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 Author Thread: OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
 MrBad_Kitty

Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 1
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 2:56:25 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory. American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon. The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.


"The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat."

Sorry! too busy torturing 18 years old in Guantanamo!
 Moto Monkey

Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 2
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 4:07:41 PM
The fence we are building some of the way along the border with Mexico should stop any Chinese submarines that try to get across. It is through Canada that we must be watchful, where there is no submarine stopping fence yet.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 3
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 4:44:36 PM
The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

Quite interesting, especially considering the Chinese have been boasting about the low detectability of their subs. The Song-class subs have been favourably compared to the US Los Angeles-class subs for quietness (by non-Chinese analysts), looks like they were right.

It will be even more interesting when all of their new Jin-class nuclear ballistic missile subs come fully on line.
 Romantic Heretic

Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 4
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 6:03:22 PM
Hmmm. Diesel-electric subs are notoriously hard to detect. If they keep their speed down the noise they radiate is so low you'd have trouble hearing them if you were riding on their hull.

Still, some one in the Chinese Navy has a delicious sense of humour.
 GhostKnight007

Joined: 11/4/2007
Msg: 5
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 6:07:42 PM
Isn't that sweet, the Chinese kid came out to play with that big kid.
 whothehellknows

Joined: 7/23/2006
Msg: 6
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 6:18:45 PM
China is not the backwoods country many people think it is. They have areas that are just as advanced as you would find in any modern society, and that is starting to apply more and more to their military. These are NOT the illiterate peasants we faced in Korea 50 years ago.

I am more surprised the sub surfaced and allowed itself to be detected. If they have that type of capibility, why show it?

I think I'll google this and see if I can find another article dealing with it. Sounds like BS to me. Not that they could not have done it, but that they would tip their hand so easily.
 MrBad_Kitty

Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 7
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 6:45:01 PM
its looks like China has been making other things besides McDonald Happy meal toys.
 Moto Monkey

Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 8
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 6:48:46 PM
I'm surprised a submarine made of lead floats. But I never did understand buoyancy.

China is doing a lot of our manufacturing now. They know how to make everything we know how to make. We send them so much money they can afford any technology they want, and they have cheap labor. The basis for the US being a superpower is our military. They are coming along to match us, maybe surpass us. It's not realistic to think of China as any less advanced or capable or powerful. They have come a long way. I wonder what they have in mind for the next 50 years. I know we don't think that far ahead.
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 9
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 7:34:02 PM
We need to boycott Chinese-made products to force American companies to bring our jobs home. I looked at an Apple for a laptop, and walked away because it was made in China. Instead, I am getting an Alienware laptop because they make the computers in Miami Florida and the sales/tech staff are also in Florida. It is my way of supporting a truly American company by declining to support Apple's making of computers in China.

We should stand up to the oppressive regime in China, and weaken their manufacturing base by refusing to buy their junk. Labor should not be cheap, nor should workers be abused as they are in China!!

If you can't find a US made product, go for the product made in a country that is a democratic nation. We must stand tall and fight for freedom in any way we can whether as a military person or a person going shopping. Shoes, for example: If you don't find American shoes, Italian shoes are just fine--Italy is a free country, and we should support Italy before we support China!! There are plenty of democratic nations to support.

PS. I don't blame the folks who leave China to be here in America!! I am happy to see people owning Chinese restaurants here in the USA and going for the American Dream. Hey, I may hate Chinese manufacturing but I like Chinese food--that can be made here by Americans originally from China!! These folks appreciate what freedom is all about as they did what they could to get here, to a free nation! By leaving China, these good folks took a stand for freedom and should be saluted.
 anApplepear

Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 10
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 8:54:52 PM
^^^designingwoman, there is a new book by Sara Bongionni called
A Year without "Made in China". The book tells how a American family decided not to buy anything that are "Made in China" for a year and have done so successfully. Here is the introductory page of the book:

http://www.rense.com/general69/madeinchina.htm

This week I bought a plastic filing container and a pair of winter boots that are Made in Canada, that make me feel good, for I am a Canada product supporter.
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 11
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 9:02:50 PM
Great article!! I have been doing well as far as not buying made in China.

I bought my Christmas cards in preparation for the upcoming season, and found my old standby Family Dollar still has a US company making all of their greeting cards. They are beautiful, and on the back there's a flag and "Proudly Made in the USA." After a while you get to know what companies make products from the USA or other democratic nations.

I've bought Canadian made items and felt good about that, too. As long as a country is a democracy, I have no objection to purchasing something from there.
 Moto Monkey

Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 12
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 9:09:32 PM
I plan on doing my part, too. I will not be buying anyChinese made submarines this year. It is the least I can do as a patriotic consumer. I will also refuse a Chinese prisoner kidney donation if I happen to need a transplant. Yes, these are great sacrifices but how could I live with myself if I were to compromise my principles?

Why is there no flag icon?



 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 13
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 10:10:14 PM
Well, perhaps a bit easier to do in peacetime than in war.

If it DID manage to do that totally undetected, it's going to shake up some people in the Navy.

Had it done the same in a war, it might have resulted in an entirely new definition of the word Chinese take-out. The loss of a US carrier for one submarine is a small sacrifice, from any enemies perspective.
 Pyro74

Joined: 4/23/2006
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/15/2007 11:45:29 PM
The Chinese have an extremely capable army. I read an article in Time magazine about how they were 7 years away from first strike capability.( that was 10 years ago)
 Gotapulse

Joined: 3/21/2005
Msg: 15
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 12:01:14 AM
Oddly enough , I think the odds are good that Beijing is telling the truth on this one. Other than thumping their chests , it makes no good sense to divulge your capability. In fact, from a tactical point of view it's downright stupid. I would think that the higher-ups in the Chinese military would rather the US not know what they were up against in case of hostilities. I mean to say that if your best defense is an offense and it hinges on the element of surprise, why would you squander it ? Beijing very likely DIDN'T plan this. If they did , the logic could only suggest that it's because this is out-dated technology for them anyway.

Or maybe they're letting their pride mess with their heads after all.
 petercentfla50

Joined: 5/11/2006
Msg: 16
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 2:22:22 AM
ha ha ha.........most of these chinese restaurants employ "slave labor", indentured servants who are here illegally working off their immigration fees to their "owners"

as for chinese advances in science, they bot from the best........it has nothing to do w guantanomo, everything to do with the clinton administration selling our secrets for campaign cash.....remember when gore was photographed at lunch with the "buddists" and then lied about it later, saying he never met them? or the new mexico incident where the asian-american scientist went to jail? how about the way clinton cut our military capability beyond bone so that when bush needed it years were neccessary to get up to even shadow strength? how about the fact that china is poised to send up a moon rocket? and didnt have to go thru 40 years of killing test pilots and astronauts to get there? anybody here ever wonder about that? or did your republican bashing agenda leave that out.......?


you can thank your nice looking ,nice speaking smooth charming southern bs artist in the white house where everything in the country was for sale....including the white house china and the lincoln bedroom.

now go reelect hilliam!.....


peter
 jumpinjohne

Joined: 7/9/2007
Msg: 17
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 2:50:47 AM
Oh boy, here we go again...Cold War 2!

I was a sub-hunter in the Navy around the time the Berlin Wall fell. American sub technology was far better than the Soviets', which meant it was quite a bit easier to hunt their subs. Of course, we practiced hunting our own. To read that the Chinese sub is comparable to an LA class sub...sends a shiver up my spine.

The subs I chased were each capable of wiping out 200 or more cities. Each one of 'em.

*sigh*

And to think I had a dream that we were stepping back from the brink a bit back in '89.

Mutual Assured Destruction as foreign policy again...gotta love it.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 4:58:41 AM

Beijing very likely DIDN'T plan this. If they did , the logic could only suggest that it's because this is out-dated technology for them anyway.

The Song-class is an older design, but not the oldest.

As for the strategic value of it goes, it can be very effective to reveal little bits of advanced capability to a potential threat that underestimates your capability especially when you are in that non-conflict but wary of each other phase in bi-lateral relations.

It forces them to question what else you might be able to do that they don't know of and requires them to factor in what they can't see and don't know.
 Hoop

Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 19
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 5:25:40 AM
More propoganda.
 Politically INCORRECT

Joined: 8/14/2007
Msg: 20
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 5:36:57 AM

Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

LOL...typical!!
 AlienSecrets

Joined: 5/9/2007
Msg: 21
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 5:40:26 AM
Eggzactly what Hoop said: More propoganda!

Some people seem to enjoy instilling fear in others - it's just wrong!!

Besides, I have it on v good authority that before we get the chance to completely annihilate our species (and most others on this planet) - there is an alien warship on its way that should settle us right down.

"We" have more to worry about from our own home grown 'terrorists'.

Fear and Fear Mongering is just a nasty thing and a useless, destructive tool.

In the meantime .. keep your eyes on the skies .. e.t. is comin! woohoo


A.S.is

(hey - so long as there are those who want to keep everyone afraid of the boogeyman - I am free to dream!)
 Gotapulse

Joined: 3/21/2005
Msg: 22
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 5:56:45 AM
mungojoe ,

lol...that's the long version of what I said, isn't it ?

While it appears that we agree , I might point out that obviously the US already knows about this particular class of submarine. That's to say that it makes it even less likely that Beijing planned this since they weren't giving away any particular secrets. Other than a demonstration of just how far any sub captain can push the limits of the sub's capabilities , it doesn't make any sense for the Chinese to risk an incident just to thump their chests. This isn't any secret technology or anything and I get the impression that if anything , it's pretty ho-hum in the submarine department. In other words, the US already knows about this sub , the Chinese know they know, and unless some newfangled cloaking shield a-la Star Trek was devised for it , there is no strategic advantage in having it poke it's head up in the middle of a US navy party.

Like I said though, if your advantage is that the enemy underestimates you , then the last thing you'd want to do is alert them to this fact. That's not the case here so that's why I'm buying Beijing's line on this one.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 6:33:25 AM

In other words, the US already knows about this sub , the Chinese know they know, and unless some newfangled cloaking shield a-la Star Trek was devised for it , there is no strategic advantage in having it poke it's head up in the middle of a US navy party.


Well, unless that sub had some sort of malfunction, I'd be willing to bet it was a deliberate act. That's a highly contested area, and the current Sino-American state of relations isn't really in much danger of escalating into an armed conflict. Both sides have far too much to gain with the current arrangement to risk losing it.

Since everyone knows about the Chinese sub and it's capabilities, not much is lost by this type of incident. It does keep the Americans guessing, and that's not a bad thing from their viewpoint.


19. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

SUN TZU
THE ART OF WAR


Like their space program, it's a good propaganda opportunity to suddenly go "Boo ! " .

The intended target isn't really the Americans , it's the rest of the world, and particularly the areas they are most interested in in those "Third World" places like Africa. Having something to crow about there , and to impress the locals with, serves China's interests well.
 MrBad_Kitty

Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 24
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OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 7:14:47 AM
petercentfla50, blaming Clinton for everything is like shooting the postman when it was the milkman who was actually banging your wife.....Bush Co deserves it's fair share of of the blame,too.....
We can thank our current commander and thief w. for allowing more of our manufacturing base to be in China (following in Clinton's footsteps). Shrub has done essentially zero to fix what is a major drain on our international competitiveness and gave the chinese their mfg base the needed. W, 4 more wars....

"China is a sleeping Dragon, and when it awakens it will shake the world" - Napoleon.
 Gotapulse

Joined: 3/21/2005
Msg: 25
OOPS, the uninvited Chinese Guest
Posted: 11/16/2007 7:23:26 AM
^Well MG, I considered all that. I realize that the waters in question are in the "warm zone" if you will. As for the propaganda aspect , well, that only works if they actually get the result they intended to get. If they don't , it backfires and the world wants to know why the Chinese are sending subs at the US navy (of course, that's the spin that would be put on it in the hypothetical scenario) That's the kind of thing that leads to international tension and while China isn't America's best friends as of late, it's still not a smart move. The US does still have the capacity to seriously damage China through a propaganda campaign and the hypothetical situation would make good fodder. The Chinese can't but know this. Basically it's a big risk for very little pay off.

Sure, I could be wrong and the Chinese government does have a nasty habit of defying common sense in favour of pissing contests. Nevertheless, I'm not surprised that a Chinese sub was in those waters or that it emerged in the middle of US naval exercises. That hardly makes it an innocent fluke but neither does it prove the Chinese didn't more or less stumble into the exercise.
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