits that psychopaths and narcissists have. It's normal. And attempting to diagnose someone else as being mentally ill says more about you than it does about them. Try to understand yourself....not others.


Well.. I say this is mostly true and very good advise. I think when you work at understanding yourself, you understand others better.

It doesn't mean you'll like what you understand, you may find out that why you can't get a date is because you have been blaming everyone else for your own narcissism. You may find that your own (superior) feelings and associated behaviors is what caused the breakdown of your relationships.
 *tinydancer*
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 12
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 7:46:17 AM
I've only ever had one encounter with a guy who was bi-polar. I dated him for a couple of weeks before I started noticing weirdness and the roller coaster emotions. My daughter has a degree in Psychology and I told her about his behavior. She then told me it sounded like bi-polar disorder. After we quit dating, he told me he'd been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. Go figure.
 Schadenfreudian
Joined: 7/5/2007
Msg: 13
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 7:57:54 AM

Just curious to know how many ladies here have had relationships with men that you later came to realize were mentally ill or disordered.
WHEW! I initially thought it was "disordered" as in sloppy...however, a disorderly disorder is probably preferable to a bona fide disorder.

Maybe you could look on the bright side of sociopathic and narcissistic disorders--I'd have to say that a large majority of high-ranking executives and CEOs and many, many Congresspeople make hay on these disorders...for, imo, if you can't be a heartless sociopath, you are NOT going to go anywhere in business or government.
 BeerShark
Joined: 10/5/2006
Msg: 14
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 10:28:06 AM
I have always beleived my ex was a sociopath, well since the divorce anyway. It wasn't a matter of not having or showing emotion, but using them to control people. There is no remorse or regret if they get caught in their lies and schemes, only anger. Anger at having controll taken away. I used to say the one thing I could do to my ex that was worse than telling her she was wrong, was proving it to her. She also would do things to try and make me think I was crazy. She would deny that conversations ever took place, or invent those that never occured. She would move or hide things on me. I haven't misplaced my keys in years. She would take money out of my wallet then start a huge fight about me having lost it or spent it. What at first appeared to be a lack of discrestion, impolite, or inappropriate comments, turned out to be ways of controlling others. There were also issues of financial control, and who I was ALLOWED to be friends with. She was actually taught by her mother that men were to be controled, kept under her thumb. That overall they were stupid and their judgment could not be trusted. She even tried to teach my children that crap.
She is now a socialworker. Scarry isn't it.
 bearwoman1959
Joined: 8/25/2006
Msg: 15
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 11:18:52 AM
There's a lot of folks out there who think they're God's gift to the dating world, when they should really be in counseling and on medication. I've dated a few, one who's on POF now and just put me on his favorite's list, ugh. He's weird sexually to, too bad I can't name names. These crazy types can suck you in with words and actions at first. They have game, but after you get to know them better, the devil in them starts showing itself. I know I'm damaged goods and I'm not trying to date again until I get REALLY lonely. Hasn't happened yet in over a year, and I don't foresee that changing anytime soon. It's not always the homeless person talking to themselves on the street corner who are the craziest. The crazies walk among us, beware!!!
 lalani
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 16
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History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 11:31:05 AM
There are the USERS and the USED and the weird way , with time , that it can flip and really become very grey. When or best IF I ever take the time to reopen that "baggage" I hoped to leave by the side of life's path. I can only be fair and look at my part in it all. When I read a thread like this, ...... I will maybe open that baggage to see if I have any wisdom to share. I have learned from what I see in there but everybody's storys are different. There is no black or white here. And for those of you who have lived this thread in any way,......... you know what I mean. I'll private chat or e-mail anyone who wants too.
 Arugula
Joined: 11/5/2006
Msg: 17
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 11:33:25 AM

It doesn't mean you'll like what you understand, you may find out that why you can't get a date is because you have been blaming everyone else for your own narcissism. You may find that your own (superior) feelings and associated behaviors is what caused the breakdown of your relationships.


Good point. But how many people actually take the time to look inward when it's so much easier, and so much less painful, to look outward...to pick up every negative trait of those around us and analyze it? In the end, it doesn't really matter what (if anything) was wrong with past partners or friends. What matters should be how we observe our part in the dance, and how we learn from it and behave in the future..
 Chocolatebrowne
Joined: 1/19/2006
Msg: 18
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 11:37:05 AM
I had a relationship with a gentleman who was "clinically ill", as I later found out (he had had one very dysfunctional relationship with another woman, stalked a woman so badly because of his delusions that she left our state, and had been asked to resign from a job because of his delusions of persecution).

I have a strong background in mental health, and yes, I knew in the back of my mind that "something wasn't right", but I thought if just showed him "another way", that it would work out.....

It doesn't.....mental illnesses cannot be "cured" by love, "showing people a different way", or any of that rot......because most mentally ill people don't believe they're ill, and it's the rest of the world that is wrong. You can hang in (like I did) these relationships if you wish, but they don't get any better.
 lalani
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 19
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History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 3:13:05 PM
Chocolate, You are so very very right with this . Again , sometimes people need to learn the "hard" way. Sometimes people can give way too much love and understanding and wonder why its happening to them so much. And seems to repeat in their lives. Like there is a LIGHT pointing the way to them. You know what I mean???
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 20
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Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 3:43:16 PM

Maybe you could look on the bright side of sociopathic and narcissistic disorders--I'd have to say that a large majority of high-ranking executives and CEOs and many, many Congresspeople make hay on these disorders...for, imo, if you can't be a heartless sociopath, you are NOT going to go anywhere in business or government.

Regrettably, what schadenfreudian says is getting pretty close to the truth about business and government these days...

What one person calls "narcissistic" another might see as strong self esteem...perhaps we should all be careful what labels we cast on others UNLESS we possess the education, credentials and licensure to make such statements?
Cindy O
 alexa61
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 21
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 3:50:44 PM
FYI

The Twenty Traits of Malignant Narcissism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR is skillfully deceptive and very convincing. Avoids accountability by diverting topics, dodging questions, and making up new lies, bluffs or threats when questioned. His memory is self serving as he denies past statements. Constant chaos and diverting from reality is their chosen environment.
Defense Strategy: Verify his words. Do not reveal anything about yourself - he'll use it against you. Head for the door when things don't add up. Don't ask him questions - you'll only be inviting more lies.

2. THE CONTRACT BREAKER agrees to anything then turns around and does the opposite. Marriage, Legal, Custody agreements, normal social/personal protocol are meaningless. This con artist will accuse you of being the contract breaker. Enjoys orchestrating legal action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim.
Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard any agreement. Have Plan B in place. Protect yourself financially and emotionally.

3. THE HIGH ROLLER Successfully plows and backstabs his way to the top. His family a disposable prop in his success facade. Is charismatic, eloquent and intelligent in his field, but often fakes abilities and credentials. Needs to have iron-fisted control, relying on his manipulation skills. Will ruthlessly support, exploit or target others in pursuit of his ever-changing agenda. Mercilessly abuses the power of his position. Uses treachery or terrorism to rule or govern. Potential problem or failure situations are delegated to others. A vindictive bully in the office with no social or personal conscience. Often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own Mephistophelian objectives, but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Disappears quickly when consequences loom.
Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation. Be on the lookout and spot them running for office and vote them out. Educate yourself about corporate bullies

4. THE SEXUAL NARCISSIST is often hypersexual (male or female). Pornography, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anything, anyone, young, old, male/female, are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Often easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. However, another behaviour exists, the one who withholds sex or emotional support.
Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own.

5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures and circumstances. A master at projection.
Defense Strategy: Learn about projection. Don't take the bait when he blames you. He made the mess let him clean it up.

6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater, Murderer, Serial Killer, Stalker, Terrorist. Has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. He lashes out and destroys or uses others (particularly women and children) as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment, imagines rejection and will reject first to 'get it over with'. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
Defense Strategy: Don't antagonize or tip your hand you're leaving. Ask for help from the police and shelters.

7. THE CONTROLLER/MANIPULATOR pits people against each other. Keeps his allies and targets separated. Is verbally skillful at twisting words and actions. Is charismatic and usually gets his way. Often undermines our support network and discourages us from seeing our family and friends. Money is often his objective. Other people's money is even better. He is ruthless, demanding and cruel. This control-freak bully wants you pregnant, isolated and financially dependent on him. Appears pitiful, confused and in need of help. We rush in to help him with our finances, assets, and talents. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others on his behalf as he sets us up to take the fall or enjoys the performance he is directing.
Defense Strategy: Know the 'nature of the beast'. Facing his failure and consequences will be his best lesson. Be suspicious of his motives, and avoid involvement. Don't bail him out.

8. THE SUBSTANCE ABUSER Alcohol, drugs, you name it, this N does it. We see his over-indulgence in food, exercise or sex and his need for instant gratification. Will want you to do likewise.
Defense Strategy: Don't sink to his level. Say No.

9. OUR "SOUL MATE" is cunning and knows who to select and who to avoid. He will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. His discarded victims suffer emotional and financial devastation. He will very much enjoy the double-dipping attention he gets by cheating. We end the relationship and salvage what we can, or we are discarded quickly as he attaches to a "new perfect soul mate". He is an opportunistic parasite. Our "Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare. Our healing is lengthy.
Defense Strategy: Seek therapy. Learn about this disorder. Know the red flags of their behaviour, and "If he seems too good to be true..." Hide the hurt you feel. Never let him see it. Be watchful for the internet predator.

10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn, often dirty, unkempt. Odd thinking is observed. Used as a disguise to appear pitiful to obtain whatever he can,

11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty. His enjoyment is all too obvious. He'll be back for more. His pleasure is in getting away with taking other people's assets. His target: women, children, the elderly, anyone vulnerabie.
Defense Strategy: Accept the Jekyll/Hyde reality. Make a "No Contact' rule. Avoid him altogether. End any avenue of vulnerability. Don't allow thoughts of his past 'good guy' image to lessen the reality of his disorder.

12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Defense Strategy: Manage your responses. Be fully independent. Don't take the bait of his verbal abuse. Expect emotional hurt. Volence is possible.

13. THE BRAINWASHER is very charismatic. He is able to manipulate others to obtain status, control, compliance, money, attention. Often found in religion and politics. He masterfully targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak.
Defense Strategy. Learn about brainwashing techniques. Listen to your gut instinct. Avoid them.

14. THE RISK-TAKING THRILL-SEEKER never learns from his past follies and bad judgment. Poor impulse control is a hallmark.
Defense Strategy: Don't get involved. Use your own good judgement. Say No.

15. THE PARANOID NARCISSIST is suspicious of everything usually for no reason. Terrified of exposure and may be dangerous if threatened. Suddenly ends relationships if he anticipates exposure or abandonment.
Defense Strategy: Give him no reason to be suspicious of you. Let some things slide. Protect yourself if you anticipate violence.

16. THE IMAGE MAKER will flaunt his 'toys', his children, his wife, his credentials and accomplishments. Admiration, attention, even glances from others, our envy or our fear are his objective. He is never satisfied. We see his arrogance and haughty strut as he demands center stage. He will alter his mask at will to appear pitiful, inept, solicitous, concerned, or haughty and superior. Appears the the perfect father, husband, friend - to those outside his home.
Defense Strategy: Ignore his childlike behaviours. Know his payoff is getting attention, deceiving or abusing others. Provide him with 'supply' to avert problems.

17. THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM is the cruellest blow of all. We learn his lack of empathy. He has deceived us by his cunning ability to mimic human emotions. We are left numbed by the realization. It is incomprehensible and painful. We now remember times we saw his cold vacant eyes and when he showed odd reactions. Those closest to him become objectified and expendable.
Defense Strategy: Face the reality. They can deceive trained professionals.

18. THE SAINTLY NARCISSIST proclaims high moral standing. Accuses others of immorality. "Hang 'em high" he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite lies, cheats, schemes, corrupts, abuses, deceives, controls, manipulates and torments while portraying himself of high morals.
Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Be suspicious of people claiming high morals. Can be spotted at a church near you.

19. THE CALLING-CARD NARCISSIST forewarns his targets. Early in the relationship he may 'slip up' revealing his nature saying "You need to protect yourself around me" or "Watch out, you never know what I'm up to." We laugh along with him and misinterpret his words. Years later, coping with the devastation left behind, his victims recall the chilling warning.
Defense Strategy: Know the red flags and be suspicious of the intentions of others.

20. THE PENITENT NARCISSIST says "I've behaved horribly, I'll change, I love you, I'll go for therapy." Appears to 'come clean' admitting past abuse and asking forgiveness. Claims we are at fault and need to change too. The sincerity of his words and actions appear convincing. We learn his words are verbal hooks. He knows our vulnerabilities and what buttons to push. We question our judgement about his disorder. We can disregard "Fool me once..." We hope for change and minimize past abuse. With a successful retargeting attempt, this N will enjoy his second reign of terror even more if we allow him back in our lives.
Defense Strategy: Expect this. Self-impose a "No Contact" rule. Focus on the reality of his disorder. Journal past abusive behavior to remind yourself. Join a support group

Enjoy life free of the Narcissist!!
The male gender is used. Your abuser may well be female.
 Muskoka Gold
Joined: 7/6/2007
Msg: 22
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 4:36:25 PM
WOW.........The last man I met was a #18 for sure and possibly a # 19. He had to go to Church before meeting me for a date.................and later made accusations about my morals ( called me a prostitute?????) I don't even know where that came from? He said I was dysfunctional, in need of.......well you know the list goes on. I wonder if he went to Confession afterwards to atone........so that he felt reconciled to go do it again, to some other unsuspecting woman?
Thanks for the list Alexa. I will definitely be printing it off and hanging it on my fridge.
No wonder that I don't want to on-line date. It's hard to pick up these signals through the written word and phone calls.

Muskoka
 FineDay
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 23
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 4:42:17 PM
[The fact of the matter is that most of us have "some" of the traits that psychopaths and narcissists have. It's normal. And attempting to diagnose someone else as being mentally ill says more about you than it does about them.]

Although I agree that it's probably not wise to attempt to "diagnose someone else", it's only logical and appropriate to be cautious in dealing with people you meet on the internet and who, therefore, have nobody you trust to "vouch" for their character. The fact is there ARE some very clear and specific warning signs regarding how likely any given person is to demonstrate violent behavior, poor impulse control, etc. You don't need a "diagnosis" to be dangerous....
 Artz
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 24
view profile
History
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 5:14:25 PM
Thank you for your post Fineday.
 BeerShark
Joined: 10/5/2006
Msg: 25
Close encounters with the disordered kind
Posted: 10/23/2007 10:17:10 PM
Your little disclaimer at the end of your list Twenty Traits does little to curb the offesiveness of tagging the male gender to start with. If I have read them correctly, traits 5,7,13,and 20 would apply.
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