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| | Do you really support our troops?Page 1 of 11 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) | http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-07-homeless-veterans_N.htm
I think we should support them as long as they need it. Not just the ones serving now, but the ones that have served and need our help now. These people have put their very existence on the line for a government that wants to take away their benefits and services when their tour is up. This is so sick and disgusting on so many levels, yet there is hardly any outcry from the public. What the hell is going on here?!  | |
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Hoop
| | Joined: 5/1/2006 Msg: 2 | |
| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 3:41:52 AM | They need to stand up, arrest and take all the actors in the white house and congress over to Guantanamo. I think they are aware that they have the people's support in that. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 4:12:43 AM | | Why should I??? They get plenty of support from our politicians and government sponsored programs. They also earn a big paycheck, and other extra duty pay as well. Remember, there is no current DRAFT going on... and the armed forces are all - volunteer...... President BUSH'S ECONOMIC RECOVERY PROGRAM.........WAR!!!!!!!----- i will feel sorry for them, when the WAR is finally over, and they all come back to see their jobs that have been doing strange dissappearing acts to third world countries.... My son got out of the Army last year, and gee!!! he is an assistant manager at a gas station. Isn't that exciting??? At least, he is out of Baghdad, no missing parts, and alive. YEAAA AMERICA....... now about the economic recovery, thats another story. How much are we paying at those gas pumps now??????????? | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 6:33:02 AM | I think we share a responsibility to our troops, to protect them as they protect us.
That cause isn't served by cheering as they go off to war, or applauding them on some day dedicated to vets.
We all have an obligation to make sure they are given what they need to do the job, given proper equipment and numbers, given a clear goal and an exit strategy BEFORE the first bullet is ever fired in anger.
Then you stand back and let them do their job, and make sure that if they are injured (physically or psychologically) by their experiences they are taken care of in the BEST possible fashion.
General Patton once said :
“Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.”
The politicians are there to make the decision to go to war. They tell the military what must be accomplished, and then the military tells them what is needed to do the job, and how long that can be expected to take, and what the potential casualties are estimated to be.
In Iraq, all the war gaming and planning and estimates of troops needed were ignored. None of the things that occurred there are surprises, they were all foreseen and warned about. This is what the military does, and they know what they are doing.
Just Google "Desert Crossing" :
Post-Saddam Iraq: The War Game
"Desert Crossing" 1999 Assumed 400,000 Troops and Still a Mess
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 207
The results of Desert Crossing, however, drew pessimistic conclusions regarding the immediate possible outcomes of such action. Some of these conclusions are interestingly similar to the events which actually occurred after Saddam was overthrown. (Note 1) The report forewarned that regime change may cause regional instability by opening the doors to "rival forces bidding for power" which, in turn, could cause societal "fragmentation along religious and/or ethnic lines" and antagonize "aggressive neighbors." Further, the report illuminated worries that secure borders and a restoration of civil order may not be enough to stabilize Iraq if the replacement government were perceived as weak, subservient to outside powers, or out of touch with other regional governments. An exit strategy, the report said, would also be complicated by differing visions for a post-Saddam Iraq among those involved in the conflict.
The Desert Crossing report was similarly pessimistic when discussing the nature of a new Iraqi government. If the U.S. were to establish a transitional government, it would likely encounter difficulty, some groups discussed, from a "period of widespread bloodshed in which various factions seek to eliminate their enemies." The report stressed that the creation of a democratic government in Iraq was not feasible, but a new pluralistic Iraqi government which included nationalist leaders might be possible, suggesting that nationalist leaders were a stabilizing force. Moreover, the report suggested that the U.S. role be one in which it would assist Middle Eastern governments in creating the transitional government for Iraq.
General Zinni, who retired in 2000 shortly after the completion of Desert Crossing, brought the report to the attention of the public after the war. Even before the invasion, he had made his opposition to an imminent war widely known. In a major address at the Middle East Institute in October 2002, he disputed the view that war was either inevitable or desirable. On the question of establishing a new government to replace Saddam Hussein, he said, "God help us if we think this transition will occur easily."
Zinni noted the parallels to what eventually happened after the invasion as well as to the lack of interest elsewhere in the U.S. government for tackling the problems of reconstruction:
The first meeting surfaced all the problems that have exactly happened now. This was 1999. And when I took it back and looked at it, I said, we need a plan. Not all of this is a military responsibility. I went back to State Department, to the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance, Department of Commerce and others and said, all right, how about you guys taking part of the plan. We need a plan in addition to the war plan for the reconstruction. Not interested. Would not look at it.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB207/index.htm
The invasion was launched into a blinding sandstorm.
Men were issued Vietnam era flak jackets.
Men in unarmored Humvees were about as protected as a civilian driving an SUV, in many cases when hostilities began - literally.
Large ammo and weapons caches were overlooked, even when found, as the rush to find non-existent WMD's was the main focus of the politicians. Those arms and munitions fell into the wrong hands , in many cases.
Most American troops had a limited understanding of cultural differences in Arab countries, because their generals did not consider such training important then. They acted as they would in a European country, and did things (without even realizing it ) that were seen as insulting.
The job they had to do after the end of the war, was a peacekeeping one. That requires highly specialized training, and also additional resources devoted to the task like reconstruction on the civilian side.
The result of the war was never in any doubt. The war was won quickly.
The peace was lost, however.
The politicians intervened, when they realized that number of troops was impossible politically to use. They sent in 300,000, when 400,000 wasn't even enough.
Then Bremer fired the entire Iraqi army, which essentially created the seeds for the insurgency. The army didn't even KNOW until it was done, and THAT was never planned for.
Garner and his top aides, including retired Gens. Jared Bates and Ron Adams, proposed paying 300,000 to 400,000 members of the Iraqi regular army at war's end. Also, Iraqi soldiers who surrendered to advancing U.S. forces would be formed into work units. Private contractors were recruited to help make that happen.
Military planners inside the government assumed, based on prewar intelligence, that some Iraqi units would switch sides during the war, while others would remain in their garrisons awaiting instructions from the U.S. postwar leadership. U.S. aircraft had been dropping leaflets for weeks calling on Iraqi forces to prepare for a brighter future by laying down their arms.
Looking ahead, members of the State Department's Future of Iraq working group on defense had developed a similar plan, concluding that former soldiers could provide valuable intelligence while performing reconnaissance and security missions.
On March 11, the Pentagon announced its intention to pay several hundred thousand members of the regular Iraqi army. The elite and politicized Republican Guard and Special Republican Guard, loyal to Hussein, would not be included.
Bremer soon declared in internal meetings that no Iraqi units would be reconstituted and that soldiers would not be paid. On May 23, he issued a formal order that dismissed the army and canceled pensions. The order covered many categories of Iraqis, among them war widows and disabled veterans who were senior party members, defined as any officers at the rank of colonel or above.
U.S. officials in Baghdad, including Garner and Bates, were startled.
"It came with formidable force and decisiveness, as the president's policy. Nobody was supposed to challenge it and that was that," said one U.S. official in Baghdad at the time. Another said: "There was never a discussion that I was involved in where we would disband the military. It caught me completely by surprise."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63423-2003Nov19?language=printer
Bremer's laws also created a situation where Iraqis lost control over their economy and resources, thus further alienating the Iraqi general population.
THAT is the moment things started to decline.
Then troops are overextended in the field. National Guard troops (never considered as full time front line forces) are also overextended.
Families start to weaken and break apart. Divorces increase. Suicides and domestic violence increase. You cannot place men, especially young men, into the hell of war without making sure you have their back - every step of the way.
Equipment is worn out far more quickly.
Injured men are treated wonderfully in theater, and then return stateside to a health care nightmare in many cases.
Injured National Guardsmen are housed in the south in NON-air conditioned huts.
There is NO excuse for such things, NONE.
All these things, and many more, added to the human cost of the war on all sides. Who knows the numbers of American troops killed or injured due to this incompetence by politicians ?
This isn't "supporting the troops", no matter how many times you zip up some flight suit or yell "hoah".
If you send men into battle, you do not do that lightly.
In war, once the first bullet is fired, you can count on one thing. Plans will have to be changed, as the situation changes on the ground.
That is war.
The quality of the great majority of the American military forces is very high. Most troops there are doing a HELL of a job, especially when lead by good officers with good unit discipline.
When that is not there, when those officers don't do their jobs properly, discipline starts to break down. Then , typically, you start to get young men acting in ways unbecoming to any military forces. That applies to ANY nation fighting , American , British, or Canadian.
That's the exception, and not the rule.
The military has done an outstanding job under difficult conditions. Any failure in this war cannot be laid on their shoulders.
I think any American lucky enough to meet an Iraqi vet , or one from Afghanistan, should shake their hand , and thank them for their service there.
I consider all these things to be "supporting the troops".
We owe them this effort, because these mistakes cannot afford to be repeated. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 6:40:29 AM | | We should hire the vets to be a private army like Blackwater, and then use that private army to force the government to increase veteran's benefits, starting with pay for the private army we hired. And if anyone mentions armed insurrection or whatnot we can claim something called Citizen's Privilege and argue the law doesn't apply to us because we said so, since that seems to work for the President and his bunch with their Executive Privilege. I think this is what we must do or the terrorists win. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 10:53:54 AM | Don't shoot guns... Don't buy bullets... When you buy bullets... You only make a rich man....
Richer...... | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 1:25:33 PM | | i do say that i admire and respect our troops. i also respect our older veterans, and i too, think veteran programs need to be more veteran- friendly, instead of government- geared for budgetary reasons. There are so many veterans that do need a little special help, in returning to civilan life. They did their job, now governments need to do their fair share with these veterans...........backlogs at VA hospitals etc. ( so the government says) so what, if war is the fix- all to all our economic woes, build more VA hospitals.. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 3:09:15 PM | yes.
I support them by volunteering where I can and Im an active member of the Patriot Guard Riders....for those who come home to be buried.
We need to be vigilant, regardless of our opinions of this war - remember, the warrior does not choose the fight, but fights regardless of the leader beating the drums of war. that alone deserves our respect, admiration and our willingness to pay them back whenever possible.
Service personnel are returning to a country that is rather ambivilent towards their service - simply put, we do not act like a nation at war. We must, for their sake and for honor's sake, not grow complacent and never again repeat the shameless treatment of our warriors as we did in Vietnam. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 3:39:30 PM | Spinner I concur with you about us not acting like we are a country at war and the ambivalence showed by a lot of people. Just noticed recently , up here in Canada , there seems to be more support, at least acknowledgement of that fact.
Have had so many people lately, asking me where I got my support the troops magnet on my car. Have started buying extra and handing them out. It is a very small thing I know, but does indicate there is starting to be more recognition that our troops are in harms way, and people want to show, albeit in a small way, that they care.
Had an email from a Brit soldier last week. He mentioned how well Americans and Canadians seem to support the troops here , after reading the forums, compared to back home. So guess its not just us over this side of the pond, failing to get the message out that we are behind them.
Montreal Guy, excellent post as usual . Would like to point out though that we Canadians have nothing to talk about when it comes to equipping the troops properly. It is a crime how we sent our troops to Afghanistan in Iftus open jeeps, jungle camoflage in a desert, no air transport ( remember the reports of Canadians stuck waiting beside run ways there for 2 days to "hitch a ride to their AO?"), the failure to update our CF18`s communication wise so Canuck pilots could give Canuck infantry support.
Then there is the great helicopter debacle. Makes my blood boil that it took 13 years for our government to order them, not deliverable for 2 more years. Then there is the Chinooks, we need to borrow them from the Dutch, guess where they got them from? A previous genius, PM here gave them to them, didnt replace them though. The same twit, got rid of our 2 tankers, so we cant fly our CF18`s across the Atlantic any way , had to pay for his luxury Challenger Jets I guess.
Just want to point out that we up here are very guilty of abusing our soldiers but nickel and diming them. At least now, we seem to have smartened up, lots of the required equi[ment is finally getting to them. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 3:51:10 PM | | I support that they should come home and stop putting their lives on the line for a rediculous war. come on home guys it's time to say fuck this, this is stupid I'm going home already ! | |
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edisto
| | Joined: 9/11/2007 Msg: 11 | |
| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 10:40:39 PM | yes, i support the troops, i keep up on current events, i protest the war and attend every peace rally i can, i belong to military families speak out and i will vote for the candidate that will get them home the quickest-
i think it was a disgrace that the veterans who oppose the war could not participate in the veteran day parades around the country…seems we want them to fight for us but we don’t want them to march if they have spoken out against the war-
i also think it was a national disgrace that our president who SAYS he supports our troops did not act as commander and chief and reside over the ceremonies at arlington cemetery-
when katrina hit mr bush was on vacation, today our war president missed an opportunity to show americans that we are together in supporting our troops, and where was he? on vacation in texas- enjoy it mr president…maybe congress is too lame to impeach you, but history will judge you for what you are! | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/12/2007 10:42:53 PM | I support the troops. I send out little care packages to my favorite troopers(family) and I send out packages and letters to those who have no one writing them. It is amazing how these little things pick up their moral.
I have been to 4 units homecoming this past year and one send-off. Every little bit helps and even if you do not know someone, how hard is it to wave and clap??
I thank Troopers whenever and wherever I meet them. Any US military reading this, this is for you. "Thank you for your service to our country" | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 4:58:58 AM | | Thank YOU mfrotyl.....I appreciate what you are doing...and so does every military man and woman....My son left for his 6th tour to Iraq today.....He is proud of his commitment to the ARMY, and we DO need to hear more positive reflections of what is going on over there....With Thanksgiving arriving soon...wouldn't it be nice to have peace for ONE day....I wish for just one day...fighting would stop, every man, woman, and child, sit down, and enjoy a day of togetherness....just a wish, but what a concept. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 5:19:02 AM | The only troops I respect right now are the ones who refuse to fight. Consciousness objectors.
Takes more bravery to refuse to kill than to blindly follow orders in this most immoral of illegal occupations.
What takes more love of country? To keep your head down and fall in line? Or to ask questions and have the courage to say the emperor wears no clothes.
Who can support Bush's killing of our soldiers so recklessly, our soldiers are dying to spare his own childish ego. So, in order to show your support for the troops, they need to be in harms way. Is that how you support the troops? Send them to a sandy death over weapons of mass destruction which never even existed.
Support the troops, impeach Bush and Cheney.
P.S. What about support the mercenary's? There's an untold amount of them over there too. | |
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yna6
| | Joined: 1/21/2007 Msg: 15 | |
| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 7:37:42 AM | Keeping on topic here....I've always tried to support troops and vets. I am against gov't removing benefits. I am against the substandard treatment many vets get from gov't. I am against those who cry out "baby-killers" and such to returning tropps. I am against those who are against this or almost any "war". If they are so against it, then run for office using the platform "End the War" and see how long it takes to convince a majority of their ideals. Having ideals is one thing...trying to enforce them down others throats is something else. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:03:16 AM | | GET MAD BABY:.....Do you think every soldier over there is killing?...My son has been depoloyed 6 times, and left again this morning...I can assure you...What he has done for the Iraq's that want peace is a lifetime of respect....not to mention how much some of them want peace. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:10:23 AM | | Lecturing to people what they "should" feel and think and believe, rather than asking them what they believe in and why, never works ...People arent going to lie about how they feel just so you have have everyone think and feel alike and not have to deal with your conscience about why YOU feel a certain way...No amount of political propaganda will change that so get off it | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:14:01 AM | It's their job. I'm all for building better veterans hospitals and giving them decent pensions. But if they didn't know they were signing up to risk life and limb in a war they should have paid better attention in History class. America has always fought to protect it's national interest. Right now that interest is oil. Providing the global economy a stable supply of oil, and providing the US economy a stable supply of cash for our national debt and adjusted rate mortgages. To do that we need a strong hand in the oil and money producing nations of the middle east.
If you don't want to be a part of it then don't drive a car, don't buy anything, don't borrow any money. America has lots of room you can go live in a shack in the woods like Ted Kaczynski and live off your own home grown turnips and onions. Or shut up and stop complaining about the war. | |
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Trwila
| | Joined: 11/15/2007 Msg: 19 | |
| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:25:04 AM | As a brit, with friends in the forces and a family history in the forces i dont agree whatsoever with the current deployments
But, i think they do a job very few people would be willing to do, risking life and limb for a paypacket barely above minimum wage, with awful conditions, poor equipment, and a joke of a compensation scheme.
So yes, i definitely support the troops, though not their masters. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:39:33 AM | As a Brit I would dispute the contention that troops earn barely more than a minimum wage. Of course they earn a lot more. Don't tell me they sign up just out of patriotism. But the figures have been skewed by some people calculating their salary on a 24 hour basis. If you google it, you will find that the new recruit earns just under £16,000 PLUS subsidies/benefits. This is not minimum wage. I agree though about the ridiculous compensation scheme and the equipment. I heard somewhere that our troops got the nickname 'the borrowers'. Also, lack of support for the cause should not be confused for lack of support for the troops themselves. Unfortunately some people are unable to differentiate.
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:44:24 AM | I absolutely support our troops !!!! The people that don't are just plain ole STUPID !!! Did our troops ask to be taken away from their homes and families. Do they want to go to only God knows where to get blow up, shot up and killed and maimed for life. Hell NO !!! But God Bless THEM !!!! They are doing what was asked of them by OUR government. Who we should NOT be supporting is the idiots that started this ridiculous war. I have to sy, I don't know how to answer these questions. So, for the person I'm replying to....I agree with you 100%. If I say something that doesn't pertain to what you have said , it is because I simply don't know any other way to get my opinion posted. So, please don't think for a second that I am saying the things I am saying to YOU. I hate war. But, I know that there are times when we have NO choice. I believe we had a choice this time and the choice should have been.....to mind our OWN business ! | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 9:53:13 AM | Does it seem as though the American government supports the troops? From unarmored hummers, Vietnam era body armor. Can you see the problems at Walter Reed and other vet hospitals, with the disgusting conditions wounded troops were housed and expected to heal in. With 1 in 4 of the homeless you meet on the streets are a vet. And with sending them over and over to fight in Iraq, some on their 6th tour, which is based on a lie of WMD, and now it's so obvious that it's about Peak Oil.
Tell me why I should support thugs who are not dissenting, as a true hero should, about being used to take another nations resources. Where innocent people do get killed.
Iraq occupation is a racket.
How do you feel about the phrase "Support Our Mercenaries." | |
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yna6
| | Joined: 1/21/2007 Msg: 23 | |
| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 11:28:35 AM | "Support Our Mercenaries." ...a quote from Get-Mad......
the key word there.. "OUR". If they are ours, maybe we should be looking after them a bit better. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 11:54:40 AM | Mercenaries are part of the problem with the privatization of war.
Known as Private Military Companies, corporations, complete with shareholders, a board of directors and head offices. This is war for profit, and it's not right. | |
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| Do you really support our troops? Posted: 11/19/2007 12:29:49 PM | | This was the number one reason why I left the army,I got tired of risking life and limb for an ungreatful,uncaring population.I sacrificed so much,personally and professionally and to me it wasn't worth it.Todays liberal generation has never known anything other then peace so the concept of defending our freedom far away from home just doesn't register in thier heads. There has always been war and there will always be war.If you are not willing or able to defend your country then your just occupying space till some else takes it from you just look at all of Europe during the second world war.You should thank god that in our liberal,pro gay,dope smoking,anti gun ect society that we as a nation can still produce brave,honorable,selfless men and women willing to put thier country and our way of life ahead of themselves.Freedom is only worth what your willing to pay.If you don't like George Bush and his polices thats fine,you shouldn't have elected him twice.At least you have the option to vote there are people in Afghanistan and Iraq that have died and will continue to die for that very privilidge you take for granted.If you can read this thank a teacher,if you read it in English thank a soldier. | |
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